KP11520 said:
We gave up trying to prove that the difference is audible in an ABX test. Interesting is that there is a measurable difference in the output of the amp using different capacitors. It's just too small to be audible.
Listening was performed by various people with good hearing capabilities. If you're interested I could post links to the wav files we used to perform the ABX test with.
regards,
ravon
But what Dave just spent months doing is explain the audible difference of the said caps.
Are you saying the differences he heard were a figment of his immagination? (go back to the beginning of this thread and read it from the start)
NOW, Them's fightin words, SON! (I say that because I am one that hears a difference!)
I don't know what happens that some will swear they hear differences and some swear they don't, every time these subjects are brought up.
The cable and wire debate is even worse!
It can't be all about what people Ate for Breakfast, a Placebo Effect, Global Warming, Blood Type or even a Genetic Predisposition (well maybe this factor has yet to be discovered).
Enough of that!
Anyway! Here's another twist to try.... Let's say you want to use a 2.0uF Coupling cap. Take two 1.0uF coupling caps like the Radio Shack ones and put them in parrallel with one of each in the opposite direction and see if this could be the ultimate way! Cutting the desired value in half with two half value caps in parralllel with reversed polarity or direction. I think I doubled the work again! YIKES YIKES
And think of the mounting ramifications..... OK, I will shut up now!
Regards//Keith
Are you saying the differences he heard were a figment of his immagination? (go back to the beginning of this thread and read it from the start)
NOW, Them's fightin words, SON! (I say that because I am one that hears a difference!)
I don't know what happens that some will swear they hear differences and some swear they don't, every time these subjects are brought up.
The cable and wire debate is even worse!
It can't be all about what people Ate for Breakfast, a Placebo Effect, Global Warming, Blood Type or even a Genetic Predisposition (well maybe this factor has yet to be discovered).
Enough of that!
Anyway! Here's another twist to try.... Let's say you want to use a 2.0uF Coupling cap. Take two 1.0uF coupling caps like the Radio Shack ones and put them in parrallel with one of each in the opposite direction and see if this could be the ultimate way! Cutting the desired value in half with two half value caps in parralllel with reversed polarity or direction. I think I doubled the work again! YIKES YIKES
And think of the mounting ramifications..... OK, I will shut up now!
Regards//Keith
CApacitor Test Audibility
Keith,
Excellent retort! You are right; there are just far too many possibilities to be tested by hobbyists.
Ravon,
I will only suggest to you that if the ABX test and audibility is a concern that you feel warrants extended discussion, kindly, start another thread.
I stated early on in this thread how I "hoped" these test would progress. The results of these tests are empirical to me and only me! All others are welcome to seek their own Nirvana.
Nevertheless, I would like to read about the ABX test. Please, post a link.
If you are interested, you may privately email me and I will send you the names of some of the caps I believe you would be able to hear the difference.
Keith,
Excellent retort! You are right; there are just far too many possibilities to be tested by hobbyists.
Ravon,
I will only suggest to you that if the ABX test and audibility is a concern that you feel warrants extended discussion, kindly, start another thread.
I stated early on in this thread how I "hoped" these test would progress. The results of these tests are empirical to me and only me! All others are welcome to seek their own Nirvana.
Nevertheless, I would like to read about the ABX test. Please, post a link.
If you are interested, you may privately email me and I will send you the names of some of the caps I believe you would be able to hear the difference.
Question for Davet
Hi Davet, Thanks for your testing, and listening impressions! After reading about them, I purchased four of the RadioShack caps. I have the TrendsTA-10.1, how do I exactly install these caps? How do I remove the Bennics? I tried to gently lift the Bennics out and they didn't move, so I thought I better get some advice first. The only other thing I've done so far is to bypass the volume pot.
Thanks in advance!
Hi Davet, Thanks for your testing, and listening impressions! After reading about them, I purchased four of the RadioShack caps. I have the TrendsTA-10.1, how do I exactly install these caps? How do I remove the Bennics? I tried to gently lift the Bennics out and they didn't move, so I thought I better get some advice first. The only other thing I've done so far is to bypass the volume pot.
Thanks in advance!
soongsc said:
Let us assume that that is the case. Then there would be hardly no speaker at all which is good enough to use. And in that case there is indeed no worry at all with respect to the coupling capacitor.
Electronic. I did the measurements myself and it is in fact a very simple one. But if you want to give it a try, I can place a link to the two audio fragments representing the expensive capacitor case and the cheap elco situation. No problem.
I would be interested in seeing whether the measurable differences are acoustic measurements or electronics measurements only.
Regards,
Jacco
Basically, if you have a full range driver made speaker that goes to 20KHz, and the CSD drops at least 12db in the first 0.02ms or so above 1KHz, this would allow you hear the difference. For multi-way speakers, if you have a transient perfect design where all drivers are connected in phase with each other that meet this criteria, you will also be able to hear the difference.dekkersj said:
Yes, I would be interested. Probably what would be interesting is not letting us know which is which, and let us see if we can identify the which fragments belong to which cap. Don't know what kind of music you used, but the most obviouse kinds I find are those that have percussion type instruments. Especially cymbals.
soongsc said:
The best thing would be that you provide a piece of lossless material. Something of 10 seconds or so would do. I did it with some classical pieces. For example these two:
The "A":
test sample A
The "B": test sample B
And for those who want to know what the difference signal as function of time sounds like: difference signal between A and B
The capacitor-under-test was placed between the anode of a triode amplifier and the output of the circuit. Its main function was to block the DC and to pass through the signal.
Regards and good luck with your ABX,
Jacco
My pick would be the track 04. Both have different sonic signatures. Track 02 seems to have better detail, but since the overal image depth seems mixed, it does sound a bit fatiguing. Sounds like the commonly available yellow film caps. Track 04 is a bit smoother, instruments are a bit more distunguished, but on the soft side.dekkersj said:
I'm saying that we tested a number of different capacitors and that the differences were too small to be heard.KP11520 said:
If you hear differences in an AB comparison you should also hear differences in an ABX test where X is unknown. I see Jacco already posted some links to testfiles.
I wonder if you guys are able to point out differences between the testfiles and if you do so it would be nice if you tell me exactly in what specific parts of the sound you hear those differences.
I really don't know how to run ABX test. I just converted the file to WMA format and played it on my player which allows pluging in a USB flash disk. I don't plan to spend a whole lot of time resetting a system to convince each non-believer. The only thing I can say is when I listened to the tracks, I got the impression the polarity was inverted. So I switched the polarity and listened a few times of each and that resulted in my preference. If you wish to tell us which is which, fine. If not, it is also fine.dekkersj said:
I can tell you for sure the the headphone I have on my computer does not reveal music correctly.
If you want to send more files like this, I will listen to them.
soongsc said:
It's a matter of installing PC-ABX, selecting the A and B file and off you go.
If you think your headphones are a bottleneck, connect your PC to your audio system, if you think your soundcard is a bottleneck, use a good quality soundcard. If that's impossible, burn a CD and let someone else do the ABX switching.
Just comparing A and B is simply not enough.
OK guys, for me to buy into this, I would have to fly to Amsterdam (please tell me you are in Amsterdam) and hear it being played live on the system as it happened.
To me. hearing something through my PC (compressed or whatever) that was downloaded from ? and is representing what system ? and what conditions ? and more than likely lost all the noticeable nuances, is kind of like, "hearsay" in a court of law. Not admissible.
I am not saying that you did not hear what you did not hear, all I'm saying is via the PC is not the way I am going to be convinced. I just need to go to Amsterdam.
Just like we all need to go to Dave's house too. Maybe you would hear what Dave has been talking about all this time and we wouldn't hear in Amsterdam what you have been talking about today. Then we would have to put our efforts together to figure out why! Until then, we will probably have 2 polarized camps!
So where do we go first, Dave's or Amsterdam? I say Amsterdam! Know any good places for tourists?
BTW, the brass instruments were more edgy in "A" and the strings came forward more in "B" and obviously the brass sounded more natural or subdued maybe allowing the strings to be heard.
Regards//Keith
To me. hearing something through my PC (compressed or whatever) that was downloaded from ? and is representing what system ? and what conditions ? and more than likely lost all the noticeable nuances, is kind of like, "hearsay" in a court of law. Not admissible.
I am not saying that you did not hear what you did not hear, all I'm saying is via the PC is not the way I am going to be convinced. I just need to go to Amsterdam.
Just like we all need to go to Dave's house too. Maybe you would hear what Dave has been talking about all this time and we wouldn't hear in Amsterdam what you have been talking about today. Then we would have to put our efforts together to figure out why! Until then, we will probably have 2 polarized camps!
So where do we go first, Dave's or Amsterdam? I say Amsterdam! Know any good places for tourists?
BTW, the brass instruments were more edgy in "A" and the strings came forward more in "B" and obviously the brass sounded more natural or subdued maybe allowing the strings to be heard.
Regards//Keith
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