I think insulated wire stators like THESE would be a better option and they could be segmented as well. The write up is Dutch but you can use Google Translate to read it.
Here is some more info for you jay53 to help you understand better.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/plan...st-esl-measurments-questions.html#post4062976
"This beaming starts to occur once the wavelength of the frequency being produced is equal to the width of the panels.
Typically at 1 to 4 octaves and above this is when it is really noticeable."
And even more here,
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/plan...st-esl-measurments-questions.html#post4064038
The Egg crate material doesn't have anything to do with the dispersion qualities of the sound being emitted from the panel as one would think.
It is a completely independent function of the overall physical dimensions of the panel and active radiating area of the diaphragm as per frequency being produced.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/plan...st-esl-measurments-questions.html#post4076362
Here is a picture of the two different sized panels I was referring to in my descriptions and my new segmented design that is the same size as my smaller original panel.
jer 🙂
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/plan...st-esl-measurments-questions.html#post4062976
"This beaming starts to occur once the wavelength of the frequency being produced is equal to the width of the panels.
Typically at 1 to 4 octaves and above this is when it is really noticeable."
And even more here,
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/plan...st-esl-measurments-questions.html#post4064038
The Egg crate material doesn't have anything to do with the dispersion qualities of the sound being emitted from the panel as one would think.
It is a completely independent function of the overall physical dimensions of the panel and active radiating area of the diaphragm as per frequency being produced.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/plan...st-esl-measurments-questions.html#post4076362
Here is a picture of the two different sized panels I was referring to in my descriptions and my new segmented design that is the same size as my smaller original panel.
jer 🙂
Attachments
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Interesting to hear your subjective comparison between the two. I wondered how it would compare with mine, but hadn’t shared because I didn’t want to provide any preconceived notions of what you might hear.
1) Did you feel the specificity of the image was different? (ie how pin-point was the image)
I recall that when listening to un-segmented panels, some pan-potted vocals/instruments could sound distractingly pin-point rather than of realistic size. In general the segmented panels provided more natural imaging like what I hear if I closed my eyes and listening to someone talking to me while walking back and forth between the speakers. A friend of mine likened the un-segmented imaging to turning on the “vivid” mode on some plasma TVs, making things look “realer” than real. Impressive in the short run, but unnatural and tiring to the senses after a while. Definitely open to personal preference though, as many people enjoy “vivid” mode.
2) Did you feel the depth of the image was different?
3) You mentioned sound coming from the speakers more…do you think that was the case?
Is it possible you were hearing more sound coming from the sides of the room(not the panels themselves) than you were used to after a few years of listening to highly directional panels? Or, perhaps a slight difference in the overall EQd sound?
In any case, this is definitely a difference between your experience and mine. I found the exact opposite to be the case. Often high frequency transients would seem to cling to the un-segmented panels while floating free from the segmented ones. Overall though they both did an amazing disappearing act, giving you the impression you could get up and walk around the stage with the performers. Speakers? what speakers. 😉
Is the EQ shown just for the ESL panels? Or is this for the overall speaker placed in line upstream of the electronic crossover. Oh, that looks to be a DEQ2496…I thought you used the DCX2496. Or are you using both?
Charlie Thanks for pointing this out. I think this is definitely a good option considering the limitations imposed.
Jayant
Jer,
That is a lot of work ! I have started reading. Understood some of it, some I need to reread. I may have to ask for advice / opinion as things become clearer to me. Thanks !
Jayant
Hi,
the stranded wires require short-distanced multi-point support like from a coube louvre.
In a ladder-design like the Audiostatics the supports are too far distanced.
Here one needed stiffer solid-core wire like H07-VU or H05-VU.
jauu
Calvin
the stranded wires require short-distanced multi-point support like from a coube louvre.
In a ladder-design like the Audiostatics the supports are too far distanced.
Here one needed stiffer solid-core wire like H07-VU or H05-VU.
jauu
Calvin
Hi Calvin,
So in an egg crate Louver Panel either Stranded wires or Solid Core Wires like H05/H07-VU may be used but only Solid Core H05 / H07-VU in a Ladder Structure ? I presume TIG Welding Rods with insulation or H05/ H07 - VU are both acceptable ?
Thanks !
Jayant
Hi Steve,
Boy, that's a lot of questions. I'm out of town for the weekend but I will post more impressions in the coming week and try to answer your questions.
I work 10-hr days during the week and spend every weekend out of town with my GF (a.k.a. "China Doll"). So, I don't have much time for listening to my new panels... I've only amassed maybe 8 hours with them so far and even less with both modes working.
Yes, it's possible that my impressions of the imaging differences were influenced by early reflections off adjacent walls (in the wide mode), as I don't have any acoustic treatments in the room (never needed any for the old beaming perf panels).
And in order to better assess the different modes, I really should have used the same music tracks for the comparisons, as imaging locational cues are in the recordings themselves and recordings very quite a lot.
I want to redo the entire tuning setup when I get back -- that is; after I've time-aligned the drivers with the DCX. BTW, I'm using both a DEQ and DCX and still learning how to use both of them. The signal path is as follows:
Laptop > wireless stream> Logitech Transporter > Toslink out > DEQ2496 > AES digital out > DCX2496 > RCA outs > [3] Carver TFM-25 amps > crossed-coax cables > Ripole subs + hybrid ESL's
I've never liked what "flat" sounds like as measured by the Behringer so I always do additional tweaking by ear. Be advised that the EQ screen shots I posted earlier were my tweaked curves and not the "flat" response curves generated by the Behringer.
After I retune the system I will post the baseline flat EQ settings according to the DEQ's auto-EQ for both channels and also any subsequent smoothing and tweaking by ear that I impose.
And BTW, the more I have a chance to listen, the more I'm loving the sound of the segmented panels in wide mode. They really do sound fabulous.
Jazz
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Yeah I know…not sure how my parents put up with my never ending stream of questions 😉
I did think of one think that may account for our different perceptions of the image clinging to the speakers. Your panels built with egg crate stator frames have vertical partitions that may be generating slightly delayed diffraction signals from the dispersive segmented panel that aren’t there with the un-segmented “beaming” panel. The panels I used for the comparison had no vertical partitions, only horizontal bars spaced ever 2”
No problem whatsoever with tweaking the curves so they sound right to your ear. As I mentioned in my email, I am quite interested to see how the tweaked curves compare…if your perception between the two would follow the theoretical 3dB/oct difference. The top octave likely shows more difference because the interaction between the transformers and larger capacitance of the un-segmented panels boosts the response more than the beaming alone does.
The Behringer “flat” response curves are based on un-gated measurements, so they may only be useful for a starting point. They are probably close to right for lower frequencies, but for mid-range and higher where our ears/brains judge level more by first arrival sounds there could be considerable variance depending on your room.
Two more insulated wire ESL projects documented in post#1 and #4 in this thread that you might find helpful:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/plan...-esl-project-file-translated.html#post2241752
Bolrest,
Many thanks for pointing this out. Presently I am traveling in the US and hence slow in responding. After some deliberation, I am inclining towards making an "Egg crate" machined out of MDF or Acrylic Sheet. It is a pity that I can not carry Egg Crate Louver back home.
Jayant
Hi,
Personally I prefer ladder-like structure. Of course it's only viable if one could order pre-cut horizontal supports or there is a simple way to machine them with high precision.
In my opinion MDF is not optimal choice due to it's water absorption and mediocre dimensional stability. Acrylic, in turn, could develop micro cracks after machine cutting which could spread during time. But this has to be experimented with, as there are many materials which look very similar but have very different resistance to cracking.
Regards,
Lukas.
Attachments
Hi Lukas,
I agree with you on both the counts reg. MDF & Stress Crazing of Acrylic and other Glassy Polymers. One may be able to mitigate the former with PU and other Coatings and later with properly stress relieved stock and careful post machining annealing. I have some experience with it.
However I wonder if it is possible to use Ladder Structure with TIG Welding Rods as I find it easier in my mind.
Jayant
I prefer the ladder type construction when using TIG rod.
Using .062 dia rod has much rigidity hardly any frame support is needed at all!!!
I am sure that it will be less using a smaller diameter such as .045 and even less with .032, but, it will not be so bad compared to older methods using pure copper wire.
This is the reason I had started using it in the first place back 2005.
There are several pictures of the TIG stator's to my unfinished set in these threads only they are not segmented.
The TIG rod supplies nearly all of the rigidity and support for my desktop model and my three pairs of 11" x 36" pieces using .062 rod.
1 to 3 center supports is all that is needed for the 36' length.
The last set I made only has 3 supports at a 9" spacing and it is way more than enough rigidity.
I am thinking only 1 or 2 center supports would be sufficient considering I soldered the whole thing together and burned up a soldering gun by the time I got as far as I did.
I would have built a jig and used some real heat had I known what I was doing at the time.
Back then the segmented design was in my head but I didn't quite understand the theory yet and was why they ended up as whole large panels instead.
Being that the rod diameter increased by some .015" to .025" when it is coated .045" diameter rod seems to be the best compromise with a smaller size and decreasing rigidity.
Although I have not tried any smaller diameter rod I plan to do so once I use up my .062 stock.
I am thinking of new larger build now to use up the two sheets of lighting crate that i have.
It will be of a frame style, cutting out large center area's and the frame will be as one whole piece.
Then I will box the framing using some super glue and some thin .020" flexible plastic strips (Mylar, Acetate) that I have a lot of that I got just for that purpose.
I used this method on my First designs that I have shown from 2003 and it works great!!
I did this becuase it was by far the cheapest method i could come up with at the time being a newbie and all, not to mention I used Alum. window screen for my stator material as well.
Much to my surprise they still turned out great!!
Using anything with more rigidity is always a big plus but there is also the effectiveness vs cost factor and was why I decided to use TIG rod vs Perforated Metal in my First large panel design.
I spent a bit over $200 in trying different materials and designs back in 2003 only to find the actual cost of good working panels were only $5 to $20 per pair depending on their size!!! He,he,he,he,he
And then........I was hooked for life...........!!! 😀
As far as the cracking issue is concerned maybe Lexan would be a better alternative.
I have a 3" x 1/4" x 48" piece of acrylic that I have been saving for a nice set of small clear panels and after sitting in the garage the last 10 years it is all cracked up too, and looks very ugly now!! :/
FWIW
jer 🙂
Using .062 dia rod has much rigidity hardly any frame support is needed at all!!!
I am sure that it will be less using a smaller diameter such as .045 and even less with .032, but, it will not be so bad compared to older methods using pure copper wire.
This is the reason I had started using it in the first place back 2005.
There are several pictures of the TIG stator's to my unfinished set in these threads only they are not segmented.
The TIG rod supplies nearly all of the rigidity and support for my desktop model and my three pairs of 11" x 36" pieces using .062 rod.
1 to 3 center supports is all that is needed for the 36' length.
The last set I made only has 3 supports at a 9" spacing and it is way more than enough rigidity.
I am thinking only 1 or 2 center supports would be sufficient considering I soldered the whole thing together and burned up a soldering gun by the time I got as far as I did.
I would have built a jig and used some real heat had I known what I was doing at the time.
Back then the segmented design was in my head but I didn't quite understand the theory yet and was why they ended up as whole large panels instead.
Being that the rod diameter increased by some .015" to .025" when it is coated .045" diameter rod seems to be the best compromise with a smaller size and decreasing rigidity.
Although I have not tried any smaller diameter rod I plan to do so once I use up my .062 stock.
I am thinking of new larger build now to use up the two sheets of lighting crate that i have.
It will be of a frame style, cutting out large center area's and the frame will be as one whole piece.
Then I will box the framing using some super glue and some thin .020" flexible plastic strips (Mylar, Acetate) that I have a lot of that I got just for that purpose.
I used this method on my First designs that I have shown from 2003 and it works great!!
I did this becuase it was by far the cheapest method i could come up with at the time being a newbie and all, not to mention I used Alum. window screen for my stator material as well.
Much to my surprise they still turned out great!!
Using anything with more rigidity is always a big plus but there is also the effectiveness vs cost factor and was why I decided to use TIG rod vs Perforated Metal in my First large panel design.
I spent a bit over $200 in trying different materials and designs back in 2003 only to find the actual cost of good working panels were only $5 to $20 per pair depending on their size!!! He,he,he,he,he
And then........I was hooked for life...........!!! 😀
As far as the cracking issue is concerned maybe Lexan would be a better alternative.
I have a 3" x 1/4" x 48" piece of acrylic that I have been saving for a nice set of small clear panels and after sitting in the garage the last 10 years it is all cracked up too, and looks very ugly now!! :/
FWIW
jer 🙂
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Hi,
I see there lots of people started using TIG welding rods. Perhaps this is mainly driven by cost and assumptions that building process is easier(at least initially). This may be true for smaller panels, or if you don't mind that stators are not insulated. For a large panel insulating those TIG rods may become a major and significant problem, both in time and cost. The insulation must be defect free, resistant to cracking and should not sustain fire by itself. Therefore PVC insulated wire seems to be a better approach overall, both in terms of reliability and safety. Of course, the decision is yours.
Regards,
Lukas.
Lukas,
Your comments appreciated and looking at Charlie's log you can see the TIG rod construction was a real pain. Spraying anything may work but is clearly not an "engineered" approach with predictable results and consistency.
Can you or other members offer a documented solution giving wire guage, covering and spacing to achieve same equivalent open area. This would be a real help to those of us with lesser skills.
Thanks
Your comments appreciated and looking at Charlie's log you can see the TIG rod construction was a real pain. Spraying anything may work but is clearly not an "engineered" approach with predictable results and consistency.
Can you or other members offer a documented solution giving wire guage, covering and spacing to achieve same equivalent open area. This would be a real help to those of us with lesser skills.
Thanks
Hi,
I use H05 single core, black wire that is used for common installations. It's rated at 300/500V but practice shows this seems to be enough. I have never had any instance of arching of any wire panel I have built, even under relatively harsh conditions.
When choosing wire, I buy some samples from different manufacturers and use one which appears to have stronger and better quality insulation.
H05 is good for D/S spacing in the range like 1.5 mm and up. This works best with larger panels.
For smaller stator to diaphragm spacing you may want to use thinner wire, say outer diameter in the order like 1-1.2 mm. My proposal for open area is in the order of 30 to 40%.
In any way the core should be solid(with exception being light louvers with small holes), and insulation PVC.
Also keep in mind that panel size has a very significant influence on SPL. Double area and you gain at least 6dB, assuming conditions like D/S spacing, voltages etc. are kept the same
So first you have to decide panel size, D/S spacing and other factors. Then choose wire.
Edit : when using wires you will not get away without building a stretching tool to get them really straight. Threaded rods are very useful in building such a tool.
Regards,
Lukas.
I use H05 single core, black wire that is used for common installations. It's rated at 300/500V but practice shows this seems to be enough. I have never had any instance of arching of any wire panel I have built, even under relatively harsh conditions.
When choosing wire, I buy some samples from different manufacturers and use one which appears to have stronger and better quality insulation.
H05 is good for D/S spacing in the range like 1.5 mm and up. This works best with larger panels.
For smaller stator to diaphragm spacing you may want to use thinner wire, say outer diameter in the order like 1-1.2 mm. My proposal for open area is in the order of 30 to 40%.
In any way the core should be solid(with exception being light louvers with small holes), and insulation PVC.
Also keep in mind that panel size has a very significant influence on SPL. Double area and you gain at least 6dB, assuming conditions like D/S spacing, voltages etc. are kept the same
So first you have to decide panel size, D/S spacing and other factors. Then choose wire.
Edit : when using wires you will not get away without building a stretching tool to get them really straight. Threaded rods are very useful in building such a tool.
Regards,
Lukas.
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Thanks.
For those of us in N,America this converts to approx 20 AWG for large panels and 22AWG for smaller panels.
Perhaps you would also share what method you use to achieve accurate spacing. Do you use these with lighting grid (egg crate louvers) or some other framework.
For those of us in N,America this converts to approx 20 AWG for large panels and 22AWG for smaller panels.
Perhaps you would also share what method you use to achieve accurate spacing. Do you use these with lighting grid (egg crate louvers) or some other framework.
Hi all!
I am back home now after a two week trip to the US.
During this trip, I had a memorable experience listening to Charlie’s Speakers in Savanah. My travel plans took me through Savanah and Charlie was more than accommodating. A gracious host that he is, he also took us through a tour of that beautiful historic City and we spent the evening talking, sharing and listening to music. We also discovered that besides Speakers, some of our other unusual reading interests too turned out to be common !
My previous experience in listening to Electrostatic Speakers is rather limited. On one occasion, I heard ML Speakers which felt rather wimpy - may be on account that they happened to be just unbundled and the sitting position wasn’t exactly optimal. On another occasion, I heard an entry level model of Cadence Audio of India which was enjoyable.
Charlie’s Speakers are bigger than either of the above with a much lower cross over to electrostat Panel from the Dynamic woofer. I was floored the moment first notes were played and never recovered from it for the rest of the evening. The Speakers played loud, crystal clear and with great imaging. Charlie said that on some tracks, he has heard even the sound of shuffling of feet that could have got recorded when someone may have tiptoed across ! The System is definitely that resolving and faithful to the signals. Though one knows that the line source level does not vary sharply in the intensity with changing distances, from the Speakers, to experience that was something. If I had to describe the music heard that heady evening, I would say it was like experiencing a drink with the punch of a good single malt whisky and gentle bouquet of delicately flavored wine – at the same time !
At the parting time, Charlie was most generous with the gift of his copy of “ Electrostatic Loudspeaker Design Cookbook “ by Sanders. This was particularly so since it is now out of print and difficult to come by. Thank You Charlie !
I left Savanah with a resolve to build a pair of Electrostatic Speakers of my own.
Jayant
I am back home now after a two week trip to the US.
During this trip, I had a memorable experience listening to Charlie’s Speakers in Savanah. My travel plans took me through Savanah and Charlie was more than accommodating. A gracious host that he is, he also took us through a tour of that beautiful historic City and we spent the evening talking, sharing and listening to music. We also discovered that besides Speakers, some of our other unusual reading interests too turned out to be common !
My previous experience in listening to Electrostatic Speakers is rather limited. On one occasion, I heard ML Speakers which felt rather wimpy - may be on account that they happened to be just unbundled and the sitting position wasn’t exactly optimal. On another occasion, I heard an entry level model of Cadence Audio of India which was enjoyable.
Charlie’s Speakers are bigger than either of the above with a much lower cross over to electrostat Panel from the Dynamic woofer. I was floored the moment first notes were played and never recovered from it for the rest of the evening. The Speakers played loud, crystal clear and with great imaging. Charlie said that on some tracks, he has heard even the sound of shuffling of feet that could have got recorded when someone may have tiptoed across ! The System is definitely that resolving and faithful to the signals. Though one knows that the line source level does not vary sharply in the intensity with changing distances, from the Speakers, to experience that was something. If I had to describe the music heard that heady evening, I would say it was like experiencing a drink with the punch of a good single malt whisky and gentle bouquet of delicately flavored wine – at the same time !
At the parting time, Charlie was most generous with the gift of his copy of “ Electrostatic Loudspeaker Design Cookbook “ by Sanders. This was particularly so since it is now out of print and difficult to come by. Thank You Charlie !
I left Savanah with a resolve to build a pair of Electrostatic Speakers of my own.
Jayant
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