I've been looking around the higher end spectrum of larger scale, cost-no-object speaker systems available and had some serious questions to those who have known any owners of these systems. I'm trying to understand why someone would pay the 6 figure price for some of these "end game" speaker systems.
Here's the big rub for me -
How do these companies get away with building very large, (supposed) high output capable systems using 1" tweeters crossed fairly low?
There's no way a 1" dome can hang with that much band specific output capability without going up in smoke or being significantly choked with some means of a dynamic range restricting protection mechanism? Its just a huge imbalance of cone surface area while having the entire HF come from a small soft dome tweeter. Even with a WG, it would still be left in the dust with the other drivers having significantly more reserve in their dedicated bandwidth.
I find it quite shady the crossover frequencies aren't disclosed in a Stereophile review of the big Wilson Alexandria. I feel that any sain person wouldn't buy a speaker system which had all that LF capability, yet only used one or a second rear mounted soft dome - (guys who know me well enough have heard my views on rear mounted HF drivers).
I've heard the older version of this speaker in question and didn't feel it sounded like it was worth the extreme asking price. I feel like I'm expecting to find the highest caliber HF driver available on a speaker like this. I'd expect at least a high sensitivity 30mm textreme dome or even something like a beryllium T34B.
Here's the big rub for me -
How do these companies get away with building very large, (supposed) high output capable systems using 1" tweeters crossed fairly low?
There's no way a 1" dome can hang with that much band specific output capability without going up in smoke or being significantly choked with some means of a dynamic range restricting protection mechanism? Its just a huge imbalance of cone surface area while having the entire HF come from a small soft dome tweeter. Even with a WG, it would still be left in the dust with the other drivers having significantly more reserve in their dedicated bandwidth.
I find it quite shady the crossover frequencies aren't disclosed in a Stereophile review of the big Wilson Alexandria. I feel that any sain person wouldn't buy a speaker system which had all that LF capability, yet only used one or a second rear mounted soft dome - (guys who know me well enough have heard my views on rear mounted HF drivers).
I've heard the older version of this speaker in question and didn't feel it sounded like it was worth the extreme asking price. I feel like I'm expecting to find the highest caliber HF driver available on a speaker like this. I'd expect at least a high sensitivity 30mm textreme dome or even something like a beryllium T34B.
I mean Linkwitz used the SEAS Millennium tweeter in his Orion and this was originally crossed at 1440Hz. He specified the system with significant amounts of testing to ensure that the tweeter could hit 105dB target peaks.
Waveguides make a huge amount of difference to the average power dissipated by a tweeter. They typically provide around 6dB of boost and usually between 1500-2500Hz the exact region where a tweeter is going to see the most energy. The further up in frequency you go music is on your side as the power density drops off completely. That is most music doesn't have much content up high etc so waveguide + music really does reduce the average tweeter power by a considerable amount.
The next thing to look at is something like the Alexandria's frequency response it's heavily tilted down. If the tweeter has been set to a reduced level Vs the rest of the system this will also decrease the average power it sees relative to the rest of the system.
Finally these are to be used in a domestic environment. Even in quite a big room people don't tend to listen that loud. If you did attach a 1000 watt amp to the Alex and attempt to listen to spectrally dense music at ear melting levels I'm sure the tweeter would explode.
Waveguides make a huge amount of difference to the average power dissipated by a tweeter. They typically provide around 6dB of boost and usually between 1500-2500Hz the exact region where a tweeter is going to see the most energy. The further up in frequency you go music is on your side as the power density drops off completely. That is most music doesn't have much content up high etc so waveguide + music really does reduce the average tweeter power by a considerable amount.
The next thing to look at is something like the Alexandria's frequency response it's heavily tilted down. If the tweeter has been set to a reduced level Vs the rest of the system this will also decrease the average power it sees relative to the rest of the system.
Finally these are to be used in a domestic environment. Even in quite a big room people don't tend to listen that loud. If you did attach a 1000 watt amp to the Alex and attempt to listen to spectrally dense music at ear melting levels I'm sure the tweeter would explode.
I'm sure its relative and quite alot is based on personal preference. The spectral distribution of power is a siding scale, but I can pretty much say the average percentage of power being distributed to the tweeter is significant enough to overwhelm it. At minimum it requires a higher sensitivity tweeter to keep up with all the rest of the cone drivers. This Wilson speaker also has a fairly relaxed midrange, which is perceived as sounding "hifi".
I bet you play back a recorded drum kit with minimal compression at respectable levels on these things, it will cook the tweeters quickly. Most 1" soft dome tweeters only handle 10 - 12W tops. Once you're at about 400 hz, that's the 50% break point of spectral power distribution with pink noise if there is no extra EQ on the low end. Even with a WG, the tweeter still needs to digest alot just above 2.5k.
I bet you play back a recorded drum kit with minimal compression at respectable levels on these things, it will cook the tweeters quickly. Most 1" soft dome tweeters only handle 10 - 12W tops. Once you're at about 400 hz, that's the 50% break point of spectral power distribution with pink noise if there is no extra EQ on the low end. Even with a WG, the tweeter still needs to digest alot just above 2.5k.
Right but music has never contained things like drums without dynamic compression. Even older stuff had a decent amount just not the insane levels used today.
Not to mention that drummers regularly wear forms of hearing protection. We do not want to be able to create that kind of SPL in our homes because we'd go deaf.
I mean what are you saying you want the system to average 85dB on a drummer but then hit a 120dB peak when they smash a cymbal? I certainly don't want that in my home.
Not to mention that drummers regularly wear forms of hearing protection. We do not want to be able to create that kind of SPL in our homes because we'd go deaf.
I mean what are you saying you want the system to average 85dB on a drummer but then hit a 120dB peak when they smash a cymbal? I certainly don't want that in my home.
Well, I'd like to have the capability of doing so if I spend that much on speakers. Having unrestricted dynamic range is very uncommon to most people. I've worked in the music business a long time and enjoy music with alot of dynamic range.
Uncompressed dynamic playback capability is important to me, especially knowing things aren't going to go up in smoke if you slip a little with the big knob.
Quite a bit of live jazz bands and orchestras require the reproduction of quite large dynamic swings. That doesn't mean I listen that loud on average most of the time. It just means the system can reproduce the full dynamic range without breaking a sweat (or a tweeter). I treasure my hearing and have tried to take good care of it most of the time. Sometimes I just want to hear a big symphony orchestra at the correct level from the front row. Peaks can exceed 115 dB with very short transients at the conductor's location.
This is also why I'm using a WG loaded T34B with two shaded M74A mids per side on my new system with dual 10" midbass drivers and 18" subs. I don’t often listen very loud, but sometimes I want to have some fun and put on a really good big band jazz recording and let loose.
Some people think that's excessive and pointless, but I think of it as driving a high HP car. You're not going to drive it fast all the time. Its just nice to know you can when you want (unless you want to go to jail).
Uncompressed dynamic playback capability is important to me, especially knowing things aren't going to go up in smoke if you slip a little with the big knob.
Quite a bit of live jazz bands and orchestras require the reproduction of quite large dynamic swings. That doesn't mean I listen that loud on average most of the time. It just means the system can reproduce the full dynamic range without breaking a sweat (or a tweeter). I treasure my hearing and have tried to take good care of it most of the time. Sometimes I just want to hear a big symphony orchestra at the correct level from the front row. Peaks can exceed 115 dB with very short transients at the conductor's location.
This is also why I'm using a WG loaded T34B with two shaded M74A mids per side on my new system with dual 10" midbass drivers and 18" subs. I don’t often listen very loud, but sometimes I want to have some fun and put on a really good big band jazz recording and let loose.
Some people think that's excessive and pointless, but I think of it as driving a high HP car. You're not going to drive it fast all the time. Its just nice to know you can when you want (unless you want to go to jail).
You are conflating high price with high-performance.
David Wilson is the original purveyor and perpetuator of “the high end”
I have a topic ready to post about that… one fine/day time…
David Wilson is the original purveyor and perpetuator of “the high end”
I have a topic ready to post about that… one fine/day time…
The target market of people with more money than sense are willing to pay for what they perceive to be some sort of "prestige" speaker, regardless of it's performance, if they buy into the marketing hype.
The tweeter attenuation series resistors "also act as ultra high quality fuses which open before a driver can be damaged by excess power".
The Caddock resistors are an interesting specialty item.
This Caddock "current sense" resistors appear to what Wilson uses, though I didn't find the specs for the specific units, these specs give an idea of what they do:
Interesting resistors, power handling goes from 20 watts at room temperature, derated to zero at +175 degrees C.
Without the heat sink, they are rated for as little as 1.25 watts:
The Alexandria XLF is only specified at 93.5dB 1/w1m, and looks like the tilted down response would require under 87dB tweeter sensitivity, fairly typical for "50 watt" dome tweeters, one pointed rearward..
Anyway, the Alexandria's pair of silk dome tweeters probably could produce high frequency peaks in the 115 dB range, similar to the level of dropping a spoon on a plate.
Art
On my horn speakers if I play music really loud and then switch off the subs / bass / mids all I am left with is a fairly quiet 'tss tss tss' and a faint bit of vocals (crossed at 1050Hz)
I don't think speakers in a domestic setting require massive tweeter output.
Bob.
I don't think speakers in a domestic setting require massive tweeter output.
Bob.
@AllenB i have a pair of T34Bs in WGs, 2 pairs of M74A mids running shaded from ca. 500 hz on up. The tweeters are conservatively capable of over 115 dB peaks in their full input spectrum. The mids will get close to that as well as the midbass also being able to deliver well in excess of 110 dB continuously from 100 to 500 hz. The 1% (- 40 dB) THD mark is at over 105 dB, all using direct radiating, high sensitivity drivers.
I designed the entire system to be able to comfortably deliver well over 110 dB levels continuously from 30 hz on up to HF cutoff limit. I spent a long time designing the individual pieces of this system to be very low compromise and be able to out gun many horn loaded setups, all using direct radiating drivers. The system sensitivity will be somewhere around 96 dB @ 2.8V after BSC, so very efficient. It requires 6 channels of amplification.
I don't quite understand the loyalty to Wilson with this if they sell a product that has significant performance limitations. I've also never really liked their speakers and felt they were over priced for what they deliver.
I designed the entire system to be able to comfortably deliver well over 110 dB levels continuously from 30 hz on up to HF cutoff limit. I spent a long time designing the individual pieces of this system to be very low compromise and be able to out gun many horn loaded setups, all using direct radiating drivers. The system sensitivity will be somewhere around 96 dB @ 2.8V after BSC, so very efficient. It requires 6 channels of amplification.
I don't quite understand the loyalty to Wilson with this if they sell a product that has significant performance limitations. I've also never really liked their speakers and felt they were over priced for what they deliver.
I understand the Caddock resistors are really expensive. I've used them in current sinking applications for eddy current braking in linear motor systems.
@weltersys Art, I can almost see where you're coming from.The choice of an HF soft dome for such a top end speaker doesn't make alot of sense to me, as these types of diaphragm materials tend to deform under heavy acoustical load. I'd understand a metal or composite dome being more appropriate for this purpose being it behaves more linear in fashion. Dynaudio and Morel prides themselves with their tweeter's transient power handling capabilities, but I'm leary of their actual hard numbers ie. with very short 5ms transients. I've always sort of snickered at those figures.
@weltersys Art, I can almost see where you're coming from.The choice of an HF soft dome for such a top end speaker doesn't make alot of sense to me, as these types of diaphragm materials tend to deform under heavy acoustical load. I'd understand a metal or composite dome being more appropriate for this purpose being it behaves more linear in fashion. Dynaudio and Morel prides themselves with their tweeter's transient power handling capabilities, but I'm leary of their actual hard numbers ie. with very short 5ms transients. I've always sort of snickered at those figures.
I dare say there's not a lot of energy going into the tweeter compared with the rest of the speaker.
The thing to watch for is avoiding clipping. I've blown a few tweeters in my life playing stuff very loud and suddenly the treble just.. pfft!... disappears.
Figure that a 200 wpc amp is safer than 40... A 40 watt amp driven into clipping will easily smoke the tweeter!
The thing to watch for is avoiding clipping. I've blown a few tweeters in my life playing stuff very loud and suddenly the treble just.. pfft!... disappears.
Figure that a 200 wpc amp is safer than 40... A 40 watt amp driven into clipping will easily smoke the tweeter!
@wafflesomd That's essentially how I feel about their marketing approach and how they advertise to their potential customers. The suckers that pay this sort of money in question are probably the same people who buy over-priced wine. The weight and size alone of their speakers is ridiculously unnecessary for the given task they perform.
@tonyEE I agree. The power distribution above 2 or 3k becomes very light. The only exception is something like a cymbal crash or a very aggressively EQed snare drum. Some synthetic sounds can also be very concentrated in HF, dumping their full energy in a very narrow band. I'm just being very particular with my concerns and tend to over engineer things like this for reliability sake.
Some ultra-high-priced speakers perform extremely well. They offer the customer high performance and a luxury ownership experience. They make no pretense about being a good value, and a lot of what a customer is paying for is luxury features and aesthetics. But at least the performance is quite high. Rockport and Magico come to mind.
Others offer only the luxury experience. The design looks cool, the craftsmanship is outstanding, and they have expensive features like massive weight or rare materials. But the performance is unimpressive, and sometimes it is quite flawed. I have never heard a Wilson speaker, but the frequency response curve of post #1 would not be appropriate on any speaker costing more than $1000 per pair. There is more to sound quality than an on-axis frequency response, but at the minimum, the on-axis has to be right... So maybe Wilson is in this second category?
Others offer only the luxury experience. The design looks cool, the craftsmanship is outstanding, and they have expensive features like massive weight or rare materials. But the performance is unimpressive, and sometimes it is quite flawed. I have never heard a Wilson speaker, but the frequency response curve of post #1 would not be appropriate on any speaker costing more than $1000 per pair. There is more to sound quality than an on-axis frequency response, but at the minimum, the on-axis has to be right... So maybe Wilson is in this second category?
That there is a 1" Scanspeak OEM dome, unless they ave gotten a soft dome Focal made somehow (square faceplate).
The midrange is a "top of the line" Focal, OEM.
And the woofers are unmistakenly Focal OEM version with traditional dustcaps.
The midrange is a "top of the line" Focal, OEM.
And the woofers are unmistakenly Focal OEM version with traditional dustcaps.
"I'm trying to understand why someone would pay the 6 figure price for some of these "end game" speaker systems."
Status. Most of the 'Bruce Wayne' people who buy these six figure systems have money to burn. They have Ferraris in their garages that they never drive. It's sad really.
Status. Most of the 'Bruce Wayne' people who buy these six figure systems have money to burn. They have Ferraris in their garages that they never drive. It's sad really.
Could someone please explain that chart to me:
- it shows a frequency range from 10hz to 20khz but the text says 300hz and up!? So is the chart <300hz not anechoic, thus subject to room effects?
- Is the vertical axis normalised to 0db = average efficiency of the speaker? Is that to disguise its true efficiency?