From Surround: The Current Technological Situation by David Griesinger, Page 15 & 16
Small rooms get the biggest payoff.
How long of past are you referring to?
Better in what aspect?
How do you know that?
That's a lousy answer to Evenharmonics who is simply questioning your conclusions. I have many of the same reservations about what you posted.
So if your not willing to defend your claims please don't bother posting them to being with.
I hope this won't shatter your consciousness, but your dismissal of 2 channel stereo as flawed and weak is not shared by everyone here.
So if your not willing to defend your claims please don't bother posting them to being with.
I hope this won't shatter your consciousness, but your dismissal of 2 channel stereo as flawed and weak is not shared by everyone here.
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@classical fan
Two channel *is* flawed, let’s not get too carried away. But I do agree that it being *weak* is a matter of opinion. If stereo reproduction hasn’t been captivating in major respects I doubt most of its detractors would bother to be here arguing against its merits in the first place.
Two channel *is* flawed, let’s not get too carried away. But I do agree that it being *weak* is a matter of opinion. If stereo reproduction hasn’t been captivating in major respects I doubt most of its detractors would bother to be here arguing against its merits in the first place.
I thought he really knows something to enlighten us (stereo enthusiasts) but turns out that he doesn't.
All bickering aside, I'd like to know the practical side to this. If 2 channel stereo is so flawed that it should be replaced, what do we do with 60+ years of stereo recordings? Most of my favorite music and performances are recorded in a 2 channel format. Some are in mono.
If the music world suddenly decides to start recording to SMPTE multichannel standards, that would be great IMO. But should I listen only to these new recordings? Or do we need some sort of 21st century AI version of Dolby Prologic decoders for our new multichannel playback systems?
If the music world suddenly decides to start recording to SMPTE multichannel standards, that would be great IMO. But should I listen only to these new recordings? Or do we need some sort of 21st century AI version of Dolby Prologic decoders for our new multichannel playback systems?
Interesting question and one I ponder. I still think I am missing something listening to mono in 2 channels so really need to sort that. Centre channel might work then I can deal with phantom image issues on stereo.
For certain classical recordings with true minimal miking you can extract some ambience from them with simple processing to rear speakers.
Then you have quadrophonic and 5.1 recordings. Suddenly Gerzon's dream of a soundfield that is captured in a way that automatically adapts to the number of channels you have seems genius ahead of it's time.
I should also note I don't think stereo should be replaced, but I think further improvements can be made.
For certain classical recordings with true minimal miking you can extract some ambience from them with simple processing to rear speakers.
Then you have quadrophonic and 5.1 recordings. Suddenly Gerzon's dream of a soundfield that is captured in a way that automatically adapts to the number of channels you have seems genius ahead of it's time.
I should also note I don't think stereo should be replaced, but I think further improvements can be made.
Good question. In a 2016 interview with Sound and Vision Sean Olive said they've had a hard time moving consumers to multichannel.
The difference in 2021 is that music catalogs (and movies/TV) are streaming. They all live on servers. Those servers are hosted by Google, Amazon, Apple, and a few others like Tidal. The Googles, however, sell speakers now. Also, their core competence is computation. They're going to recreate 60+ years of music AND movies.
I also think there's a notion that the original recording are somehow pure. The old recordings had bad equipment in bad rooms, possibly mixed by engineers with hearing damage. Also, it's a recording. It isn't even the original performance. A computer recreation will probably be truer to the original performance than the original recording.
What Pano and Bill are discussing interests me most. My earlier post did not generate discussion, which is fine because I am not caught up. Years ago, when I did make a 6.1 HT setup, there was not enough magic for me. The was high ambiguity in surround speaker placement (I guess this was addressed in a more recent Dolby standard?). Films were cool to have explosions coming in over my big subwoofer, and projectiles moving between centre front and centre rear. However, a big "so what" for music, especially if no visual content.
Is there a "safe" or "lite" multichannel music setup? Something that almost always sounds better on any source, like for example a Hafler matrix?
Is there a "safe" or "lite" multichannel music setup? Something that almost always sounds better on any source, like for example a Hafler matrix?
I don't really see any conceptual advantage of multichannel over stereo for music.
Certainly I do not want any instruments placed behind me since that strikes me as highly unnatural because I have not attended any concert at which I was sitting amongst the musicians.
It seems a waste to employ extra speakers and amplifiers merely for reverb tails.
The best stereo recordings I've heard sound as if a window opens up between the speakers into the space where the recording happened. That is as far as I want things to go, I do not want to impose the recording space ambience onto my room.
Certainly I do not want any instruments placed behind me since that strikes me as highly unnatural because I have not attended any concert at which I was sitting amongst the musicians.
It seems a waste to employ extra speakers and amplifiers merely for reverb tails.
The best stereo recordings I've heard sound as if a window opens up between the speakers into the space where the recording happened. That is as far as I want things to go, I do not want to impose the recording space ambience onto my room.
LOL. Well I did nod my head in silent agreement, but that probably didn't make it thru the forum software.
Should have posted a +1I have used a number of processors that derive ambient channels from 2 channel recordings, most notably the Yamaha DSP-100 and its descendants built into Yamaha HT receivers. Also JRiver's decoder and some Lexicon and other convolver plugins. All good fun and nice, but a simple surround derived from the out of phase signal is what I find the most convincing and most pleasant. Stupid simple.
Will someone come up with a real time AI stereo-to-multichannel decoder that sounds convincing and not fake? Will it be tweakable? Yes, probably. But I have not heard it yet.
The best two channel stereo speakers I've personally heard in terms of immersion are DML CBT arrays. Not only that but I built them so I have huge personal bias working in my favor. Nevertheless, I don't hold any emotional attachment to them. If I was like some other people I'd go on and on about how lifelike they are and how they envelop you, "Oh, I've never heard anything like them, it's like a sonic enema of pure delight that cleans my very soul."
No, dude. Multichannel would clearly be better. The arrays suffer from all the same two channel stereo problems all normal two channel stereo speakers suffer from.
Sean Olive and Floyd Toole have listened to the very best two channel stereo speakers in the very best rooms and both say multichannel is the future. But some person in a forum has heard better in his acoustically treated room? Sure, that's credible.
No, dude. Multichannel would clearly be better. The arrays suffer from all the same two channel stereo problems all normal two channel stereo speakers suffer from.
Sean Olive and Floyd Toole have listened to the very best two channel stereo speakers in the very best rooms and both say multichannel is the future. But some person in a forum has heard better in his acoustically treated room? Sure, that's credible.
It was a dedicated music room which is obviously easier to work on for optimal acoustics than typical family room or basement (usually low ceiling) converted to man-cave.
Most music venues people attend have the performers in front. The ambient sound is the room effect unless it's an outdoor venue. Stereo system fits the bill if right kind of speakers are chosen and the room is set up well.