I remember three days I spent one September in the Algonquin Provincial Park near your neck of the woods. The autumn colours were amazing. Best holiday experience of my life canoeing and camping alone there. I was worried about bears though. Made sure I was asleep before dark so I didn't worry about noises. On the same holiday my then wife and I were invited back to a sort of hippy colony on Hornby Island in BC. Nice people. Great country - Canada
Of course there is a slight advantage to the unusually warm weather.
My very high efficiency 100,000 BTU hot water heater (A.O. Smith Cyclone GDHE-50-100) for the fourth time in 8 years died. As it is also used for heating it is really an issue.
Has a quite smart control panel, so the first time it told me the flame sensor wasn't working. Turned out the control box was grounded to the tank. There are four 1/4-20 studs on the top of the tank that are used to hold in place the actual blower and burner assembly on top of the tank. The idea is that it blows the flame down through the tank and then out the exhaust pipe. It is so good at getting all the heat into the tank the exhaust pipe is PVC!
Problem was when they tightened the mounting nuts on the studs, they snapped them. So the ground wire lifted from the tank. The solution was to use another stud for the ground.
Second time there are wavy steel plates in the downward forced chimney to lengthen the exhaust path to recover more heat. These flake off rust and jammed the water drain path. This tripped the sensor that makes sure the exhaust is venting properly, so another shut down.
Third time, the fellow who installed it used flexible water coupling hoses. One failed drenching the control box. Changing the hose and a bit of drying time solved that. (Yes not a gizmo fault, but an authorized installer issue.)
This time the control system came up with an igniter does not draw enough current. No surprise the resistive igniter failed open. All you have to do is remove the blower burner assembly. The one with three bolts that were broken during manufacture and one that because it is obstructed by the blower motor had not been broken. So that nut was removed. Turns out I can't even pry the assembly out it was rammed in so much.
Even more fun there is an aluminum sacrificial anode in the tank to protect the other metal parts. It is also blocked in by the blower burner assembly.
So I don't think I will be buying A.O. Smith heaters again. (The Cyclone is their premium product about $3,000.00)
I decided I will replace the unit and repair it to keep as a spare. But quite simply while installed I can't use the tools that appear to be needed to repair it.
My solution is to replace the heater portion with a 140,000 BTU furnace made by Westinghouse Electric. (Apparently still U.S. made, but no longer just down the road.) It is a gas heated unit with a proportional flame system. It also offers a hot water outlet, but at a lower temperature than is normal. It is a continuous type heater, meaning it is not tank based.
I will also add an electric water heater. That way if gas or electric fails, no problem. If either unit fails, no problem!
Right now for heat I picked up two 1,500 watt electric heaters with a thermostat and tip-over safeties. With snow outside they cycle on and off keep my house at 70 F in the rooms they are in and the other rooms can drop as low as 66F. (I think this demonstrates my house is well insulated.)
I also brought from my shop a propane heater (Safe for indoor use! Doesn't register anything with my CO monitor!!) and an ancient 1,500 watt electric heater without thermostat or tip-over safety. I put the propane heater in the basement for plumbing protection heat.
So by Friday when everything is in I should be back to my usual. (Note I did not say normal as I don't think that applies to me or many here.)
My very high efficiency 100,000 BTU hot water heater (A.O. Smith Cyclone GDHE-50-100) for the fourth time in 8 years died. As it is also used for heating it is really an issue.
Has a quite smart control panel, so the first time it told me the flame sensor wasn't working. Turned out the control box was grounded to the tank. There are four 1/4-20 studs on the top of the tank that are used to hold in place the actual blower and burner assembly on top of the tank. The idea is that it blows the flame down through the tank and then out the exhaust pipe. It is so good at getting all the heat into the tank the exhaust pipe is PVC!
Problem was when they tightened the mounting nuts on the studs, they snapped them. So the ground wire lifted from the tank. The solution was to use another stud for the ground.
Second time there are wavy steel plates in the downward forced chimney to lengthen the exhaust path to recover more heat. These flake off rust and jammed the water drain path. This tripped the sensor that makes sure the exhaust is venting properly, so another shut down.
Third time, the fellow who installed it used flexible water coupling hoses. One failed drenching the control box. Changing the hose and a bit of drying time solved that. (Yes not a gizmo fault, but an authorized installer issue.)
This time the control system came up with an igniter does not draw enough current. No surprise the resistive igniter failed open. All you have to do is remove the blower burner assembly. The one with three bolts that were broken during manufacture and one that because it is obstructed by the blower motor had not been broken. So that nut was removed. Turns out I can't even pry the assembly out it was rammed in so much.
Even more fun there is an aluminum sacrificial anode in the tank to protect the other metal parts. It is also blocked in by the blower burner assembly.
So I don't think I will be buying A.O. Smith heaters again. (The Cyclone is their premium product about $3,000.00)
I decided I will replace the unit and repair it to keep as a spare. But quite simply while installed I can't use the tools that appear to be needed to repair it.
My solution is to replace the heater portion with a 140,000 BTU furnace made by Westinghouse Electric. (Apparently still U.S. made, but no longer just down the road.) It is a gas heated unit with a proportional flame system. It also offers a hot water outlet, but at a lower temperature than is normal. It is a continuous type heater, meaning it is not tank based.
I will also add an electric water heater. That way if gas or electric fails, no problem. If either unit fails, no problem!
Right now for heat I picked up two 1,500 watt electric heaters with a thermostat and tip-over safeties. With snow outside they cycle on and off keep my house at 70 F in the rooms they are in and the other rooms can drop as low as 66F. (I think this demonstrates my house is well insulated.)
I also brought from my shop a propane heater (Safe for indoor use! Doesn't register anything with my CO monitor!!) and an ancient 1,500 watt electric heater without thermostat or tip-over safety. I put the propane heater in the basement for plumbing protection heat.
So by Friday when everything is in I should be back to my usual. (Note I did not say normal as I don't think that applies to me or many here.)
Something with big transmitter tubes should keep you warm.
jeff
Yess.Wearing worm clothes can keep you warm too.
Thanks for the insight, I tried it while bathing, didn't work...
My place is surprisingly comfortable with just two small electric heaters, until I get the electric bill. However if I look at the cost of my old appliance plus utility bill, the portable electric heaters are less expensive! ($21 each! Electricity $.08 per KWH total cost.)
I imagine most folks without heat in the winter would worry a bit. I just find it an amusing diversion and a small bit of an engineering problem.
Now if two 1,500 watt heaters can keep my house warm enough with a thirty degree differential, what size heating system do I need?
Last edited:
It was between 28 and 34F on the drive from the ancestral homeland to the PRNJ. No meaningful accidents on I-80 save for a ricer totaled near Rockaway NJ -- he tangled with a tractor-trailer and lost.
Euro-area residential electricity costs EUR 0.22/kWh
Me and mamselle were going to buy a house on the shore in Erie PA - had its own natural gas well -- just had to pay a toll fee to Harrisburg! (We bought a house in Ohio to be closer to relatives).
What is your weather??
Pittsburgh gets zero F every winter, but was -22F once. I'd design for -10F.
This is 80F rise wanted.
1 W is equal to 3.41 BTU/h. 3,000W is 10,200BTU/h. This gives 30F rise.
80F/30F is 2.66 times more heat needed. 27,000BTU/h
This is believable. I figured my house a little less, installed a 38k BTH/h furnace. On the worst days it runs 20 hours (much of that off-time for the several degree setback at midnight). With the cycle efficiency of modern burners it is quite reasonable to buy 1.5X even 2X the heat you need.
I have an on-demand gas 119kBTU/h water heater. Troubled. I installed a 18kBTU/h electric storage tank.
Even though your electric rate is half of mine, it is stupid to run a whole house on electric heat near Pittsburgh unless it was grossly super-insulated. I looked at that for my garage loft and realized the first month electric bill would pay for a LOT of added insulation; or justify a propane installation.
I don't know what is good for hot-water heat. But you don't need 100kBTU to heat that house. You might for on-demand showers, but storage could well be cheaper to buy and to keep fixing.
Last edited:
Thanks quite a bit! 100,000 BTU was the smallest high efficiency tank water heater I could find at the time! My replacement furnace has a proportional control but peaks at 140,000 BTU! Again I couldn't find one smaller. It can be programmed to run lower.
My approach has been to use an individual thermostat for each room, so when it gets really cold to apportion the heat. I first tried just in floor radiant heat. Didn't work well enough through the wood floors when the temperature dropped below the teens. So I added 20' total of baseboard radiators in four of the rooms.
Primary heat has always been natural gas as that is unlikely to run out in my lifetime.
BTY only one of the heaters runs close to full time! The one in my bedroom coasts most of the time! The house was built with two wood burning fire places for heat, no north facing windows and most of the rest south facing. I added a total envelope of insulation.
Thanks again.
My approach has been to use an individual thermostat for each room, so when it gets really cold to apportion the heat. I first tried just in floor radiant heat. Didn't work well enough through the wood floors when the temperature dropped below the teens. So I added 20' total of baseboard radiators in four of the rooms.
Primary heat has always been natural gas as that is unlikely to run out in my lifetime.
BTY only one of the heaters runs close to full time! The one in my bedroom coasts most of the time! The house was built with two wood burning fire places for heat, no north facing windows and most of the rest south facing. I added a total envelope of insulation.
Thanks again.
Last edited:
Lucky buggers. Some places in Australia are seeing around 50 celsius (122F) over the last few weeks. Even suburbs of Sydney are having 47 degrees which is extremely rare. Luckily we've only had a 45 so far this summer. One of our state's country towns had 24 days straight of over 40C temperatures.
And our hottest months are ahead of us...
This Totally Real Map Makes It Look Like Australia Is on Fire, And It Kinda Is
And our hottest months are ahead of us...
This Totally Real Map Makes It Look Like Australia Is on Fire, And It Kinda Is
Last edited:
I've sort of avoided this thread for a while now, because it's not that cold really.
Should be -5 to -15ºc, but it's mostly +7 to -2ºc...
Just a little bit more snow would help make the cross country ski tracks a little bit less bobsleigh+ice rink -ish.
Don't like being outside, too slippery, rock solid snow...
Should be -5 to -15ºc, but it's mostly +7 to -2ºc...
Just a little bit more snow would help make the cross country ski tracks a little bit less bobsleigh+ice rink -ish.
Don't like being outside, too slippery, rock solid snow...
I should clarify that I installed hot-air furnace. I know little about hot water heat. (I had two houses with steam heat, a lost art.)
As you say, the repairs on the over-complicated "high efficiency" machines can exceed the cost of the gas. NatGas is cheap. Controller boards (or their silly screws) and super baffles fail.
_I_ would consider plain basic gas water heaters. The standard size for a tank-heater is 40,000BTU/h. This might be ample. Rheem 9-year costs $650 each in a box. The tank is not much use in a heating rig, but it is a standard product, well refined, priced competitively. As it may be marginal, you could rig two in parallel and have twice the heat you need. Standby losses on modern tanks are very low, but you could turn one off in shoulder season.
Also:
Heating Help: The Wall
Domestic Hot Water — Heating Help: The Wall
Radiant Heating — Heating Help: The Wall
As you say, the repairs on the over-complicated "high efficiency" machines can exceed the cost of the gas. NatGas is cheap. Controller boards (or their silly screws) and super baffles fail.
_I_ would consider plain basic gas water heaters. The standard size for a tank-heater is 40,000BTU/h. This might be ample. Rheem 9-year costs $650 each in a box. The tank is not much use in a heating rig, but it is a standard product, well refined, priced competitively. As it may be marginal, you could rig two in parallel and have twice the heat you need. Standby losses on modern tanks are very low, but you could turn one off in shoulder season.
Also:
Heating Help: The Wall
Domestic Hot Water — Heating Help: The Wall
Radiant Heating — Heating Help: The Wall
Actually parallel water heaters are a good idea. A single failure won't even be an issue.
As to hot air, there is an abundance of it on this website.
I did allow space for ducts when I renovated my house. The old system has hot air with the ducts on the surface of the walls! The furnace was ancient and less than 50% efficient and the chimney pipes had failed so it was discharging into the basement. The previous owner had crammed newspaper into every crack he could find. As the house was uninsulated, he had to be quite uncomfortable. The forced air heat upgrade from the original wood fired stoves had the wood chimneys abandoned and a new one literally slapped into the side of the house. They left the inside part of one chimney and removed that from the other leaving a gap in the thickness of the brick wall. I removed the added chimney before it fell off. That also required patching the roof!
Expected to drop to the teens Thursday morning, so I will put a bit more heat in the basement.
Parts of my new stuff have started arriving. One annoying issue is that the old water heater has shut off valves for the hot water out and both attachments to the heating loops but none on the cold water in! So I have a bit of draining to do before changing things!
I learned plumbing from my father. In WWII he was in the Corp of Engineers and was responsible for building and maintaining a water plant on Okinawa to support the planned invasion army for Japan. Imagine building a complete plumbing system for a city of 300,000! I still have his tools.
Thanks again for the interesting discourse.
So we now have two experts including Cal on roofing who has also been a great help in the past. My shop roof has never been better.
As to hot air, there is an abundance of it on this website.
I did allow space for ducts when I renovated my house. The old system has hot air with the ducts on the surface of the walls! The furnace was ancient and less than 50% efficient and the chimney pipes had failed so it was discharging into the basement. The previous owner had crammed newspaper into every crack he could find. As the house was uninsulated, he had to be quite uncomfortable. The forced air heat upgrade from the original wood fired stoves had the wood chimneys abandoned and a new one literally slapped into the side of the house. They left the inside part of one chimney and removed that from the other leaving a gap in the thickness of the brick wall. I removed the added chimney before it fell off. That also required patching the roof!
Expected to drop to the teens Thursday morning, so I will put a bit more heat in the basement.
Parts of my new stuff have started arriving. One annoying issue is that the old water heater has shut off valves for the hot water out and both attachments to the heating loops but none on the cold water in! So I have a bit of draining to do before changing things!
I learned plumbing from my father. In WWII he was in the Corp of Engineers and was responsible for building and maintaining a water plant on Okinawa to support the planned invasion army for Japan. Imagine building a complete plumbing system for a city of 300,000! I still have his tools.
Thanks again for the interesting discourse.
So we now have two experts including Cal on roofing who has also been a great help in the past. My shop roof has never been better.
In the UK we have a mass of poorly insulated housing largely from Victorian times with nine inch solid brick walls. I live in one of them - though mine's Edwardian. There will have to be a massive insulation project countrywide to reduce heating requirements. I think they will soon stop the installation of gas fired boilers in new housing stock which is of course better insulated and more suited to heat pumps.
The fellow who built my house learned his trade in Victorian times. I did loose 8" of inside space to get in the insulation. The doors and windows were replaced by modern ones. I built the front door to look more than 100 years old.
Obviously the insulation has been a great benefit.
But your advantage is milder weather and mine is abundant natural gas.
Obviously the insulation has been a great benefit.
But your advantage is milder weather and mine is abundant natural gas.
That's a useful amount of insulation. I've added some in the alcoves and it made quite a difference.
I think we've still got enough natural gas but we need to change to renewable energy.
