Cone sag is a very real, commonly acknowledged phenomenon, with prosound sub drivers.
15"-18" are defintely susceptible, don't know about smaller drivers.
I found some decent engineering data, a formula for assessing cone saq, tha i can't find how i saved.
So here's the best I can offer...a cut from Eargle's classic handbook...
I can also say, from asking BMS engineers if I should be concerned about cone sag,,,,
.... the answer was drivers can't help but decenter their resting position over time, when horizontal. That ideally, drivers would play 24/7 continuously !!
15"-18" are defintely susceptible, don't know about smaller drivers.
I found some decent engineering data, a formula for assessing cone saq, tha i can't find how i saved.
So here's the best I can offer...a cut from Eargle's classic handbook...
I can also say, from asking BMS engineers if I should be concerned about cone sag,,,,
.... the answer was drivers can't help but decenter their resting position over time, when horizontal. That ideally, drivers would play 24/7 continuously !!
H mark100,
thank you for the reply.
Kindest regards,
M
thank you for the reply.
This is not what I disputed, anyone who had some physics will understand the effect of gravity. My inquiry was about support for the the claim that (emphasis supplied):
as I have never seen such data. In other words, is the (alleged) suspension failure a fact, and even if so, does it manifest itself during the driver's lifespan? Does, e.g., Danley - to give a pro-sound driver application - advise to rotate the Unity/Synergy so that the suspension on the bottom and top drivers are not ruined?
Kindest regards,
M
Danley can't really rotate, like in their TH subs for example, unless upside down when in storage.
AC/DC made the EV mt4 subs popular, and my understanding is guys learned to rotate them to avoid issues.
I made a low voltage, DC gravity offset switchable when not in play, for my PPSL subs with horiz 18"s.
It has as proven to work well over about 6 years now. Keeps the cones "gravity free".
Are drivers "ruined" by cone sag? I guess we need a definition of ruined huh?!
AC/DC made the EV mt4 subs popular, and my understanding is guys learned to rotate them to avoid issues.
I made a low voltage, DC gravity offset switchable when not in play, for my PPSL subs with horiz 18"s.
It has as proven to work well over about 6 years now. Keeps the cones "gravity free".
Are drivers "ruined" by cone sag? I guess we need a definition of ruined huh?!
Hi mark100,
Nope, https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ruin
Kindest regards,
M
Well, that is my reason against the term "ruin", as I did not find any instructions to rotate the SH50 or SH60 within its enclosure in the manual.
H, ha, how did you determine the voltage needed to return the cone to the neutral position?
Nope, https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ruin
Kindest regards,
M
Hi m,
this guy got me started me on how to determine the voltage needed. https://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,166841.msg1538797.html#msg1538797
He was correct, with 0.6v for one driver. I just needed it to work for 2 drivers, one inverted from the other. No biggie to work out.
You might see, if you go thru that linked thread, I questioned Ivan about horiz placement in the DSL boxes...and got no response, which kinda says it all 😉
Hi mark100,
interesting, I was thinking about some means of referencing the neutral position of the driver's cone and then use variable power source to return it to the referenced position.
Kindest regards,
M
interesting, I was thinking about some means of referencing the neutral position of the driver's cone and then use variable power source to return it to the referenced position.
Kindest regards,
M
Ok, I´m on the tip of the iceberg, starting to undetsrand why people tend to leave horns construction alone... So many variables!
I get a headack just from thinking about.
-Where is this perfect compression driver+Horn who together can go down to 120hz but without being 3meter long? Can´t we just throw the lows of physic out of the window?
-If crossing lets say a BMS 4592 at 350hz where would I find a woofer speedy enougth to intigrate seemlesly with the commpresion driver? it means crossing in the meaningful male voice territoy, that will be probably a bad idea.
-How did the Tune audio Epitome got away with a relativly norrow horn, asymetrical so it seems.
-Do we need to regard the opening of the horn "mouth" as the actual "virtual" membrane area (in the case of tune audio-6000cm2)? is there no better way Physically to time alligne the tweeter.
So many quastions... too many variables, I`ll just buy headphones and be done it .🙂
I get a headack just from thinking about.
-Where is this perfect compression driver+Horn who together can go down to 120hz but without being 3meter long? Can´t we just throw the lows of physic out of the window?
-If crossing lets say a BMS 4592 at 350hz where would I find a woofer speedy enougth to intigrate seemlesly with the commpresion driver? it means crossing in the meaningful male voice territoy, that will be probably a bad idea.
-How did the Tune audio Epitome got away with a relativly norrow horn, asymetrical so it seems.
-Do we need to regard the opening of the horn "mouth" as the actual "virtual" membrane area (in the case of tune audio-6000cm2)? is there no better way Physically to time alligne the tweeter.
So many quastions... too many variables, I`ll just buy headphones and be done it .🙂
What speed does your woofer need? 30km/h? And how ‘high end’ gets away with this bare nonsense? Have faith. Don’t trust your sceptic side. Let your ears be fooled by an appropriate price tag, some voodoo language and the complete absence of any kind of objective reference (aka measurements).
There is no perfect speaker of any kind. You have to pick your compromises.
Bill Fitzmaurice was one of the earlier ones I remember seeing push things beyond where classic horn theory suggests.
https://billfitzmaurice.info/index.html
As mentioned earlier, Synergy/Unity (tapped horns) are often smaller also.
It is typical to trade some sensitivity or frequency response smoothness for smaller cabinet/horn size.
Sophisticated horn modeling software is most people's route to these kinds of designs now. With it you can try various configurations and see their affect. Without it, it's going to require more trial and error and understanding (or luck). The software can be daunting, but for many it is faster and more productive than the other route. Though it also depends on how you like to learn and whether you enjoy building prototypes.
As always, if you just want to build something quickly, you're much better off starting with a proven design where someone else has done all the design work.
Here's a thread that covers some similar ideas:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/full-range-horn-system.257502/
There are many more on diyAudio that deal with horn designs.
There are quite a few speakers that cross in that region (most of the newer Martin Logan hybrid electrostatics do so successfully, and their driver matching is at least as difficult). But if you don't want to, that's your preference.
To physically time align drivers, the source is typically close to the voice coil, though often not be precisely there. Old horn designs were most often not physically time aligned (and not time coherent). Klipsch and Avantgarde are good examples, so looking at Stereophile's step response plots for those is useful. Many speaker designers don't consider this a significant issue. The modern approach to the problem is to use separate amplifiers and DSP to compensate for the z-axis misalignment and higher order crossover disturbances.
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Sorry, that should have said "Synergy/Unity (multiple entry horns)"
Tapped horns are a different thing and more relevant to bass frequencies.
Tapped horns are a different thing and more relevant to bass frequencies.
Mattstat, first of all a huge thanks for taking the time to answer. I am literally swimming in new waters here and the amount of information is overwhelming.
I will take the time to learn and experiment... as for now I am living with a wonderful design of Troels Gravesen, but as I wrote before, I would like to leave the safety of buying a kit and force myself to learn it more deeply.
Thanks as well for the link!
Lately I'm having a habit of fighting Stereophile.com for their item reviewed, for example Borreson 2way=100,000$
This is all ********, the emperor new clothes story all over again. I know that, that's why I ended up here.
Walking through munich high end and listening, horns just do things differently... not all of them successful but the Tune audio epitome for example just throws such a beautiful stage, really sense of occasion with ease. I don't care how much it costs since I see it "naked" without the bling ... a machine that I'd like to learn and understand.
I will give it time
I know what might cheer you up a bit. In Klang+Ton 1987 Nr. 1, Nr.2-3; Nr. 4 and Nr.6-7 there is a 4 part article called "Am Anfang war das Horn" presenting horn loudspeakers theory.
Not so long time ago a member of forum offered a link to his magazines collection where there were all of these magazine issues but Nr.1.
Not so long time ago a member of forum offered a link to his magazines collection where there were all of these magazine issues but Nr.1.
Hi, it was likely combination of room acoustics and positioning, as well as directivity and possibly other features of the speaker. It might be that you would not have it in your place, or you could with any small enough reasonably good speaker you can listen at close enough proximity, small enough listening triangle 🙂
Speaker needs to be problem free in sense that it sounds good overall, dynamics, extension, no resonances, stuff like that. These don't dictate a horn speaker yet. Stereo image quality changes with how far you listen at, there is shift in perception at some distance from speakers when brain locks in to the phantom image and basically suppresses the local room, now you hear whats on the recording. Take a step or two back and it shifts back where local room has much more significant effect on the perceived sound.
I call this audible critical distance, and speculate it was likely further out in the room with the speaker you liked, than with other rooms and speakers with lower DI around some important midrange bandwidth that is responsible for this audible shift. I speculate you would get your sound with various kinds of loudspeaker systems as long as they are good enough and listening distance is short enough.
If you cannot adjust listening distance, then your speaker and room acoustics must play together so that sound is to your liking at listening spot, basically you need to know where the audible critical distance is and where you want it. Speculating from hifishow pictures in general I'd say most if not all seats are too far, beyond critical distance. I suspect in this particular case critical distance was far enough into room so you ended up listening close enough for the good sound.
Important thing here is that you must know which side of critical distance you are listening at in order to fairly evaluate quality of stereo image. If you take time and find this audible critical distance with some speakers you have at home, you'd learn which side has the sound you look for and whether my post has relevance to you. Now you know what the distance is, how both sides sound like, which one you prefer and can evaluate if you need better speakers or acoustic treatment or what, to manipulate the system to your liking. The epitome could be wrong speaker for your room, but if you know the critical distance you can kind of evaluate if it is or not. More over, experimenting with the critical distance you'd learn more of what you actually like, how your room performs regarding it and reason what kind of a speaker could work best, in your room, for your preference.
Have fun listening! 🙂
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Seems like there is tons of matirial written on the subject, thanks for the hint!
I just came across this beauty as well, from Meye-Tonaparate
thank you tmuikku for your insight
regardles of which is has the right answer, horn or dynamic drivers I would just like to relive in my livingroom some revelation I had with the tune audio and western Electric that I listened to this year. I tooked a small video of it, I was really floored by it.
In the whole I agree, what will be a loudspeaker without the right room and acoustics? a fish without water…
Seems to sound great 😀 got some directivity right there. Recorded with phone? Is it mono setup?
Listened with phone, sounded great, doesn't sound like it was a recording of loudspeaker playing a recoding 😀
Listened with phone, sounded great, doesn't sound like it was a recording of loudspeaker playing a recoding 😀
Sounded amazing!, a 97 year old speaker, playing a vinyl record, recorded by myself on my Samsung galaxy, through all this one can still get the presence and speed and ease this speaker gave. I think it was a mono recording...
Any way an easy best of show
Any way an easy best of show