Limono,"I don't understand your fascination with ProAc" So why Rick Craig designed the speaker looking like ProAc?and why Troels continue to "design" speakers based on factory made ones? ProAc has followers because it provides joyful experience to wide group of music lovers not concerned with technicalities. It just strikes the right balance which many people find compelling. There is no "conspiracy" theory behind it and Steven Tyler is a really nice, close to earth and modest guy. I emailed him several times asking for help with some of their older models and he always answered promptly.
NO
Steve
An example of what?I just used ProAC as an example.
Regards,
Dan
You were quite specific with the link and the video.
Nobody made a speaker to be like ProAc not Troels, and certainly not Rick Craig when we designed my speaker together in 2002-2003.
Furthermore, my speaker is a standmount with a built in stand to look like a floorstander. Nobody does that!
And if you look at commercial offerings you have to look long and hard to find a speaker that is like mine, even if you include floorstanders.
Troels did Proac RS1 clone and Studio 100 clone and a lot of his ideas follow commercial products.
If your speaker has built in stand it is a floor stander and not a stand mount since it cannot be placed on stand. Living Voice is using a stand which looks built in to rise their speakers as well I'm sure the tweeter offset wasn't Mr. ProAc original idea but it is widely recognized as his shtick and a If you would show the picture to an average guy interested in hi-fi asking what brand of speaker it is, the likely answer would be a ProAc based on proportion and drivers configuration. It doesn't take anything away from you and Craig as a designers it just is what it is. The speakers look very nice BTW.
If your speaker has built in stand it is a floor stander and not a stand mount since it cannot be placed on stand. Living Voice is using a stand which looks built in to rise their speakers as well I'm sure the tweeter offset wasn't Mr. ProAc original idea but it is widely recognized as his shtick and a If you would show the picture to an average guy interested in hi-fi asking what brand of speaker it is, the likely answer would be a ProAc based on proportion and drivers configuration. It doesn't take anything away from you and Craig as a designers it just is what it is. The speakers look very nice BTW.
Limono,
You are arguing for argument sake.
Yes there are lots of ProAc clones. ProAc makes nice speakers, especially the small ones like Tablette, 1 and 2. In my pre diy days I listened to them a lot in shops, but stuck with my Harbeths.
And I should have been clearer in my post, that Troel's CNO speakers are not ProAc clones. And the CNO speaker was the one brought up by the OP.
As to my own speaker, I have attached a photo of the original. It is clearly a stand mounted speaker on a nice Sound Anchor stand. The speaker and stand live in America. I live in Australia. I rebuilt my speaker in 2018 with some parts of the original, some new parts and new cabinet. As per advise from Rick C. I kept baffle dimension the same, as well as internal volume. Rather than buy new stands I just built the cabinet to make it look like floorstanding speaker. I hope this is clear now and no further cause for discussion.
You are arguing for argument sake.
Yes there are lots of ProAc clones. ProAc makes nice speakers, especially the small ones like Tablette, 1 and 2. In my pre diy days I listened to them a lot in shops, but stuck with my Harbeths.
And I should have been clearer in my post, that Troel's CNO speakers are not ProAc clones. And the CNO speaker was the one brought up by the OP.
As to my own speaker, I have attached a photo of the original. It is clearly a stand mounted speaker on a nice Sound Anchor stand. The speaker and stand live in America. I live in Australia. I rebuilt my speaker in 2018 with some parts of the original, some new parts and new cabinet. As per advise from Rick C. I kept baffle dimension the same, as well as internal volume. Rather than buy new stands I just built the cabinet to make it look like floorstanding speaker. I hope this is clear now and no further cause for discussion.
What is the firstmost objective ?
Best sound for minimal cost ?
Fun with DIY (woodwork, speaker measurements and tuning, ....) ?
Resale value when you decide one day to want something else ?
DIY will never save you money for the same results, except for maybe "very exclusive" commercial speakers.
DIY will have next to no resale value, especially when used.
So it is only worth doing if you enjoy DIY for the sake of it.
Or you think you have the ablility to build something better than those on the market.
The best bargain I ever had for speakers is a pair of 2nd hand B&M CDM1's.
I can never get the same sound with that money.
And if I sell it today, I can recover >70% of what I paid then.
And I rather spend time & money to play with active crossover for the same.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...crossover-filter-solution.329458/post-6324890(You can still resell it 100% original thereafter.)
Patrick
Best sound for minimal cost ?
Fun with DIY (woodwork, speaker measurements and tuning, ....) ?
Resale value when you decide one day to want something else ?
DIY will never save you money for the same results, except for maybe "very exclusive" commercial speakers.
DIY will have next to no resale value, especially when used.
So it is only worth doing if you enjoy DIY for the sake of it.
Or you think you have the ablility to build something better than those on the market.
The best bargain I ever had for speakers is a pair of 2nd hand B&M CDM1's.
I can never get the same sound with that money.
And if I sell it today, I can recover >70% of what I paid then.
And I rather spend time & money to play with active crossover for the same.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...crossover-filter-solution.329458/post-6324890(You can still resell it 100% original thereafter.)
Patrick
Attachments
Patrick's post has caused me to pause and reflect on what my true goals are here. The result, the joy of DIY and tinkering far outweighs the costs. After all, it is a hobby and hobbies cost money.
Also, just by coincidence I recently took my line arrays from passive to active using the mini-DSP and the results were a huge improvement.
So, I'm intrigued by Troels designs and I'm interested in exploring how good my experience will be.
The old 'nothing ventured, nothing gained' saying comes to mind.
As mentioned above I'm also in the unique position where I have all the associated gear to explore any one of Troels designs with an active crossover.
I could be tinkering for years!
Regards,
Dan
P.S. I also have REW and a calibrated mic.
Also, just by coincidence I recently took my line arrays from passive to active using the mini-DSP and the results were a huge improvement.
So, I'm intrigued by Troels designs and I'm interested in exploring how good my experience will be.
The old 'nothing ventured, nothing gained' saying comes to mind.
As mentioned above I'm also in the unique position where I have all the associated gear to explore any one of Troels designs with an active crossover.
I could be tinkering for years!
Regards,
Dan
P.S. I also have REW and a calibrated mic.
Then it is easy to decide.
It is then not about the destination, but the journey.
But then I wonder why you don't start from scratch, rather than copy and paste ?
Afterall, you can measure, and you can play with infinite varaitions of XOvr with DSP, not ?
It is a lot more fun to start from scratch.
Patrick
Patrick,
I don't really have the skills or the time to invest in developing a 'good' passive crossover myself. But, I would like to experience the results of a 'well designed'
passive crossover and then perhaps compare it with the results I can produce with an active crossover.
Comparing the two intrigues me.
Regards,
Dan
The problem is that most if not all the recent work of Troels isn't well designed, and the CNO-25-mkII is no exception. His only goal is a relatively flat on axis FR, and this alone doesn't make a well designed speaker.
Ralf
I agree his designs have not advanced much over the years. He is doing some interesting woodwork now that we didn't see in his earlier designs.
I was looking at the Purifi-6R the other day.
The interesting thing is that the Joachim Gerhard Surveyor uses essentially the same drivers.
But it claims to have only 6 components in the crossover, further reduceable to 4.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...domain-measurements.12951/page-25#post-520094
I wonder which sounds better.
Patrick
The interesting thing is that the Joachim Gerhard Surveyor uses essentially the same drivers.
But it claims to have only 6 components in the crossover, further reduceable to 4.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...domain-measurements.12951/page-25#post-520094
I wonder which sounds better.
Patrick
I think the criticism is perhaps becoming a bit unbalanced. Troels is broadly an enthusiastic subjective hobbyist when it comes to speaker design. His designs tend to be less than optimum in terms of engineering but they are not seriously flawed at least not in ways that I can see. They often include overly expensive and at times boutique parts but that is part of the hobby for many and particularly those with a subjective leaning.
For a first DIY speaker project following one of Troels' designs seems to me a reasonable place to start. The designs may not be exemplary, to use the OPs word, but nor are they poor. The OP has been pointed at better engineered designs and was not particularly keen. He has been pointed at other popular designs with unusual features like spraying the front wall with the radiation from the rear of the midrange and was also not keen.
A first DIY speaker project when one knows little about the subject stands little chance of being 100% satisfactory. So long as it is usable (or something usable can be recovered with minimal cost as was the case with my first DIY speaker) then I think we should be a bit more supportive of the OPs enthusiasms. Otherwise he will buy a ProAc.
For a first DIY speaker project following one of Troels' designs seems to me a reasonable place to start. The designs may not be exemplary, to use the OPs word, but nor are they poor. The OP has been pointed at better engineered designs and was not particularly keen. He has been pointed at other popular designs with unusual features like spraying the front wall with the radiation from the rear of the midrange and was also not keen.
A first DIY speaker project when one knows little about the subject stands little chance of being 100% satisfactory. So long as it is usable (or something usable can be recovered with minimal cost as was the case with my first DIY speaker) then I think we should be a bit more supportive of the OPs enthusiasms. Otherwise he will buy a ProAc.
I made the switch from 2-way active speakers with active line level crossovers to 3-way speakers with passive crossovers recently.
I'm not a fan of complex crossovers at speaker level (ruling out most of Troels' other designs), which is why I chose the CNO Grande with its 1st order crossover. The favorable reviews of the W18NX003 supported the decision. See https://hificompass.com/en/reviews/seas-excel-6-w18nx003-e0096-08-midwoofer-review for example.
The same source has a favorable review of the Purifi driver (both 8R and 4R version): https://hificompass.com/en/reviews/purifi-ptt65w08-01b-ptt65x08-nfa-01
Either way, this being a DIY site, I can't quite relate to all the recommendations for going the commercial route. Then again, since I lack the tools, space and frankly also the skills to make an enclosure that would've satisfied my building standards, I got the cabinets made by a carpenter. It's kinda like getting the drilled and tapped amp enclosures from the diyaudiostore methinks, so I'm still calling them DIY speakers
I'm not a fan of complex crossovers at speaker level (ruling out most of Troels' other designs), which is why I chose the CNO Grande with its 1st order crossover. The favorable reviews of the W18NX003 supported the decision. See https://hificompass.com/en/reviews/seas-excel-6-w18nx003-e0096-08-midwoofer-review for example.
The same source has a favorable review of the Purifi driver (both 8R and 4R version): https://hificompass.com/en/reviews/purifi-ptt65w08-01b-ptt65x08-nfa-01
Either way, this being a DIY site, I can't quite relate to all the recommendations for going the commercial route. Then again, since I lack the tools, space and frankly also the skills to make an enclosure that would've satisfied my building standards, I got the cabinets made by a carpenter. It's kinda like getting the drilled and tapped amp enclosures from the diyaudiostore methinks, so I'm still calling them DIY speakers