Holy thread hijack, Batman!
Not to worry.
The comments last night got me thinking about dispersion, and about the fact that this unique situation is one in which poor vertical dispersion is a plus. So, I've been re-thinking my design with an eye toward selecting a tweeter that has horrible vertical dispersion but otherwise wonderful performance. So I started focusing on ribbons and AMTs. I've had some great ribbons in the past that I really liked; I have no experience with AMTs.
From the ribbon angle, Raal makes some pretty special ones. The 70-10 is perfect other than the fact that the recommended crossover point is at 2800, which means I probably still have to use a midrange. The 140-15 solves that problem by giving me a crossover point as low as 1600, which would eliminate the need for midrange.
As I investigated the Raals, I noticed that people like to pair Accuton ceramic mid-woofers with them, and claim to have great results. The Accutons certainly have some very nice specs, but I haven't actually heard a ceramic driver before. But the Accuton/Raal pairing seems to get good marks.
This is a very different approach than I had been thinking. While the Accutons and Raals are more than I was planning to spend on tweeters and woofers, they might allow me to eliminate the cost of the midrange drivers and solve my tri-amping conundrum. So that's an intriguing solution.
Does anyone have any thougths on using those drivers in studio monitors? Would there be any problem placing the Accuton beside the Raal, rather than below it?
Not to worry.
The comments last night got me thinking about dispersion, and about the fact that this unique situation is one in which poor vertical dispersion is a plus. So, I've been re-thinking my design with an eye toward selecting a tweeter that has horrible vertical dispersion but otherwise wonderful performance. So I started focusing on ribbons and AMTs. I've had some great ribbons in the past that I really liked; I have no experience with AMTs.
From the ribbon angle, Raal makes some pretty special ones. The 70-10 is perfect other than the fact that the recommended crossover point is at 2800, which means I probably still have to use a midrange. The 140-15 solves that problem by giving me a crossover point as low as 1600, which would eliminate the need for midrange.
As I investigated the Raals, I noticed that people like to pair Accuton ceramic mid-woofers with them, and claim to have great results. The Accutons certainly have some very nice specs, but I haven't actually heard a ceramic driver before. But the Accuton/Raal pairing seems to get good marks.
This is a very different approach than I had been thinking. While the Accutons and Raals are more than I was planning to spend on tweeters and woofers, they might allow me to eliminate the cost of the midrange drivers and solve my tri-amping conundrum. So that's an intriguing solution.
Does anyone have any thougths on using those drivers in studio monitors? Would there be any problem placing the Accuton beside the Raal, rather than below it?
I'd visit a Guitar Center Music Store and take a look see what the state of the art is for mixing desks.
IMO at the budget end >just buy a used set of the ubiquitous active ( 3 x LM3886) BEHRINGER TRUTH or see the new JBLs (class D)good bang for buck and easy to offload if you get ever tired of em. AFAIK both have good reviews. At the top end would be some Genelec offerings.
Sorry to say DIY at this spectrum is a dead end unless youre very very good AND your time is worthless. (almost mutually exclusives.) I'd personally consider DIY / modding up a pair of 12" 2way econowaves' (as booth / stage monitors) these would be useful to have laying around for "Hi-Fi sound reinforcement" tho.
IMO at the budget end >just buy a used set of the ubiquitous active ( 3 x LM3886) BEHRINGER TRUTH or see the new JBLs (class D)good bang for buck and easy to offload if you get ever tired of em. AFAIK both have good reviews. At the top end would be some Genelec offerings.
Sorry to say DIY at this spectrum is a dead end unless youre very very good AND your time is worthless. (almost mutually exclusives.) I'd personally consider DIY / modding up a pair of 12" 2way econowaves' (as booth / stage monitors) these would be useful to have laying around for "Hi-Fi sound reinforcement" tho.
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RAAL + Accuton + ScanSpeak... you might have seen Selah audio's model Tempesta.
Claimed to be their best selling design. $3300/pair
Selah Audio
Tempesta ? Selah Audio
Specifications
Design: 7" 3-way
Drivers: Scan-Speak Illuminator woofer, Accuton dome midrange, RAAL ribbon tweeter
Frequency Response: (+/- 2dB) 200hz-20K
Bass Extension: (-3dB) @ 45hz and (-10dB) @ 26hz
Impedance: 5 ohms/nominal, 4 ohms/minimum
Sensitivity: 85.5dB
Suggested Power: 40-150 watts/channel RMS
Dimensions: 22"(H) x 9"(W) x 14.8"(D)
Weight: 40 lbs.
Pricing: $3,295/pair to $4,295/pair (includes free shipping to the mainland USA)
-------------
The Lambda TD10M + Beyma TPL-150H design is 93db/watt
Claimed to be their best selling design. $3300/pair
Selah Audio
Tempesta ? Selah Audio
Specifications
Design: 7" 3-way
Drivers: Scan-Speak Illuminator woofer, Accuton dome midrange, RAAL ribbon tweeter
Frequency Response: (+/- 2dB) 200hz-20K
Bass Extension: (-3dB) @ 45hz and (-10dB) @ 26hz
Impedance: 5 ohms/nominal, 4 ohms/minimum
Sensitivity: 85.5dB
Suggested Power: 40-150 watts/channel RMS
Dimensions: 22"(H) x 9"(W) x 14.8"(D)
Weight: 40 lbs.
Pricing: $3,295/pair to $4,295/pair (includes free shipping to the mainland USA)
-------------
The Lambda TD10M + Beyma TPL-150H design is 93db/watt
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how loud do you want to go or how much compression can you stand?
active monitors allows one have an EQ switch to shut off bass shelving and go louder than a 7" should normally go /adding a subwoofer or two.
or 3way another way than above.
active monitors allows one have an EQ switch to shut off bass shelving and go louder than a 7" should normally go /adding a subwoofer or two.
or 3way another way than above.
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Narrow dispersion is not equal to bad! 🙂 It can be a very good thing.
I've never heard an Accuton that made me want to stop buying anything else. The latest Cell drivers are very very interesting to me, but never heard one. I wish I had sponsors to buy drivers like that for me. 🙂
Take a look at the dispersion for the Vifa XT25/ScanSpeak R2604. Quite narrow and controlled, and would match well with a 4" midrange or larger mid-woofer. Also look at the sensitivity and power handling. 🙂 It's a real bargain say I.
The Raal ribbons are very highly rated but have a bit more distortion on the low end of the range vs. the Mundorf AMT's. May be completely inaudible. They are also more delicate than the Mundorf line, but also significantly less expensive and more widely received.
I suggest you try out a test cabinet with the XT25 and a 4" midrange. See how you like it. If you don't think it's the bee's knees, then you can do a fancier tweet. Actually I think the SS Be tweets have rather narrow dispersion too. Not sure right now.
Best,
Erik
I've never heard an Accuton that made me want to stop buying anything else. The latest Cell drivers are very very interesting to me, but never heard one. I wish I had sponsors to buy drivers like that for me. 🙂
Take a look at the dispersion for the Vifa XT25/ScanSpeak R2604. Quite narrow and controlled, and would match well with a 4" midrange or larger mid-woofer. Also look at the sensitivity and power handling. 🙂 It's a real bargain say I.
The Raal ribbons are very highly rated but have a bit more distortion on the low end of the range vs. the Mundorf AMT's. May be completely inaudible. They are also more delicate than the Mundorf line, but also significantly less expensive and more widely received.
I suggest you try out a test cabinet with the XT25 and a 4" midrange. See how you like it. If you don't think it's the bee's knees, then you can do a fancier tweet. Actually I think the SS Be tweets have rather narrow dispersion too. Not sure right now.
Best,
Erik
One of the today's trend for the near filed / mid filed studio monitors are MTM + sub in a box. You may want to check Barefoot (I own MM27) and Amphion, both are very popular among top professionals. They use cheap units, obviously. Barefoot's amp is Hypex, Ampheon's amp is their own design, but they say it is still not perfect. Controlled dispersion, phase accuracy and ultra fast bass response is their strength. Both would sound sterile for everyday music listening, and I' don't think they would sound good in uncontrolled room.
I also like Gaithain, which cardioid low freq design works very well. 901K sound very musical, and I love to own a pair.
I also like Gaithain, which cardioid low freq design works very well. 901K sound very musical, and I love to own a pair.
If you would go for digital crossover and your music source is the computer, I would recommend mastering EQ plugin on your computer with professional 8 ch DA converter. IMO, this configuration could sound better than minidsp for the same budget, if you already own fast enough computer. Also, depends on your budget, you’ll have the same quality of the sound as world class mastering studios.
Not all digital EQ sounds the same. The mastering grade digital EQ plugin such as Equilibrium (only $179) offers much more than ordinary consumer digital crossover products, also they are usually much more mathematically accurate in rounding, gain, dithering process. The digital FIR crossover is in my mac constantly draw around 40% of the processing power of i7 quad core even with 3 second latency. and it is not still the highest resolution setting. I don't think minidsp can handle that much FIR processing. Proper FIR processing is extremely heavy.
Not all digital EQ sounds the same. The mastering grade digital EQ plugin such as Equilibrium (only $179) offers much more than ordinary consumer digital crossover products, also they are usually much more mathematically accurate in rounding, gain, dithering process. The digital FIR crossover is in my mac constantly draw around 40% of the processing power of i7 quad core even with 3 second latency. and it is not still the highest resolution setting. I don't think minidsp can handle that much FIR processing. Proper FIR processing is extremely heavy.
Lojzek and LineSource have made driver suggestions that seem good to me - substantially more efficient than the 18WU. Note: the 18WU is overkill, in terms of low frequency extension. Since you'll be using a sub anyway, you could use satellites with higher cutoff, which grants you a lot more efficiency / dynamic capability.
Throwing a couple more high efficiency options out there:
Moral CAT 378 tweeter
Faitalpro-8pr200 midbass
93dB. 30cm tall. Less than $US 600 (total)
The Moral is a horn-loaded dome tweeter. It has a replaceable voice coil, as Lojzek mentioned. Low Fs and high power handling. I haven't used it, but was drooling over it as a candidate for a project recently. I note that it gets positive mentions of use in guitar amps and light PA, which sounds perfect for what you have in mind.
The Faital is a 8" driver which looks very smooth & suited to a 2kHz crossover. I haven't used it, but I do have the bigger 12FH520, which seems pretty good to me. Faital are generally regarded as among the better manufacturers when choosing PA drivers for home use.
OR...
Dayton Audio PHT1-6 Planar Horn Tweeter 6 Ohm
Faitalpro 12FH520
98dB. 50cm tall. Less than $US 700 (total)
The Dayton ribbons are used in this:
My DR200s - BillFitzmaurice.info
They seem to be extremely capable drivers for a good price. Caveat: I have no personal experience with these ribbons. I'm not sure if these 2 drivers would work well together, when listening at close range.
Note: with sealed satellites, you could have 2 sets of eq settings saved. For quiet listening, you could cross to the sub down low (50Hz?) and boost the LF of the satellites to be flat to there. For guitar playback, load different eq settings to bring the sub in higher - you're not going to care so much about perfect stereo separation when you're strumming along to your favourite Misfits tracks.
Throwing a couple more high efficiency options out there:
Moral CAT 378 tweeter
Faitalpro-8pr200 midbass
93dB. 30cm tall. Less than $US 600 (total)
The Moral is a horn-loaded dome tweeter. It has a replaceable voice coil, as Lojzek mentioned. Low Fs and high power handling. I haven't used it, but was drooling over it as a candidate for a project recently. I note that it gets positive mentions of use in guitar amps and light PA, which sounds perfect for what you have in mind.
The Faital is a 8" driver which looks very smooth & suited to a 2kHz crossover. I haven't used it, but I do have the bigger 12FH520, which seems pretty good to me. Faital are generally regarded as among the better manufacturers when choosing PA drivers for home use.
OR...
Dayton Audio PHT1-6 Planar Horn Tweeter 6 Ohm
Faitalpro 12FH520
98dB. 50cm tall. Less than $US 700 (total)
The Dayton ribbons are used in this:
My DR200s - BillFitzmaurice.info
They seem to be extremely capable drivers for a good price. Caveat: I have no personal experience with these ribbons. I'm not sure if these 2 drivers would work well together, when listening at close range.
Note: with sealed satellites, you could have 2 sets of eq settings saved. For quiet listening, you could cross to the sub down low (50Hz?) and boost the LF of the satellites to be flat to there. For guitar playback, load different eq settings to bring the sub in higher - you're not going to care so much about perfect stereo separation when you're strumming along to your favourite Misfits tracks.
DSP crossover software
Hi Plasnu,
That sounds like a good set up, what software do you use for the DSP crossovers and what DAC's do you use?
I use Fab Filter at the moment, have you tried that plug in?
Thanks in advance.
Alex.
Hi Plasnu,
That sounds like a good set up, what software do you use for the DSP crossovers and what DAC's do you use?
I use Fab Filter at the moment, have you tried that plug in?
Thanks in advance.
Alex.
Hi Alex, I heard Fabfilter is a good EQ, but have never used.
I use DMG and modified UR824 for the crossover. The output of WM8740 chips in the UR824 are connected to 600 ohm OPT directly. Actually, my whole music production setup is somewhat more complicated, a Mac Mini and a Macbook Pro are cascaded via Apogee Symphony and UR824, and...
I use DMG and modified UR824 for the crossover. The output of WM8740 chips in the UR824 are connected to 600 ohm OPT directly. Actually, my whole music production setup is somewhat more complicated, a Mac Mini and a Macbook Pro are cascaded via Apogee Symphony and UR824, and...
DIY studio in the GARAGE. But it is fully sound proofed and 4-8" thick Owens Corning 701 / 703 everywhere, so it is a rather serious home studio.🙂
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Plasnu, the PC-based crossover is intriguing. I looked into that many years ago, but the software wasn't there yet. It sounds like you're getting it to work pretty well.
I have an M-Audio Delta 1010 soundcard/breakout box, which has 10 channels of analogue out. My desktop PC is an i7 3.6GHz with 16 GB Ram, running 64-bit Windows 10. Would that be sufficient? Am I correct that all I would need to do is run the EQ and allocate one channel to each driver, with separate EQ settings for each of those channels to act as the filter? That actually sounds a lot like what I wish the mini-DSP did! Then I could simply set up a rack system to house my M-Audio breakout box and a few rack amplifiers. I suspect something like a lower-powered Crown would be more than adequate, and probably a step up from the minidsp plate amps/dsps.
Very interesting idea!
I have an M-Audio Delta 1010 soundcard/breakout box, which has 10 channels of analogue out. My desktop PC is an i7 3.6GHz with 16 GB Ram, running 64-bit Windows 10. Would that be sufficient? Am I correct that all I would need to do is run the EQ and allocate one channel to each driver, with separate EQ settings for each of those channels to act as the filter? That actually sounds a lot like what I wish the mini-DSP did! Then I could simply set up a rack system to house my M-Audio breakout box and a few rack amplifiers. I suspect something like a lower-powered Crown would be more than adequate, and probably a step up from the minidsp plate amps/dsps.
Very interesting idea!
Your computer should be more powerful than mine. 🙂
There are 3 things that you'll need.
1. EQ plugin. I would recommend DMG Audio Equilibrium or FabFilter that Alex uses. Those 2 are considered to be the best digital EQ plugins today.
2. A multi channel plugin host program, such as DAW. You may find free plugin host on the net for PC, but I'm not sure, because I'm a Mac guy, sorry. I just checked Sweetwater, and it seems like the least expensive DAW is Studio One for $24. Or if you would buy Steinberg or Presonus interface, you might get Studio One or Cubase for free.
3. SPDIF jumper cable or digital audio bus app, such as Soundflower (Mac only?). because you need to digitally connect your music playback app (iTunes, Tidal etc.) to plugin host, then send the signal to DAC
BTW, for amplifier, I personally would like to recommend digital amps for at least woofers, but it's all depends on the personal taste...
PS: I strongly recommend you should demo all of the software before purchase, because they might not work as it should be for unknown reason. It happens all the time!
New Tech:
If you decide to put extensive effort into DSP+amps, you could follow the genius team that developed Kii. A Kii style speaker with about $450/Kii in drivers can cover the full 20-20K range. The Kii cabinet style has large front round-overs for low diffraction, plus side-side 8" woofers for equalized stand-alone bass. The Kii also has a rear woofer which is DSP'ed to manage rear wall bass effects, which is probably "over the top" in DSP for your goals. You could wrap a sheet of sticky-vinyl around the front+sides to avoid wood finishing.
SBAcoustics 1" SB29RCD-tweet + two 8" SB23NRXS45-8 woofs + Satori MW16R-8 mid.
Old School:
Efficiency + Dynamics for music and Guitar Hero can be achieved with TD10M + TPL150H about $850/speak in drivers. The TD10M - TPL150H physical time alignment is very close (~8mm) and can be handled in the baffle bevel if a passive crossover circuit is used.
If you decide to put extensive effort into DSP+amps, you could follow the genius team that developed Kii. A Kii style speaker with about $450/Kii in drivers can cover the full 20-20K range. The Kii cabinet style has large front round-overs for low diffraction, plus side-side 8" woofers for equalized stand-alone bass. The Kii also has a rear woofer which is DSP'ed to manage rear wall bass effects, which is probably "over the top" in DSP for your goals. You could wrap a sheet of sticky-vinyl around the front+sides to avoid wood finishing.
SBAcoustics 1" SB29RCD-tweet + two 8" SB23NRXS45-8 woofs + Satori MW16R-8 mid.
Old School:
Efficiency + Dynamics for music and Guitar Hero can be achieved with TD10M + TPL150H about $850/speak in drivers. The TD10M - TPL150H physical time alignment is very close (~8mm) and can be handled in the baffle bevel if a passive crossover circuit is used.
Attachments
Another suggestion to further complicate -- If I wanted something for listening close up, I'd be eyeing small drivers that can fit cloise together so I wouldn't have to hold my head position in a vice, or better, use a coaxial. And if you want it with pro level drivers, too, then maybe look at Diysoundgroup's Volt coaxial speaker. Design is already done, even kits I think. Response measurements look quite good including polar and it's said to sound extremely good (haven't heard it in the flesh myself).
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Good stuff. I have SAMPLITUDE, so I think I'm set for a DAW.
The challenge, I think, is that it sounds like these EQ plugins have to operate from within the DAW, which means that anytime I want to listen to music, I have to send it through SAMPLITUDE. That's not ideal. For example, if at some point someone opens Windows Media Player and plays AWOL Nation, and they don't open the DAW, I'm running the risk of massive bass going straight through to my tweeters or something like that. Maybe that's avoidable, but it seems like it's starting to get pretty complicated. As much as I like the idea, it would be nice to have an EQ app running in the background that takes care of business without the DAW angle. Maybe the software still isn't there yet?
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