if you look at the volume level here, 80hz hits Xmax at 110db while 100hz+ is at 118db. So considering the band width of this speaker is meant to be 100hz to 20Khz and the general response within the passband is at 115db before xmax(1.95mm) is reached at 60hz and below, it isn't an issue at reasonable volumes. If crossed over at 80hz like most AV receivers will do it will reach 118db, plenty loud I think for most listeners (not me mind you but most).
my experiments and simulations bear out that this is simply not the case. I have run these sims on hundreds if not thousands of different drivers, 8 of these drivers out perform any driver from fostex when it comes to cone displacement every time, and any other full range driver when it comes to clean impulse and wideband response. I know from experience that solid bass can be had from even the FE126E and the sims on that aren't even 1/10 as good in the bass as these drivers. Even the performance of the FE206E pales compared to an octet of these, in every performance parameter, especially the bass.
So I understand all of your concerns, but I personally believe, and I feel the simulations and the numbers bear this out, that you are all quite mistaken and I will prove it when I start selling my speakers. I hope I have at least inspired some of you to experiment with this driver and don't let others hesitation stop you from trying to go low with them. What is the worst that could happen? You'll blow them out and lose $26 whoopee ding!
no. this is theoretical maximum SPL with a single tone of fixed frequency, at maximum power rating. i.e. with no respect to distortion of any kind, not accounting for IMD constructional interferance 'beats'. this is the absolute best you can achieve in an ideal world with an ideal driver. for out and out SPL it is fine, but for quality....
since i assume you are going to use the lowest wattage amp you can, maybe you could post graphs for a relevant power level? with serious EQ(or rather attenuation) above the lower cut off corner, and sacrificing efficiency as a result, a 'pretty flat' low ultimate SPL speaker could be fashioned. Since you seem to be after ultimate SPL something has to give way to compromise.
i agree. most fostex have lower xmax, not to mention a 'coloured' sound; but are you seriously saying that 8 1" drivers have a greater volume displacement than a 208? even with an xmax of less than 1mm the fostex wins for displacement. given the fluid nature of air at LFs, there is no substitute for volume displacement. in a horn, more volume displacment = higher pressure ratio. the light cone of a 208 (or other) would likely suffer breakup due to pressure loading, far worse than the TBs, due to cone area--so i get your logic.
Again i agree. its worthy of an experiment, and the sims dont look awful, if you ignore the group delay. unfortunately no-one seems to be able to agree what level of group delay is relevant. personally, i feel that 40ms is very audible, at least in the lower midrange. my experience of bandpass loading(4th and 6th order) is limited, but a group delay in the LF of more than 30ms or so, is most definitely noticable, as a unresponsive bass attack, and hung over decay curve. the situation is worsened in fullrange IMHO, since the group delay will mean some harmonics will be delayed. in a horn this is bad enough RE phase and due to path length, but too high group delay MAY lead to the perception that higher harms are heard prior to the fundamental. since harmonics tell our ears more than the fundmental alone, this may not be perceived as a problem. in short, trying is the only way. beleive me ill buy a pair if they are as miraculous as you claim, i just hope they are better than glorified PC speakers.
all the sims i have done point to a FLH being by far the best alignment for this driver, but again i must be mistaken.....
all of this aside, and just to show im not a bigot, i still stand fast to my first thoughts.
i like this idea.
ive tried a BLH with these 1"ers, but it shows the same limitations as your ideas. you get to a point where throat area becomes a serious issue, far earlier than i would be happy with. then the only route is mouth area. and length. the length looks about bang on, judging by the graphs, mouth area HAS to be limited by virtue of your design parameters, leaving throat area. looking at your deisgn, i would guess-stimate throat area of less than 1cm² per driver. probably much less than 1cm². this scenario, i would imagine, would form less of a horn, and more of a whistle. which is why im looking at a different approach.
with EQ/attenuation, ie removing most of the horn gain, except where its really needed (i.e. sub 200hz), is the only real way to get a good flat response from these things. either that or reduce the BW. no offence meant, in any way, but these drivers are hardly new. add to that that theres a wealth of diy audio ppl out there, and a few have similar thoughts to yourself(me included), plus the fact there a whole industry in audio R&D with millions to spend on developing such ideas; makes it all the less likely to be the success you claim.
of course, the greater audio 'fraternity' have been wrong many times before...
so i am not writing your design off, but open minded as i am, i feel that your asking a little too much of these lil drivers. i have to say after my recent experience with the 1"ers, that i am not nearly as impressed with them as the w2's im using.
better than that, forget the Tangbands altogether. im simming up what a alpair5/6 will do in a similar set up 😉
my guess: far better than either of our ideas....
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My sims are showing a flat response with no filtering whatsoever. I only suggest a high pass filter below the passband of the design to reduce the chances of running out of Xmax. Without reducing any of the gain from the horn and without exceeding 2mm displacement the large spiral design I have shown the plots for above and have posted the complete design for on another thread will, with fairly steep a high pass crossover at 45hz play 124db(corner loaded) from 50hz -20khz requiring only 15 watts to do so. The Group delay has a variance of less than 10ms from 60hz to 700hz, so I don't see any indications of a serious fault in this design.
nevermind. you misunderstood my point (or just ignored, like the many other relevant points by others)
the point was (if you really seek other opinions at all):
define horn geometry for a higher and more (insert important word: ) optimal horn cut off.
attenuate the hell out of evrything above Fc
result: lower f3 point whilst 'optimally' tuned coupling of the driver around resonance, without 'stretching' BW outside the ideal.
downside: lower efficiency. having to EQ. far too much effort for such limited drivers.
This is how id approach this idea. its a free country, youre free to do as you wish. whether im right or youre right, doesnt matter a jot to me. but note: many ppl have tried to contribute, often positively, and often critically (although constructively) I, and others, are more than willing to acknowledge the merits of this design, and offer constructive critique merely to assist the improvement of your design. this is something im sure you wish to do. however, you seem unwilling to accept that there are ANY faults with the concept; and THIS is where you are misguided. besides...isnt 1Pi for corner loading, not 0.5Pi?
i dont come here to argue, and i actually LIKE the idea. I might have even tried it. but i am done here. i no longer have the will to live. im sure theres a bar round the corner if you want to pick an arguement with one of the locals.
the point was (if you really seek other opinions at all):
define horn geometry for a higher and more (insert important word: ) optimal horn cut off.
attenuate the hell out of evrything above Fc
result: lower f3 point whilst 'optimally' tuned coupling of the driver around resonance, without 'stretching' BW outside the ideal.
downside: lower efficiency. having to EQ. far too much effort for such limited drivers.
This is how id approach this idea. its a free country, youre free to do as you wish. whether im right or youre right, doesnt matter a jot to me. but note: many ppl have tried to contribute, often positively, and often critically (although constructively) I, and others, are more than willing to acknowledge the merits of this design, and offer constructive critique merely to assist the improvement of your design. this is something im sure you wish to do. however, you seem unwilling to accept that there are ANY faults with the concept; and THIS is where you are misguided. besides...isnt 1Pi for corner loading, not 0.5Pi?
i dont come here to argue, and i actually LIKE the idea. I might have even tried it. but i am done here. i no longer have the will to live. im sure theres a bar round the corner if you want to pick an arguement with one of the locals.
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I didn't miss your point but I really feel you missed mine. You are giving me all these instructions and I am simply saying, why, it seems to work this way, you have told me your reasons and I have rebutted them and you have ignored my rebuttle. The resonance frequency of the driver means that this driver sitting in open space (or sometimes on a baffle) resonates at this frequency. When you put it in an enclosure it changes, when you put it in a large horn it is almost meaningless. I am not arguing with you I am simply showing you what I have discovered and you amongst others here seem to think I have not considered any of these points and I have. I have clearly shown you that with the design I have made I am not pushing the driver beyond it capabilities I am not applying any EQ and am gettin fantastic results, and then I am showing that it could play even louder (crazy loud if you will) if you put a high pass crossover below the band pass. I have already made one design in which one of these drivers performs sufficiently down to 80hz the bass is not muddy it s crisp, clear and dynamic, unless of coursed pushed beyond it's capability. All of this is exactly as hornresp predicts. Now I am showing that according to hornresp if I use 8 of them, and a large horn they can perform down to 45hz not only as good as other drivers but better than them. Perhaps I am reading you wrong but it just seems like you're sticking your fingers in your ears going lalalalalalalalalala I can't hear you it won't work.
the points you have made are as follows
1. If you exceed Xmax it will distort.
My design allows great response down to 45hz without even aproching Xmax.
2. If you exceed thermal power handeling it will distort.
My design plays very loudly with 1-3 watts and 8 of these drivers will handle peak power of 320 Watts and RMS of 120W so it is not an issue.
3. If the group delay is too long the bass will not sound good.
While no one seems to agree on what is acceptable group delay is this design performs far better in this area than many other designs I have built and been very happy with.
I have addressed all of the concerns that have been brought up and have solved them as far as I can see, so I really don't understand what you are so frustrated about, unless you aren't really reading my posts or you just plane don't believe me. As far as I can see this design with these drivers is the best comprimise of faults I have come across in a design so far. I haven't come here to argue either and I honestly thought were were having a mutally productive discussion, I'm not sure what I said that made you so frustrated but I don't understand where the fault is iin this design. As far as I can see these drivers are the closest thing I have seem to an optimal design for a compound horn design. The things that people keep pointing out as it's faults (size, Xmax, power handling, high frequency response) are the areas where this driver shines over all others. I have considered all factors in my design and come up with someting fantastic, people keep saying yeah but you didn't consider this, and I reply with, yes I did, see how this shows that parameter and I feel like I'm being ignored. I have spent hours designing horns for numerous drivers and have not come up with results even close to these with any other driver. I have built a successful design with the black 2" TB that plays very loudly down to 100hz and is very small and this driver models better in a smaller cabinet.
the points you have made are as follows
1. If you exceed Xmax it will distort.
My design allows great response down to 45hz without even aproching Xmax.
2. If you exceed thermal power handeling it will distort.
My design plays very loudly with 1-3 watts and 8 of these drivers will handle peak power of 320 Watts and RMS of 120W so it is not an issue.
3. If the group delay is too long the bass will not sound good.
While no one seems to agree on what is acceptable group delay is this design performs far better in this area than many other designs I have built and been very happy with.
I have addressed all of the concerns that have been brought up and have solved them as far as I can see, so I really don't understand what you are so frustrated about, unless you aren't really reading my posts or you just plane don't believe me. As far as I can see this design with these drivers is the best comprimise of faults I have come across in a design so far. I haven't come here to argue either and I honestly thought were were having a mutally productive discussion, I'm not sure what I said that made you so frustrated but I don't understand where the fault is iin this design. As far as I can see these drivers are the closest thing I have seem to an optimal design for a compound horn design. The things that people keep pointing out as it's faults (size, Xmax, power handling, high frequency response) are the areas where this driver shines over all others. I have considered all factors in my design and come up with someting fantastic, people keep saying yeah but you didn't consider this, and I reply with, yes I did, see how this shows that parameter and I feel like I'm being ignored. I have spent hours designing horns for numerous drivers and have not come up with results even close to these with any other driver. I have built a successful design with the black 2" TB that plays very loudly down to 100hz and is very small and this driver models better in a smaller cabinet.
To bring some clarity back to this thread.....refer to the title. Emphasis on "everything"
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I guess now is the time to walk the walk, get something build and then publish the plans so someone else can verify. That's the only way to settle this, and get people convinced.
Small drivers like this, or very similar to the TB in discussion has been around for years, this can't be the first time someone had this pretty straightforward idea of combining several of them to a larger driver and putting them in a horn loaded enclosure.
Small drivers like this, or very similar to the TB in discussion has been around for years, this can't be the first time someone had this pretty straightforward idea of combining several of them to a larger driver and putting them in a horn loaded enclosure.
Well if my goal was to impress you or gain your aproval I would agree with you, but I am just trying to share my discovery. When I find the means to build it I will be too busy with marketing and sales to bother trying to impress the DIY community. I just wanted to share my knowledge if you chose to learn from it it will be your gain. If you choose to stand there and ask me to prove it to you, you will never know. So if anyone thinks what I have to say has merit, do your own experimenting. If you don't, don't. It won't effect me either way.
You clearly express dislike of people suggesting you are wrong or even lying, so you must have some interest in convincing people on this forum. Even the very posting of this thread and the length of it, aided by your replies reveals that.
By posting this thread you want feedback of some kind, if not then why even bother? You could say you are just being generous and sharing your discovery with the world, but again the whole roll-out and direction of this thread suggests something else.
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Thanks Frued, maybe I am in love with my mother. I like to share my knowledge and this knowledge took a lot of hard work to achieve. So when I stuble across something spectacular I want to share it. Seeing as almost none of my friends are into audio and I'm a bit isolated here in my little trailer in the woods with no car, this is one of my main social outlets. So when I excitedly share something I worked very hard on, only to have it picked apart and to have those I share it with assume that I am an ignorant dreamer with no knowledge of the things I have spent the last 12 years studing, makes me a little frustrated and angry. I'm not looking for aproval, but a little gratitude and respect would be nice after just handing you my lifes work to use in anyway you see fit. I think this thread is done and I am done sharing my ideas. If someone wants help with their design, or has questions about the things I know, I will be happy to help, but I am not sharing any of my designs or discoveries ever again, because you people are like pirranas you're not here to learn or to share, you're here to tear others apart to make yourselves feel superior and hijack others' threads to boost your own egos. I will not be a part of it.
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There is a reason why i trust Scottmoose, ChrisB and Dave. I know their designs are good and i've heard it with my own ears and others have shared the same joy when listening to music with their designs.
The reason i don't trust you is because you only come up with words, graphs, pictures and such. But nobody has ever heard if your great horn speaker sounds as good as you claim.
So.. I think more people will listen to you if you actually build the speakers you are so excited at and let people listen to them and hear if they are really as good as you say they are.
Just my 5 cents :S
The reason i don't trust you is because you only come up with words, graphs, pictures and such. But nobody has ever heard if your great horn speaker sounds as good as you claim.
So.. I think more people will listen to you if you actually build the speakers you are so excited at and let people listen to them and hear if they are really as good as you say they are.
Just my 5 cents :S
"I like to share my knowledge and this knowledge took a lot of hard work "
Knowledge ist different from making simulations, pictures and wrote speculations.
I agree very close with squeak and rullknufs.
Knowledge ist different from making simulations, pictures and wrote speculations.
I agree very close with squeak and rullknufs.
this is my point Brsanko. there is no discovery here, just data input and manipulation within a program. everyone here can do that, perhaps to differing degrees of skill. I am not an expert or any kind of authority within diyaudio. I am also opinionated, and have ruffled enough feathers in here, due to MY shortsightedness on occasion. I am perfectly willing to accept and admit that there is a chance i could be entirely wrong in my comments of your design. it certainly wouldnt be the first time 🙂 but i have learnt alot, and many others posted very salient points which you disregard as if these people collect cans on the street all day. they dont, and neither do i. point being, even if your 10 times more knowledgable than i, there are at least 1 person who comments you ignore, that has more knowledge and experience than you.
the only point i dislike about your ideas, the stretching the BW of this horn, I believe, beyond the optimum for the driver. another way of seeing it maybe this: you get ~115dB in your BW right? by raising the cutoff above 100hz SPL can also increase a little due to decreased BW, and also perhaps phase behavior at the upper turnover, maybe slightly better. not to mention power handling.
eg.
the TB site quotes the w2-800sl as rated power of 10w. spl/w = 87dB
peak power is not 20 watts as quoted. rated most likely being RMS power, then peak is root(2)*RMS i.e. 14.1w peak.
i suggest you do the same calc with the rated power of your driver, and i think youll find the SPLs are a little lower. that is, unless hornresp uses the RMS power, in which case, ensure youve inputted the RATED and not peak power into the program. since im almost entirely certain 8 of the 1"ers will not tolerate 320w peak. the w2-800 takes about hmmm 3 watts fullrange before things get real ugly, hipassed above about 250hz the 10w RMS is believable. and this is a 2" driver i accept, with less xmax, but it still moves more air than the 1"er. thats a fact. volume = pressure in a horn throat as you know. and theres a limit to compression ratio. and a subtler limit of compression ratio that hornresp cannot include, the effect of pressure on the breakup of the cone. and rigid and light as these cones are, they still breakup. due to the lightness/stiffness ratio on both your driver and the 2"er im using, i would expect the breakup to 'avalanche' very rapidly beyond a certain point, and more severely or narrowly than other drivers.
how that would sound and at what point that would occur, i do not know, and i dont think youll know until you build them. i would design more conservatively, myself, for these reasons; since hornresp is brilliant, it is still a limited model, empirical asumptions are made, and driver FRD is not used either (the only thing i dont like). extreme data inputs,and extreme cases will be less accurate simulations. this would be compounded by the fact you have the red written 'Cir <1 for s...' for one of the sections, in your posted plots. this wouldve already warned you the accuracy of the sim is reduced (i believe in this case it does...), without simming with these drivers which in themsleves are an extreme case. HOW much accuracy is lost is anyones guess, but it illustrates that your input params are out of the intended scope of the programming.
by all means try it, but the sims as a result may not be as close as you think. maybe theyll be better, maybe miles worse. lol
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Woah, isn't that over-reacting a little?
We're just critic to your "proof". We all know that real life differs from the program you are using. That's why i want to either hear it myself or read about people who think your design is really good. If not, i wont trust your frequency graphs and all that stuff.
I don't say/think your design is bad and it will never work. But i wont think it's good unless more people can say it's good and that they've heard it with their own ears.
Why don't you build a pair and use them yourself in your little cabin out in the woods?
We're just critic to your "proof". We all know that real life differs from the program you are using. That's why i want to either hear it myself or read about people who think your design is really good. If not, i wont trust your frequency graphs and all that stuff.
I don't say/think your design is bad and it will never work. But i wont think it's good unless more people can say it's good and that they've heard it with their own ears.
Why don't you build a pair and use them yourself in your little cabin out in the woods?
I've built several pairs and several subwoofers and I have shared all of my designs and everyone who has heard them has been blown away. I built the little pink studio monitors and mini tapped horn subwoofer and gave it as a gift and the girl said she liked them almost as much as the BMW her dad bought her. I don't know what you people expect of me. You're basically telling me to quit sharing my designs untill I can prove that they are perfect. reality is not different from hornresp, David McBean has been working on this program since before I was born and he still continues to improve it on almost a monthly basis everything I have built has performed exactly as he said it would. I am disabled with absolutely no income and do not have the funds or the means to build everything i design all the time, but I like to share my ideas, why are you all so resistant to this. Why to think I'm starting a fight or ignoring your questions whenever I answer them? Why do you ignore my answers and keep asking the same questions over and over? I have solved or rebutted every issue that has been presented but the naysayers don't hear the answers and get mad because they didn't think of it so it can't possibly work. The few people who have been civil and respectful toward me, rjbond, t-stone and several more I would probably look to when I finally do establish my business building and designing speakers and home theaters, the rest of you I'll be suing for trying to use my designs that you were so sure wouldn't work!
I'd be far more upset if I were you brsanko......if I brought a model/design to this forum where I respect the critique of others, they wholeheartedly endorsed it, I spent and unruly amount of money and time building it, only to discover it sounds like armpit cheese........then I might be upset to your degree.
With such a claim as "this little driver seems to outperform everything else", a real build with real results is imperative.......because after all this is diyaudio (as in actually producing sound), not diy modeling. Reacting in the way you have, is a waste of this sites bandwidth sir.
With such a claim as "this little driver seems to outperform everything else", a real build with real results is imperative.......because after all this is diyaudio (as in actually producing sound), not diy modeling. Reacting in the way you have, is a waste of this sites bandwidth sir.
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I am very, very interested in brsanko's work. I can see everyone -is- trying to be helpful, and there are lots of misunderstandings, and tempers will flare.
My feeling is that brsanko's work is going to have very interesting results, but we're seeing things in the early stages. In my opinion, it would be great if we could have a thread for his work but without the controversial / heated debate that gets tempers going.
My feeling is that brsanko's work is going to have very interesting results, but we're seeing things in the early stages. In my opinion, it would be great if we could have a thread for his work but without the controversial / heated debate that gets tempers going.
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