So you are saying this type of speaker works similar to Sonic Impact Soundpads?
http://www.si5.com/products.php?pID=4024
http://www.si5.com/products.php?pID=4024
Daveis, yes, from my experiments, the balsa traiangle produced sound not from fast rotation along it's axis, but from VIBRATIONS moving from the motor up through the bearing and in to the balsa wood, producing sound waves.
How can we be sure, even with precision engineering, that this isn't the case with the real and actual Planot prototype?
Even though there were minute and sometimes large movements in the motor of the hard drive, there was no where near enough force generated from a ''spinning/rotating triangle'' to chop through the air and produce sounds.
This type of motor system - dual voice coils in a magnetic field will do two things :
1. try and leap out of it's bearing(I've seen this happen)causing great stresses to be present at the bearings.
2. Vibrate like the coil in a typical moving coil loudspeaker only left and right instead of in and out.
This vibration will naturally want to convert anything attached to it into sound waves modulated by the electrical signal applied to it.
So,............HOW DOES THE PLANOT REALLY WORK????????
How can we be sure, even with precision engineering, that this isn't the case with the real and actual Planot prototype?
Even though there were minute and sometimes large movements in the motor of the hard drive, there was no where near enough force generated from a ''spinning/rotating triangle'' to chop through the air and produce sounds.
This type of motor system - dual voice coils in a magnetic field will do two things :
1. try and leap out of it's bearing(I've seen this happen)causing great stresses to be present at the bearings.
2. Vibrate like the coil in a typical moving coil loudspeaker only left and right instead of in and out.
This vibration will naturally want to convert anything attached to it into sound waves modulated by the electrical signal applied to it.
So,............HOW DOES THE PLANOT REALLY WORK????????
I have talked with the designer about a month ago. He offered me a chance to listen to the product and do a review of it. I believe I could do a fair and unbiased review as I've some exposure to commercial and home built speakers. When the weather gets better and he gets his 4th prototype working I'll go for a listen.
I gather that his prototype is relatively flat response from under 100hz to at least 10khz and works significantly better than the "hard drive" speakers out on youtube.
I'm very interested in hearing his latest prototype. I don't think he'd be asking me to come listen if he thought he didn't have something reasonably good. He knows I'm using an all Vifa/Scanspeak Revelator setup. So he knows my expectations will be fairly high.
I gather that his prototype is relatively flat response from under 100hz to at least 10khz and works significantly better than the "hard drive" speakers out on youtube.
I'm very interested in hearing his latest prototype. I don't think he'd be asking me to come listen if he thought he didn't have something reasonably good. He knows I'm using an all Vifa/Scanspeak Revelator setup. So he knows my expectations will be fairly high.
Interesting.
But I still think Ziggy has a very important point to make. There is little to no knowledge about the various intentional and unintentional vibrational modes present in the Planot structure, or how these contribute to what is observed by the listener. This should not be taken as criticism (not in the negative sense anyway). The problem is a very complex one, and deserves analysis.
Earlier in the thread, I suggested a simple experiment: use a cylindrical radiating element in place of a triangular one. This would (should) remove the method of sound radiation intended by the designer, leaving only that sound caused by other "parasitic" resonances in the structure.
Come to think of it Ziggy, if we go in completely the opposite direction, have you tried mounting some of your panel material edge-on to a hard drive assembly, so that the torsional vibrations are transmitted into the structure? i.e. replace the triangle section of Planot with a stiff panel.
Cheers,
Ed
But I still think Ziggy has a very important point to make. There is little to no knowledge about the various intentional and unintentional vibrational modes present in the Planot structure, or how these contribute to what is observed by the listener. This should not be taken as criticism (not in the negative sense anyway). The problem is a very complex one, and deserves analysis.
Earlier in the thread, I suggested a simple experiment: use a cylindrical radiating element in place of a triangular one. This would (should) remove the method of sound radiation intended by the designer, leaving only that sound caused by other "parasitic" resonances in the structure.
Come to think of it Ziggy, if we go in completely the opposite direction, have you tried mounting some of your panel material edge-on to a hard drive assembly, so that the torsional vibrations are transmitted into the structure? i.e. replace the triangle section of Planot with a stiff panel.
Cheers,
Ed
Hey Ed.........that's an interesting point.
I do know that balsa wood sheets used with the NXT exciters sounds awful. So, if a different material is substituted, there should be an improvement to some extent?
Here's a problem though - the edge of Gatorfoam is a hardish polystyrene foam with the wood fibre panel glued to each side of it.
Therefore, if we are talking about vibration mode transfers, the edge will need to be sealed or something glued to it that is light and hard (no, not balsa wood). Perhaps a thin strip of Gatorfoam glued from it's face to the edge of the intended diaphragm?
Anyway, food for thought.......
I do know that balsa wood sheets used with the NXT exciters sounds awful. So, if a different material is substituted, there should be an improvement to some extent?
Here's a problem though - the edge of Gatorfoam is a hardish polystyrene foam with the wood fibre panel glued to each side of it.
Therefore, if we are talking about vibration mode transfers, the edge will need to be sealed or something glued to it that is light and hard (no, not balsa wood). Perhaps a thin strip of Gatorfoam glued from it's face to the edge of the intended diaphragm?
Anyway, food for thought.......
John Gaudreault's patent application can be read at the US Patent Office website. Application number is 20090034780. Surprisingly, there are no claims.
edit: Sorry, one claim. He should have paid a lawyer.
edit: Sorry, one claim. He should have paid a lawyer.
Oh don't worry, forum members and other DIY audio enthusiasts are some of the most patient people I have known 😉
We have had several conversations in reference to his P4. I just wanted to make sure everyone knew this was real and it is coming...
BTW, you have to be patient if you are a DYIer......
BTW, you have to be patient if you are a DYIer......
Who said it wasn't real?.....after all - there's some ''photos'' of something funny on his webpage........that'll do me............IT'S REAL!......IT'S REAL!........HALLELUJA!!!
''IT'S COMING!''.......so is the second coming
''IT'S COMING!''.......so is the second coming'67 MGB roadster in my garage 🙂
As to the Planot acoustic device. We don't doubt it's existence. However it's introduction to this forum has not followed the usual trend followed by other contributors e.g. presentation of typical performance data such as frequency response, efficiency etc.
Until then, it cannot be judged on any well understood scientific basis by others, and will be regarded merely as an interesting curiosity.
Regards,
Ed
As to the Planot acoustic device. We don't doubt it's existence. However it's introduction to this forum has not followed the usual trend followed by other contributors e.g. presentation of typical performance data such as frequency response, efficiency etc.
Until then, it cannot be judged on any well understood scientific basis by others, and will be regarded merely as an interesting curiosity.
Regards,
Ed
No measurements or data in the (very badly written) patent app, either. When this first came up, I did a little web searching and contacted John with an offer to give some free advice (I'm not in the hifi biz, but I've written a fair number of patents). His reaction was hostile and IMO needlessly paranoid, accusing me of essentially industrial espionage.
Too bad, if he actually has something here, it's not well protected.
Too bad, if he actually has something here, it's not well protected.
Ed,
Thank you for your civil response. As with any new product, especially of this magnitude, there will be a few delays and of course unexpected changes and just life in general. I do understand the need for tech info, and it WILL come. His method of patent for the Planot is not referencing the speaker itself. It really doesn't matter how he achieves the patent, it's about the audio machine, not paperwork technicalities.
John is a very polite and intelligent man. He just happened to have invented a very intricate machine. He is a perfectionist and wills to get it right. Let's keep this for what it is, an audio discussion for the Planot speaker itself...IMHO🙂
Thank you for your civil response. As with any new product, especially of this magnitude, there will be a few delays and of course unexpected changes and just life in general. I do understand the need for tech info, and it WILL come. His method of patent for the Planot is not referencing the speaker itself. It really doesn't matter how he achieves the patent, it's about the audio machine, not paperwork technicalities.
John is a very polite and intelligent man. He just happened to have invented a very intricate machine. He is a perfectionist and wills to get it right. Let's keep this for what it is, an audio discussion for the Planot speaker itself...IMHO🙂
How does one discuss vapor? No data, no viable theory of operation, demos put off, publicizing before he's got anything, hostile reactions to sincere offers of help... this has Joe Newman written all over it. FWIW, I think he's sincere and honest, but I think he also doesn't really have anything viable. I'll be happy to be proved wrong about the latter.
mobileusa, SY has no reason to lead us astray by providing the information that he contacted John(who has alienated himself from this forum) and was met with hostility amongst other nasties.
You are now asking us to believe that this is all B.S. and that the designer of ''whatever it is'' is a'' very polite and intelligent man''???
Well maybe he is, to you, and selectively towards others that don't pose some form of threat to his ''very intricate machine''.
How are we as forum members, expected to to'' keep this for what it is, an audio discussion (*#?!)for the Planot speaker itself''when the guy himself refuses to discuss his so called ''invention''?.
Why did he post on this forum in the first place ?.....this is a DIY FORUM not a forum that discusses a proposed commercial product that has more secrets than AREA51!
I suggest that there is nothing to discuss here at all (what's to discuss?....any attempt to extract information is met with hostility and suspicion)and that if John thinks we are all out to get his secret out of him, he should keep his ''mates'' from backing him up, telling us what a world changing invention he has and what a great guy he is.
Cheers.
You are now asking us to believe that this is all B.S. and that the designer of ''whatever it is'' is a'' very polite and intelligent man''???
Well maybe he is, to you, and selectively towards others that don't pose some form of threat to his ''very intricate machine''.
How are we as forum members, expected to to'' keep this for what it is, an audio discussion (*#?!)for the Planot speaker itself''when the guy himself refuses to discuss his so called ''invention''?.
Why did he post on this forum in the first place ?.....this is a DIY FORUM not a forum that discusses a proposed commercial product that has more secrets than AREA51!
I suggest that there is nothing to discuss here at all (what's to discuss?....any attempt to extract information is met with hostility and suspicion)and that if John thinks we are all out to get his secret out of him, he should keep his ''mates'' from backing him up, telling us what a world changing invention he has and what a great guy he is.
Cheers.
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