Btw, similarly to what you're saying, I've exchanged a couple of PMs with debk, who considers the Bottlehead SR45 (1.7wpc) to be incredible when paired with the relatively less efficient Blumenstein Orca Deluxe (89db) ($700/pair).
I trust her opinion on amps because she's built projects from several different designers -- the Tubelab SE 300b (which she really likes), Scott17's KT88 (which she also really likes with the Orcas), and the Bottlehead Paramount (2A3) -- and greatly prefers the Bottlehead designs. So, that's why I'm leaning toward Bottlehead right now.
Sorry, I'm a naysayer. Paul Joppa (Bottlehead's designer) has provided us with a useful rule of thumb for pairing amps and speakers. Joppa's Rule states that in a "typical" listening space an amp speaker combo (each channel) should be capable of producing 102 dB. SPL peaks, at 1 M. distance. Yes, that's what it takes for any sense of realism, when listening to large scale orchestral material. The "life" of music is in the transients. Even with reasonable efficiency, some power is needed. Work it out and you'll see 94 dB. sensitive speakers need 8 WPC.
Please don't spend a fair amount of "dosh" and end up dissatisfied.
Please don't spend a fair amount of "dosh" and end up dissatisfied.
Sketch out the size of your listening room with the best speaker placement options. Visualize the largest speakers you would put in your room. Tall & narrow? Classic golden ratio box? Open horns or fully enclosed?
Download one of the free speaker room placement programs like Baffle Edge Diffraction Simulator by Jeff Bagby Version 1.20, and run a few sims to understand wall and floor interaction. ALSO think about controlled directivity horn/waveguide patterns in your room which push more of the sound to the listener and less bouncing around the room. 90Horizontal x 40Vertical. 60H x 40V. 60Degree round. Finalize your listener and speaker placement locations. Post your goals.
NOW you have the info to get good speaker recommendations.
Personally, I would spend the $3500 on high'ish efficiency speakers, and NEW 24b/96Khz high definition digital music files which you run off your PC. FLAC format has free hi/def player S/W. You could build great speakers which only require straight cuts and a router. If you do not want to build, Craigs list for efficient Klipsch Cornwall or Heresy, Altec, GPA(OK speaker company), older JBL monitors(15"-18" woofers).
Download one of the free speaker room placement programs like Baffle Edge Diffraction Simulator by Jeff Bagby Version 1.20, and run a few sims to understand wall and floor interaction. ALSO think about controlled directivity horn/waveguide patterns in your room which push more of the sound to the listener and less bouncing around the room. 90Horizontal x 40Vertical. 60H x 40V. 60Degree round. Finalize your listener and speaker placement locations. Post your goals.
NOW you have the info to get good speaker recommendations.
Personally, I would spend the $3500 on high'ish efficiency speakers, and NEW 24b/96Khz high definition digital music files which you run off your PC. FLAC format has free hi/def player S/W. You could build great speakers which only require straight cuts and a router. If you do not want to build, Craigs list for efficient Klipsch Cornwall or Heresy, Altec, GPA(OK speaker company), older JBL monitors(15"-18" woofers).
Huh. Room simulators. Thanks! Didn't know about those, and will *definitely* start playing around with it. Now we're cooking with wood!
Part of my issue with the Paradigms has been getting good room placement. I've worked on it for about 20 hours in my 20'L x 12'W x 8'H living room and found some combinations that work way better than others. Structural reverberation of mechanical energy from the speakers has also been an issue, which I've improved through isolation and absorption (including hockey pucks, which are *really* difficult to find in OK).
There's a HK Citation II on Ebay for ~$1,400, in all its Cold War glory. Definitely a risk but could be fun. Would be interested to hear it drive my Paradigms.
Part of my issue with the Paradigms has been getting good room placement. I've worked on it for about 20 hours in my 20'L x 12'W x 8'H living room and found some combinations that work way better than others. Structural reverberation of mechanical energy from the speakers has also been an issue, which I've improved through isolation and absorption (including hockey pucks, which are *really* difficult to find in OK).
There's a HK Citation II on Ebay for ~$1,400, in all its Cold War glory. Definitely a risk but could be fun. Would be interested to hear it drive my Paradigms.
Pass that specimen by! It has been modified, not refurbished.
The Cit. 2's designer, Stu Hegeman, was a genius. You augment, not alter, such a fine mind's work. A stock or correctly maintained "Deuce" has 3X 12BY7s in the small signal complement of each channel. Jim McShane shows how it's done.
My advice -
Since you're thinking 45's, consider buying a pair of Fostex FE208E Sigma drivers and building the horns that are suggested by Fostex. With 2W you will be able to reach 103db with pretty darn good bass. I'm currently running a Korneff 45 integrated amp into a pair of 8" Fostex horns that are only a tiny bit more efficient than the sigmas and it will play LOUD. The Fostex horns are not hard to build but it is a lot of wood and a lot of work. They are heavy but worth it. Along with that you will need a decent horn tweeter and there are quite a few choices, not all insanely expensive.
There are LOTS of tube line preamp and phono stage designs here. Thorsten's el cheapo phono pre is a good 'un. Those would make good first tube building projects if you want to get your feet wet. You can incorporate the tube phono into your system without selling anything.
On the turntable front, score a used Lenco, buy a 12" Jelco tonearm and a Denon DL103, some Cinemag transformers, build a plinth and and smile. If that sounds like a pain in the kiester, save up and mount a Trans Fi terminator tonearm on a Technics SL1200 turntable. It's a state of the art air bearing tonearm for peanuts. I own it and it is world class.
Going low power triode is a commitment and your entire system must be designed as a whole. I would start with phono stage and turntable until you decide whether you want to commit to a dedicated low watt/high efficiency system.
Since you're thinking 45's, consider buying a pair of Fostex FE208E Sigma drivers and building the horns that are suggested by Fostex. With 2W you will be able to reach 103db with pretty darn good bass. I'm currently running a Korneff 45 integrated amp into a pair of 8" Fostex horns that are only a tiny bit more efficient than the sigmas and it will play LOUD. The Fostex horns are not hard to build but it is a lot of wood and a lot of work. They are heavy but worth it. Along with that you will need a decent horn tweeter and there are quite a few choices, not all insanely expensive.
There are LOTS of tube line preamp and phono stage designs here. Thorsten's el cheapo phono pre is a good 'un. Those would make good first tube building projects if you want to get your feet wet. You can incorporate the tube phono into your system without selling anything.
On the turntable front, score a used Lenco, buy a 12" Jelco tonearm and a Denon DL103, some Cinemag transformers, build a plinth and and smile. If that sounds like a pain in the kiester, save up and mount a Trans Fi terminator tonearm on a Technics SL1200 turntable. It's a state of the art air bearing tonearm for peanuts. I own it and it is world class.
Going low power triode is a commitment and your entire system must be designed as a whole. I would start with phono stage and turntable until you decide whether you want to commit to a dedicated low watt/high efficiency system.
Do you mean this cabinet, which is suggested for the FE208E Sigma at Madisound?
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While I try to find a room simulator for Mac, in the meantime I'm interested in the idea of a higher wattage tube amp like the Harman Kardon Citation II. Many of the models I've found through web searching cost tens and even hundreds of thousands of dollars!
Any suggestions for a decent ~$2,000 tube amp (modern, vintage, or kit) that puts out minimum 50wpc, preferably up to 100wpc or more?
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Another good program is REW (Room Equalization Wizard).
REW - Room EQ Wizard Room Acoustics Software
Free, but you have to join Home Theater Shack to download it.
With a PC and microphone (or RadioShack SPL Meter) you can readily see how changes in the room effect acoustics.
REW - Room EQ Wizard Room Acoustics Software
Free, but you have to join Home Theater Shack to download it.
With a PC and microphone (or RadioShack SPL Meter) you can readily see how changes in the room effect acoustics.
Yes, that is the cabinet. A high power tube amp will not sound good with that speaker. A 2A3 SET amp will get you 106db, a 300B would get you 109. You don't want the damping factor a push pull higher power tube amp with 20+ db of feedback will give you. If you want to go push pull, go triode without feedback. You don't have to go with spendy directly heated tubes, a push pull triode EL34 with no feedback would be super sweet and it would ROCK.
I have a pair of Heathkit Williamson W4 mono tube amps that I'm converting to push pull 6B4G's a la Tubecad's "Einstein Amplifier". I bought the amps about 20 years ago for a hundred bucks each (they go for a lot more now) and they've served me well but need an overhaul so I'm going to get ten watts of push pull DHT goodness out of them. You can still find the Williamson amps on eBay most of the time. It's an easy conversion and would be a very cool amp for the Fostex horn.
I have a pair of Heathkit Williamson W4 mono tube amps that I'm converting to push pull 6B4G's a la Tubecad's "Einstein Amplifier". I bought the amps about 20 years ago for a hundred bucks each (they go for a lot more now) and they've served me well but need an overhaul so I'm going to get ten watts of push pull DHT goodness out of them. You can still find the Williamson amps on eBay most of the time. It's an easy conversion and would be a very cool amp for the Fostex horn.
Thanks. I'm considering different avenues, the purpose of a high wattage tube amp being to drive my Paradigms rather than commit to a totally new low wattage system. A SET system with efficient horns is more appealing but less realistic for budget/lifestyle constraints. Not that I wouldn't do it. Just trying to learn as much as I can for now.
You could lower your standards from the "ultimate" to just a very good, and likely better than any commercial offering you've ever heard amp.. And build something like the tubelab SE for $600 or so, and spend another few hundred building the fostex horns..
That's what I did about 10 years ago, and it's still one of my favorite systems.. (that's the one I mentioned w/ the full range horns and the two subwoofers).
I've spent MUCH more recently on bigger amps and better speakers, but I can honestly say, w/ my 39 year old ears, the system that costs 3x more doesn't sound much better! (it does get louder)
That's what I did about 10 years ago, and it's still one of my favorite systems.. (that's the one I mentioned w/ the full range horns and the two subwoofers).
I've spent MUCH more recently on bigger amps and better speakers, but I can honestly say, w/ my 39 year old ears, the system that costs 3x more doesn't sound much better! (it does get louder)
If you decide to keep your Paradigms (they ARE good speakers) and you're looking at spending in the 1500-2K range for a tube amp I'd avoid vintage amps unless they're cheap. Regardless of what some people will tell you the components (resistors and caps) and insulation in the magnetics degrade over time and those amps are 60 years old now. If I wanted to buy a tube amp instead of build (or have someone build one for me) at that price range I'd look at a pair of Atma-Sphere M60's or an Audio Research Classic 60. Both are in that price range on the used market and are the best sounding tube amps I've heard in that power range regardless of price. They are very different animals but both are very, very good.
I wouldn't discredit any vintage gear. Theoretically you could do what you want pretty easily. In my opinion if you don't have a ton of cash to blow at once then it is in your best interest to do things piece by piece until you finally have what you want.
You could purchase something like this: HH Scott 299B | eBay
....and if you are handy, for not much money you could get her working perfectly and reliably. Yes the bidding could go higher but still if you spent $500-$600 for a good tube amp that's a good deal. The remaining $2500 should be spent on the record player. This amp or any tube amp around 20watts should drive your current speakers until you save enough to get a more efficient pair. Then after you upgrade your speakers to something closer to 97db-103db/2.83v the HH Scott will sound even better Next step is save more cash and build the SET amp like you originally wanted to. I have good luck finding Klipsch products pretty cheap used around my parts.......I got my Heresy II's for $300 and some Cornwalls for $700. Both very nice speakers for the money and they are really efficient. I have the Heresy's hooked up to a Scott 299A and it sounds wonderful, even with my "budget" LP playback setup.
As Bob's counselor says, Baby steps.
You could purchase something like this: HH Scott 299B | eBay
....and if you are handy, for not much money you could get her working perfectly and reliably. Yes the bidding could go higher but still if you spent $500-$600 for a good tube amp that's a good deal. The remaining $2500 should be spent on the record player. This amp or any tube amp around 20watts should drive your current speakers until you save enough to get a more efficient pair. Then after you upgrade your speakers to something closer to 97db-103db/2.83v the HH Scott will sound even better
Next step is save more cash and build the SET amp like you originally wanted to. I have good luck finding Klipsch products pretty cheap used around my parts.......I got my Heresy II's for $300 and some Cornwalls for $700. Both very nice speakers for the money and they are really efficient. I have the Heresy's hooked up to a Scott 299A and it sounds wonderful, even with my "budget" LP playback setup.As Bob's counselor says, Baby steps.
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Oh man, I bet the Scott integrated on the Heresy's (or the Cornwalls for that matter) is one hell of a system. I got one for free from a buddy who was going to throw it away. I used it for a couple of years and passed it on to a friend of mine looking to get into tube audio. He sent it to Mapleshade audio to be restored and he still has it to this day and loves it to pieces.
I'm not discounting vintage gear, it's just that the higher end vintage stuff (Harmon Kardon, Marantz, McIntosh etc.) over the years have seen the prices for those components driven up to ridiculous price levels by vintage audio fetishists totally disproportionate in comparison to some more modern used gear that has (IMHO, of course) a much higher price/performance ratio.
That being said, if I ran across a Citation II at a garage sale I'd definitely send it to someone who knows all about it and have it lovingly restored to its former glory.
I'm not discounting vintage gear, it's just that the higher end vintage stuff (Harmon Kardon, Marantz, McIntosh etc.) over the years have seen the prices for those components driven up to ridiculous price levels by vintage audio fetishists totally disproportionate in comparison to some more modern used gear that has (IMHO, of course) a much higher price/performance ratio.
That being said, if I ran across a Citation II at a garage sale I'd definitely send it to someone who knows all about it and have it lovingly restored to its former glory.
It fills it's role nicely as my bedroom setup, really I find it to sound nicer than a lot of friends main systems who spent quite a bit more.
I have heard of such atrocities
I would have liked to have been in your position and picked one up for free. I did get mine for only $150 so not too bad of a deal. Tell me about it
, I first started out wanting some old McIntosh gear but the prices are outrageous.I don't mind refurbishing a vintage amp if the price is low enough. Those sorts of projects are always more difficult than they seem at first but also very rewarding. The HK Citation II that Eli mentioned seems to have a well documented history and community support to draw upon. That kind of documentation history and support is why I commute on a motorcycle that's a 60-year-old design. Maintaining and improving it is half the fun, plus there's a ton of information available and friendly folks willing to help.
Thanks for the recs on the Atma-Sphere M60 and AR Classic 60. They look like great products but are well above my budget, unfortunately.
Thanks for the recs on the Atma-Sphere M60 and AR Classic 60. They look like great products but are well above my budget, unfortunately.
I have seen both of those on the used market for less than 2K, sometimes much less. Patience, having cash in hand and willingness to put in an offer that you don't think someone will take can sometimes yield great rewards.
... build or borrow a good 24b/96Khz playback chain and listen to a few NEW 24b/96Khz_recordings of your favorite jazz & symphony standards.
The SNR and Dynamic Range tech numbers are impressive. The newest digital recording and mixing tech provide additional artistic range.
======
Analog long playing records and cassette tapes have a SNR of approximately 50 to 60 dB, with a theoretical max of 70db.
The SNR of the CD-DA is 96 dB. The Dynamic Range is 96 db.
The SNR of the DVD-A is 108 db. The Dynamic Range is 108 db.
The SNR of the SACD-DA is 120 dB. The Dynamic Range is 108 db.
The SNR of the 24b / 96Khz FLAC is 144 dB. The Dynamic Range is 144 db.
The best front ends and amplifiers can achieve SNR = 120db at half rated power.
Research tests show a 20db SNR floor is audible, and 40db SNR floor can easily be heard during silent passages.
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VERY BASIC 2-speakers in 20'W x 12'L x 8'H room simulation provides some rationale for controlled directivity speakers. Waveguide. Dipole. Cardiod. More audio energy directed to the listener, limiting excessive audio energy reflections around the room which could confuse the soundstage. Long wavelength bass equalization is more effective than reflected short wavelength high frequency equalization.
Controlled directivity plot from Geddes Summa illustrates what is possible with just a tweeter waveguide. A 3-way Synergy horn offers controlled directivity down to 200Hz.
That's why I still like:
Spend $3500 to buy/build new ~95db/watt efficiency controlled directivity 30-20Khz speakers.
Borrow/build a 24b/96Khz FLAC playback computer.
Now you can borrow/build a modest wattage tube amp for evaluation.
Look to the future:
Will your next media purchase be Vinyl or High-Def digital?
Controlled directivity plot from Geddes Summa illustrates what is possible with just a tweeter waveguide. A 3-way Synergy horn offers controlled directivity down to 200Hz.
That's why I still like:
Spend $3500 to buy/build new ~95db/watt efficiency controlled directivity 30-20Khz speakers.
Borrow/build a 24b/96Khz FLAC playback computer.
Now you can borrow/build a modest wattage tube amp for evaluation.
Look to the future:
Will your next media purchase be Vinyl or High-Def digital?
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