Call me crazy but the plan to go for the 10F series is growing by the minute.
I still have some questions pending though.
I spend today going over a lot of options, just to see if I missed anything. From everything I could find, the 10F is the one that impresses most with it's data. Second best probably is the no longer available TG9, suffering from the same construction as the third candidate the TC9.
Visaton B80 is a hair too big, lots of others are too small or can't really compete.
In every way I look at it, the 10F is an updated family member of the TC9/TG9 series. It shares basically all dimensions, while being equipped with an aluminium basket, glass fiber cone and a strong high Bl neodymium motor.
From all possible full range candidates I looked at, it had the strongest motor of all. Except for it's closed spider brother, the 8424G00. The one I use for ambient duty (thanks to @BYRTT )
I even began some preliminary preparation work:
I'm not doing this for bragging rights. I just don't like what happened with the TC9 drivers and don't expect to get a clear answer there.
Due to my recent health troubles I quit smoking, I can pay for this upgrade by what I save there alone...
(well, almost)
As TNT put it so eloquently: YOLO!
For now I'll still fix the most recent broken driver while I seriously ponder about my options. Somehow, I can't get as exited by the thought of replacing the TC9's with a batch of new TC9's. Some of my faith in them has been lost.
I still have some questions pending though.
I spend today going over a lot of options, just to see if I missed anything. From everything I could find, the 10F is the one that impresses most with it's data. Second best probably is the no longer available TG9, suffering from the same construction as the third candidate the TC9.
Visaton B80 is a hair too big, lots of others are too small or can't really compete.
In every way I look at it, the 10F is an updated family member of the TC9/TG9 series. It shares basically all dimensions, while being equipped with an aluminium basket, glass fiber cone and a strong high Bl neodymium motor.
From all possible full range candidates I looked at, it had the strongest motor of all. Except for it's closed spider brother, the 8424G00. The one I use for ambient duty (thanks to @BYRTT )
I even began some preliminary preparation work:
I'm not doing this for bragging rights. I just don't like what happened with the TC9 drivers and don't expect to get a clear answer there.
Due to my recent health troubles I quit smoking, I can pay for this upgrade by what I save there alone...
(well, almost)As TNT put it so eloquently: YOLO!
For now I'll still fix the most recent broken driver while I seriously ponder about my options. Somehow, I can't get as exited by the thought of replacing the TC9's with a batch of new TC9's. Some of my faith in them has been lost.
Attachments
I'm certainly not going to call you crazy: i say Jump!
Maybe it's your gif telling me that but...
Do it.
Congrat for quiting smoking! I will soon too. It should help me moving forward with my my own projects too... so much money disappeared in smoke! I don't want to think about it and how dumb i'am.
Maybe it's your gif telling me that but...
Do it.
Congrat for quiting smoking! I will soon too. It should help me moving forward with my my own projects too... so much money disappeared in smoke! I don't want to think about it and how dumb i'am.
I'm still a bit dazzled by what happened to my array drivers. This is a sh#$$# thing to happen if you just upgraded the arrays with filters. Even more bad timing during my health troubles. I do hope the two weren't related .
Neh...
Anyway, to really get to the bottom of it I hacked up the other 3 drivers. All of the voice coils were still functional, the lead wires were o.k. till the contact point under the dome. So that confirms the cause and I can expect more to follow that faith. One has already happened, I didn't have the time yet to get that fixed. That's number six, we're well over 10% failure rate now.
I know my garage isn't the most ideal place for storing electronics (no heating) but hadn't figured it was this bad.
The motivation to invest more money into the TC9 driver has reached an all time low for me. So keep them comfy in your homes, don't make the mistake I made.
.Neh...
Anyway, to really get to the bottom of it I hacked up the other 3 drivers. All of the voice coils were still functional, the lead wires were o.k. till the contact point under the dome. So that confirms the cause and I can expect more to follow that faith. One has already happened, I didn't have the time yet to get that fixed. That's number six, we're well over 10% failure rate now.
I know my garage isn't the most ideal place for storing electronics (no heating) but hadn't figured it was this bad.
The motivation to invest more money into the TC9 driver has reached an all time low for me. So keep them comfy in your homes, don't make the mistake I made.
Doubt
I doubt the garage-storage hypothesis. Low temperatures are unlikely to cause trouble. Increased moisture could accelerate failure, but the glue is likely to be reasonably moisture resistant. Since Scan Speak, to their credit, confirmed problems with corrosion due to glue, it's most likely that's the problem with the TC9s too. Likely similar glue and lead-free solder is used. If the effect is purely chemical it is probably just a matter of time. Fatigue may play a role - if that's the case, playing loud for a while is probably worse than rare handling shock, unless extreme.
Ken
I doubt the garage-storage hypothesis. Low temperatures are unlikely to cause trouble. Increased moisture could accelerate failure, but the glue is likely to be reasonably moisture resistant. Since Scan Speak, to their credit, confirmed problems with corrosion due to glue, it's most likely that's the problem with the TC9s too. Likely similar glue and lead-free solder is used. If the effect is purely chemical it is probably just a matter of time. Fatigue may play a role - if that's the case, playing loud for a while is probably worse than rare handling shock, unless extreme.
Ken
Well, it's the increased moisture level that I know happens each fall/spring inside the garage. It most certainly isn't as dry in there as in my living room. If I put a cardboard box in there I can see it slowly soaking up moisture over time (swell up a little).
Both arrays have been stored there, while being opened up for a few weeks at a time during the 'wetter than usual' season. It wasn't until late fall that I started with placement of the filters and I continued with it in the early spring season.
Anyway, I'm kind of hoping others don't have to share my faith with these arrays build with the TC9 FD18-08. There have been quite a few builds out there.
Both arrays have been stored there, while being opened up for a few weeks at a time during the 'wetter than usual' season. It wasn't until late fall that I started with placement of the filters and I continued with it in the early spring season.
Anyway, I'm kind of hoping others don't have to share my faith with these arrays build with the TC9 FD18-08. There have been quite a few builds out there.
Last edited:
About the 10F 8414G10 I found this bit of information online:
However, upon asking a representative of Scan Speak I get the following information:
Voice coil wire: CCAW, 15% copper
Connectionwire: Cu
Voice coil former: Glass fiber
A bit less exotic I'd say. I seem to recall reading about the glass fiber voice coil former on another test report somewhere. I dislike finding conflicting information, hence my question directed to Scan Speak. It could very well be the slightly more expensive 10F 8424G00 has some differences there. It has a closed off area beneath the spider and is more of a mid range. The moving mass isn't the same between the two and there is the obvious difference in magnets and even in voice coil length.
About the voice coil in the 10F 8424G00:
So that's where that came from and why the 8424's price of admission is higher.
Voice Coil December 2013 said:
However, upon asking a representative of Scan Speak I get the following information:
Voice coil wire: CCAW, 15% copper
Connectionwire: Cu
Voice coil former: Glass fiber
A bit less exotic I'd say. I seem to recall reading about the glass fiber voice coil former on another test report somewhere. I dislike finding conflicting information, hence my question directed to Scan Speak. It could very well be the slightly more expensive 10F 8424G00 has some differences there. It has a closed off area beneath the spider and is more of a mid range. The moving mass isn't the same between the two and there is the obvious difference in magnets and even in voice coil length.
About the voice coil in the 10F 8424G00:
So that's where that came from and why the 8424's price of admission is higher.
Attachments
Last edited:
Been scouting the inter web,How about these options?
Wavecor
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/298-1020-1022--wavecor-fr090wa01-02-specifications.pdf
Lavoce
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/293-707--lavoce-fsn030.72-specifications.pdf
Tectonic
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/297-2157--tectonic-temb46c20n-4b-2-spec-sheet.pdf
The Lavoce might be interesting.
Wavecor
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/298-1020-1022--wavecor-fr090wa01-02-specifications.pdf
Lavoce
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/293-707--lavoce-fsn030.72-specifications.pdf
Tectonic
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/297-2157--tectonic-temb46c20n-4b-2-spec-sheet.pdf
The Lavoce might be interesting.
Lavoce; Bl of 5.3, that's impressive! But something doesn't add up....
A quoted x-max of 2.1 mm while the gap height is 4 mm and voice coil length 6.2 mm.
In comparison the numbers of the 10F:
A quoted x-max of 2.3 mm while the gap height is 4 mm and voice coil length 8.7 mm.
See how that works? The x-damage figure is quite small too on the Lavoce. 3.1 mm vs 7.5 mm. I do like a bit of wiggle room there!
That's a first to see a relatively normal sensitivity of a BMR. I'd wish it would be a little bigger...
The Wavecor is a bit too wild for my taste on the top end. If I'm really critical the Lavoce is too, one can fix certain things with DSP, but I'd love to see an IR first.
The 10F is without doubt the best measuring driver I have seen in this class. Second best has been the TG9 and third best the TC9. Sadly, that remains important to me.
I'm quite disappointed in the quality issue I've encountered with the TC9, but I haven't seen another that can beat it as far as measurable results go, aside from the 2 previously mentioned family members and the Visaton B80. Sadly, the B80 is a little larger and won't fit. It would compete with the 10F 8414G10 on price and performance.
Of to the garage to run a few more impedance measurements on my repaired left array. Hopefully it will be back indoors tomorrow.
I'll close it up without using butyl this time... it wouldn't surprise me if it stays in one piece after that just to spike me.
I'll use Neoprene while knowing butyl does a better job. But it's the butyl that makes it much harder to disassemble it.
I appreciate the help/support though! Believe me, I've looked long and hard.
A quoted x-max of 2.1 mm while the gap height is 4 mm and voice coil length 6.2 mm.
In comparison the numbers of the 10F:
A quoted x-max of 2.3 mm while the gap height is 4 mm and voice coil length 8.7 mm.
See how that works? The x-damage figure is quite small too on the Lavoce. 3.1 mm vs 7.5 mm. I do like a bit of wiggle room there!
That's a first to see a relatively normal sensitivity of a BMR. I'd wish it would be a little bigger...
The Wavecor is a bit too wild for my taste on the top end. If I'm really critical the Lavoce is too, one can fix certain things with DSP, but I'd love to see an IR first.
The 10F is without doubt the best measuring driver I have seen in this class. Second best has been the TG9 and third best the TC9. Sadly, that remains important to me.
I'm quite disappointed in the quality issue I've encountered with the TC9, but I haven't seen another that can beat it as far as measurable results go, aside from the 2 previously mentioned family members and the Visaton B80. Sadly, the B80 is a little larger and won't fit. It would compete with the 10F 8414G10 on price and performance.
Of to the garage to run a few more impedance measurements on my repaired left array. Hopefully it will be back indoors tomorrow.
I'll close it up without using butyl this time... it wouldn't surprise me if it stays in one piece after that just to spike me.
I'll use Neoprene while knowing butyl does a better job. But it's the butyl that makes it much harder to disassemble it.
I appreciate the help/support though! Believe me, I've looked long and hard.
Last edited:
Yep, I was able to get my hands on the B80, but sadly not on the 10F, so I couldn't compare.
There is a bigger Tectonic BMR, but lower efficiency, and a bit wilder FR.
About the Lavoce, since you have your dual subs, does it matter that there is only 2.1mm XMax?
You said that even with the TC9 alone, no subs, they barely move to output satisfying bass.
Letting the subs do the real low stuff, the 2.1mm on the Lavoce should be enough, when spread about the 25 drivers.
Sorry, I have no hands on experience with it. I was just trying to see what other options were available here.
There is a bigger Tectonic BMR, but lower efficiency, and a bit wilder FR.
About the Lavoce, since you have your dual subs, does it matter that there is only 2.1mm XMax?
You said that even with the TC9 alone, no subs, they barely move to output satisfying bass.
Letting the subs do the real low stuff, the 2.1mm on the Lavoce should be enough, when spread about the 25 drivers.
Sorry, I have no hands on experience with it. I was just trying to see what other options were available here.
Even if it "could do" the job, I would want it to be comfortable while doing it.
One of the key ingredients to get dynamics is head-room. Being able to play all nuances.
The Lavoce has a dangerously close x-mech. The Scan Speak or Peerless/Vifa counterparts do have the wiggle room not to run into trouble even at the higher peaks.
The TC9 can play louder than the 10F 8414, at least on paper. But it's only 2 dB in an area where I actually cut the power with EQ. The 10F 8424 is a tie with the TC9.
All of them have the x-max needed plus a large x-mech wiggle room I look for. All of that while showing exemplary measurements throughout the web.
Super clean IR on the 10F series, clean IR on the TG9/TC9. It will break my wallet, but it should be an improvement, however small.
One of the key ingredients to get dynamics is head-room. Being able to play all nuances.
The Lavoce has a dangerously close x-mech. The Scan Speak or Peerless/Vifa counterparts do have the wiggle room not to run into trouble even at the higher peaks.
The TC9 can play louder than the 10F 8414, at least on paper. But it's only 2 dB in an area where I actually cut the power with EQ. The 10F 8424 is a tie with the TC9.
All of them have the x-max needed plus a large x-mech wiggle room I look for. All of that while showing exemplary measurements throughout the web.
Super clean IR on the 10F series, clean IR on the TG9/TC9. It will break my wallet, but it should be an improvement, however small.
Last edited: