For me using a 24db LR active crossover, 750hz seemed better than 2khz.
And 5khz seemed alright.
But I'm a full range driver guy, so take it what it is worth.
If you do 6db crossover, I think you can cross anywhere.
And 5khz seemed alright.
But I'm a full range driver guy, so take it what it is worth.
If you do 6db crossover, I think you can cross anywhere.
160-2,500 Hz..
dave
The highest soprano's rarely ever reach beyond 1.5 kHz - and for the most part I'd describe much of that extended high freq. as treble, not midrange.
Of course I'd also describe the midrange as extending lower than 160 Hz as well - male baritones can reach below 90 Hz.
equitable division by octave (standard definition):
low bass 20-40
mid bass 40-80
upper bass 80-160
lower mids 160-320
mids 320 - 640
mids 640 - 1.25 k
upper mids 1.25-2.5k
lower treble 2.5-5k
treble 5-10k
upper treble 10-20k
dave
low bass 20-40
mid bass 40-80
upper bass 80-160
lower mids 160-320
mids 320 - 640
mids 640 - 1.25 k
upper mids 1.25-2.5k
lower treble 2.5-5k
treble 5-10k
upper treble 10-20k
dave
equitable division by octave (standard definition):
low bass 20-40
mid bass 40-80
upper bass 80-160
lower mids 160-320
mids 320 - 640
mids 640 - 1.25 k
upper mids 1.25-2.5k
lower treble 2.5-5k
treble 5-10k
upper treble 10-20k
dave
By what standard? A Piano?
It doesn't make any sense for a Human. 😉
But but,,, human voice and an instrument's sound is mostly harmonic overtones!
Even the violin which sounds very clean
And here flute as example http://www2.siba.fi/akustiikka/index.php?id=42&la=en
Even the violin which sounds very clean

And here flute as example http://www2.siba.fi/akustiikka/index.php?id=42&la=en
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A dogma is a principle set down by an authority as incontrovertible true.
If it is actually true or not is an entirely different story.
Dogmas are usually used to stifle open discussion within the ranks. Certain institutions rely heavily on dogma to assure their continued existence.
+1
According to wikipedia, the midrange is from 300hz to 5khz
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-range_speaker
...which is a bit too wide if you ask me.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-range_speaker
...which is a bit too wide if you ask me.
+1 for the bulk energy range !
Which horn and CD combo is good enough to cover 250-3.5K ? Below 500-600 Hz too much horn, what ever the CD, seem not to be good enough if allowed to cover as well the upper frequency (i.e. a 2" CD !). below those average 500 hz : most of horns give a too thin sound or miss to do good upper mid if this low range is good in relation to the horn choosed for the low FR qualities (at least this is my understanding).
About the OP, the crossover is a question of radiation patern, not just frequencies : you must choose a diameter cone which is usable and have to make trade offs !
Even a wide band driver do not all good ! 100 hz to 8000 hz FR drivers are coherent but have weakness (soundstage, tonal balance according to me....): choose your poison.
I have a 5" crossed 125 hz to 2600 Hz... Not bad, but as ScottL (and not for the same reasons - I'm not concerned by tubes and high sensivity speakers), I believe this low mid-bass range needs something energic with a great dynamic to make it lively... but lightly enough (it's not just a boum-boum range, far of it in fact, let say between the energy and resolution needs and that's why it's so hard to do for many designers. I'm not sure the only air impedance front loading of a horn (at least in a normal space, (i.e. not 5 meters horn with only 3 meter of space listening in front of it as seen in certain exceptional setups!) is enough in this range, though never heard a 4"CD in this range !
+1 also for Juhazi : but the horn , it's difficult to find a driver which is all good from usuable 800 hz to 4000 hz or more : most of the time they are too "light in the low if they climbs too much !
The line arrays seem one of the solution sometimes to resolve those problems : you can in the low end have a multipe array of bass or mid bass or make more little speakers with an array of little drivers : lookt at links from others designers in Linkwitz site or here array in Full Range Forum !
But no doubt a good designer is abble to cut in the range you talk about : Gedlee speaker are highly appreciated.
Maybe that's why OS waveguide found a "niche" : difficult to find a profile horn which sounds good in a little domestic space !
There are a lot of trade offs to choose in a speaker and you highlighted just one, imho...
Many of the old classic 2-ways crossed at 500 Hz. The belief was, this divided the spectral energy range in half, exactly. Speed up to this day and age, and in my opinion the "bulk energy range" is 300-400Hz. The only way (thus far) that I have been able to get a wide band driver to cover 250-3.5K
is to horn load it (it, is a TB W8-1772). After living with this for 2 pretty much satisfactory years, I now yearn for something different. Initially, I wanted to revisit the classics, by using a compression driver/horn combo from 500 up to as high as I could get way with (5K ?) And place a mid bass horn (bulk energy) from 500 Hz down to as low as I could obtain (additional subs for the lowest). Mentioned elsewhere, building a mid bass horn is too time consuming for me right now; I'll replace the horn loaded mid range with
something else, to cover 250-3.5K. I'll be amazed if it works to my satisfaction, but I will never know until I try. Re-addressing other possible crossover points, 80-800 covers almost all the fundamentals, and the bulk energy range is within this range, so to speak. But, this is just another "choose your decade" and decide what will work (?) Perhaps one of the modern professional 15 inch drivers would fit the bill. Finally, getting back to crossovers and how to get them right; here's my take: I have had the best success (sound quality wise) with 18db/oct butterworth, while maintaining a linear response one octave to either side of the crossover point, before the crossover is even applied. In this manner (I'm speaking active, of course) the electrical 18db/oct will be preserved as correct , considering the final acoustic results.
S's and it's ring around 8khz.
If time aligned, voice intelligibility improves (6db crossovers and full range drivers).
If time aligned, voice intelligibility improves (6db crossovers and full range drivers).
But but,,, human voice and an instrument's sound is mostly harmonic overtones!
Even the violin which sounds very clean
And here flute as example Basics of Acoustics – The harmonic spectrum and the formants
The Human voice is mostly pure-tone with harmonics in the range of 100-500 Hz. However, consonant sibilance (leading impulse) often extends beyond 1 kHz - where our hearing becomes more acute to locational cues.
The violin is a very harmonic instrument, but "mild" in comparison to something like a saxophone.
The flute (std.) is an instrument I'd mostly characterize as producing treble. (..and having played this instrument in a school orchestra - that's exactly what the other players thought as well. I switched to the sax later when I could carry it. 😀 )
Why 1.5khz would be ''more dangerous'' than 150hz or 8khz ?
A bad integration, on the other hand... THAT might be the culprit. Maybe people are following that dogma just because they are not able to make a good mid/tweeter integration ?
You have answered youre own question there. Many systems nowadays use small 1 inch dome tweeters with 6 to 7 inch woofers crossed at 1.5 kHz. The dome is just way too small to cope with the dynamics of the woofer in that range.
Secondly, this is the most sensitive area in human hearing and in my experience if you must crossover in this range be sure both driver share the same tonal character. Many would be surprised that a paper woofer with a paper cone tweeter crossed at 1,5k almost always sounds better then the same woofer with a soft or metal dome. With driver of too different sonic character I always cross no lower the 3kHz. Too many people are only looking at wave lenghts for to determine the crossover point but there is a lot more then that.
You have answered youre own question there. Many systems nowadays use small 1 inch dome tweeters with 6 to 7 inch woofers crossed at 1.5 kHz. The dome is just way too small to cope with the dynamics of the woofer in that range.
Secondly, this is the most sensitive area in human hearing and in my experience if you must crossover in this range be sure both driver share the same tonal character. Many would be surprised that a paper woofer with a paper cone tweeter crossed at 1,5k almost always sounds better then the same woofer with a soft or metal dome. With driver of too different sonic character I always cross no lower the 3kHz. Too many people are only looking at wave lenghts for to determine the crossover point but there is a lot more then that.
from where i stand, the only acceptable 2-way design is a fullrange with a subwoofer.
Otherwise, go 3 or 4-way.
from where i stand, the only acceptable 2-way design is a fullrange with a subwoofer.
Often a subwoofer won't blend well with a FR. I like midwoofers with more extended range and a smooth roll-off at the top.

dave
2-way design is a fullrange with a subwoofer.
Where all crossing is done below 1kHz? I can live with that, even if I do it with completely different drivers and enclosures.midwoofers with more extended range and a smooth roll-off at the top.
By the way Dave, I like the baffles on those speakers.
I agree that the needs (and options) with driver spacing change with the vertical directivity (I realise you're probably only talking about the relative negative effect of lobing compared with the needs of a driver.).Too many people are only looking at wave lenghts for to determine the crossover point but there is a lot more then that.
Thanx. Chris wanted to experiment with vacuum bagging. Veneer is ribbon mahogany.
XO is 1st order PLLXO at 160 Hz.
The treated SDX7eN roll off smoothly at 1.6k.
dave
XO is 1st order PLLXO at 160 Hz.
The treated SDX7eN roll off smoothly at 1.6k.
dave
They are beautiful. I find the layout is reminiscent that there is a relationship between a flat baffle and a waveguide. The ports are unique and quite clever.
I also happen to be a fan of the PLLXO. I bi-amp in the 150-300Hz region.
I also happen to be a fan of the PLLXO. I bi-amp in the 150-300Hz region.
The woofers are sealed. The A7.3eN are in an aperiodic midTL (a strip across the top) -- the sides are really the only place the vent could be.
dave
dave
I've found (listening loudly, of course) that crossing 150hz @ 24db/octave works pretty well on most everything except drum drops (think beginning of Elo's "Evil Woman", 20-25 seconds in).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R20f-TPKjzc
On my 12" full ranger, I'm not sure sliding the active crossover down from 150hz to 100hz has made any of a difference except for more straining.
Norman
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R20f-TPKjzc
On my 12" full ranger, I'm not sure sliding the active crossover down from 150hz to 100hz has made any of a difference except for more straining.
Norman
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