If I were to build another array, it would be like the Snell XA series, i.e., expanding array. Two 8” drivers on top and bottom, then maybe two or three 10f or similar followed by a waveguided tweeter. You would stay in the same overall array concept but get drivers designed for the frequency domains. Roll off the outer 10f drivers earlier.
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10F - TC9 (impedance is not aligned)
Looks like the 10F is about 2 dB more sensitive on average. And a bit more flat overall plus a nice rising upper end for array use. Maybe I should get one to see how difficult it is to cut them to size
.Am I seriously considering this? I don't know... maybe...
The 10F pretty much is the ultimate for this job, look at the flat rising response! Dreams....
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What evidence is there that the 10F won't suffer the same fate as the TC9? Scan Speak aren't standing behind the product beyond the 1 year warranty. I would have more faith in a pro oriented company like B&C, Faital, Sica if they had something that could work. Sica have a few 3.5" drivers that have nice cast baskets etc. but the response would need more EQ as it's not as linear.Am I seriously considering this? I don't know... maybe...
I appreciate the difficulty in array surgery to replace faulty drivers but 10 years out of a $10 driver seems like a reasonable return on investment.
Do you have to be the voice of reason?
In all honesty, you make a good point. Having handled the 10F 8424G00 made me appreciate it's build quality. Those serve as my ambience channels after all. But these are still discovery line products.
The thing I wonder about is if the same goes for drivers as it did for amplifiers. That the distortion profile is part of it's sound.
I've often said you've got to like the speaker you use in an array as you get it back on steroids... I don't think that's a bad deal with the 10F.
In all honesty, you make a good point. Having handled the 10F 8424G00 made me appreciate it's build quality. Those serve as my ambience channels after all. But these are still discovery line products.
The thing I wonder about is if the same goes for drivers as it did for amplifiers. That the distortion profile is part of it's sound.
I've often said you've got to like the speaker you use in an array as you get it back on steroids... I don't think that's a bad deal with the 10F.
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Just something I am cursed withDo you have to be the voice of reason?
I'm sure the 10F would work nicely but the cost is high and is even more work to cut the baskets, no doubt invalidating any warranty at all.
Replacing all the drivers with a new batch of TC9's would be my choice. Parts Express has an ETA of 8th of September which is not far away.
It seems to me like the glue has a corrosive effect on the solder joint causing it to fail at some point when there is enough of a shock to the driver like removing it from the cabinet. Unless the 10F is demonstrably better in this regard it seems likely to be no more reliable in the long term.
ROHS
Given the likely manufacture date of the original TC9s, the suggestion made above that ROHS/lead-free led to poor soldering quality is plausible. A lot of mistakes were made around the time with inappropriate soldering alloys used. Considering the materials involved and the context, the problem could be chemical/electro-chemical, fatigue or a due to a mixture of these.
It's likely that the same soldering process was used across a large number of units with similar coils and tinsel leads. A customer may have reported poor MTBF. We don't know if the process has been updated, or if the type of solder is even controlled. Tymphany data sheets don't provide clues (version updates etc.) that I can find.
I experienced poor QC (variable sensitivity) with a dozen TC7s. I can't be certain that this was due to manufacture, as the drivers were poorly packed when sent to me and some were obviously damaged. If I still had any of these I'd dissect one to examine the joints, but unfortunately I don't have them now as I decided they were useless.
OTOH, my experience with Peerless HDS mid-woofers is that they complied with their specifications.
It's a horrible situation, and a pity that it's happened.
Ken
Given the likely manufacture date of the original TC9s, the suggestion made above that ROHS/lead-free led to poor soldering quality is plausible. A lot of mistakes were made around the time with inappropriate soldering alloys used. Considering the materials involved and the context, the problem could be chemical/electro-chemical, fatigue or a due to a mixture of these.
It's likely that the same soldering process was used across a large number of units with similar coils and tinsel leads. A customer may have reported poor MTBF. We don't know if the process has been updated, or if the type of solder is even controlled. Tymphany data sheets don't provide clues (version updates etc.) that I can find.
I experienced poor QC (variable sensitivity) with a dozen TC7s. I can't be certain that this was due to manufacture, as the drivers were poorly packed when sent to me and some were obviously damaged. If I still had any of these I'd dissect one to examine the joints, but unfortunately I don't have them now as I decided they were useless.
OTOH, my experience with Peerless HDS mid-woofers is that they complied with their specifications.
It's a horrible situation, and a pity that it's happened.
Ken
I hear you on the glue, fluid. That is my hunch as well. Looking further into it, the paper cone of the TC9 probably attracts water itself when subjected to a moist environment.
"Hygroscopic in nature, paper is constantly changing to reach equilibrium with its environment. Like a sponge, it absorbs or loses moisture relative to the extremes of exposure and the surrounding atmosphere."
The glasfiber cone on the 10F would be less prone to that behavior. However if the glue isn't up to its job to protect what's underneath...
Indeed I think the lead free solder could also be part of the problem.
I agree with that, Ken!
"Hygroscopic in nature, paper is constantly changing to reach equilibrium with its environment. Like a sponge, it absorbs or loses moisture relative to the extremes of exposure and the surrounding atmosphere."
The glasfiber cone on the 10F would be less prone to that behavior. However if the glue isn't up to its job to protect what's underneath...
Indeed I think the lead free solder could also be part of the problem.
I agree with that, Ken!
The advantages of a stronger motor (higher BL):
T-S Parameters in the 21st Century - YouTube
TC9, Motor Force Factor BL: 2.91
10F, Motor Force Factor BL: 4.27
(Re is the same in both cases)
Higher BL makes the frequency response rise up to higher frequencies. Which can be seen in the comparison I posted and agrees with the Youtube presentation example. Correction is needed with EQ. No problem, that's what I do anyway.
The million dollar question, is it/would it be worth the extra cost?
Interesting non the less... it hints towards differences that do exist, can we hear it after EQ?
T-S Parameters in the 21st Century - YouTube
TC9, Motor Force Factor BL: 2.91
10F, Motor Force Factor BL: 4.27
(Re is the same in both cases)
Higher BL makes the frequency response rise up to higher frequencies. Which can be seen in the comparison I posted and agrees with the Youtube presentation example. Correction is needed with EQ. No problem, that's what I do anyway.
The million dollar question, is it/would it be worth the extra cost?
Interesting non the less... it hints towards differences that do exist, can we hear it after EQ?
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Its a pity SB doesn't make a 3.5" driver. I built arrays with their highly regarded 2.5" driver and they were fine. They make a 3" driver whose spec looks good but its footprint is 7mm smaller than TC9. You don't get as much bass with these smaller drivers, which shouldn't matter now that you have subs. I don't imagine that you would look forward to doing a new baffle.
I've already state my preference for a new batch of TC9s which should last until you are ready for a brand new project. Before I bought more, I would want to have an honest conversation with the manufacturer. I think you said you didn't get a response when you approached them on your own. Perhaps the president of Vandermill Audio would have better luck.
I've already state my preference for a new batch of TC9s which should last until you are ready for a brand new project. Before I bought more, I would want to have an honest conversation with the manufacturer. I think you said you didn't get a response when you approached them on your own. Perhaps the president of Vandermill Audio would have better luck.
I thought the Youtube clip on BL was interesting....
Basically, every firm that makes full range drivers is balancing the parameters to get to a result. What I liked in the video is that B&C actually increase BL to get a better woofer, while stating: FR can be "repaired" with EQ. But the woofer's operation is more stable due to having the higher BL. Subwoofers even show a flat topped BL, as do the more expensive mid-bass woofers from ScanSpeak.
If you look at the samples provided in the video, then look at the TC9 and 10F curves, it is almost a text book sample of what is the difference there. Stronger (neodymium) motor on the 10F, copper voice coil wire on titanium former(*) instead of the lighter copper-clad alu on the TC9.
(*)= According to Voicecoil Magazine
Do I believe the extra cost of the 10F did go into better materials? Yes I do. From the aluminium frame up until the titanium voice coil former. Do I believe it all has an effect on the resulting FR response? It clearly shows when one compares the results of these two drivers.
Am I sold? Not quite yet. But asking Scan Speak would be a lot easier than getting an answer from Tymphany. I think we're lucky the TC9 is still made at all. Clearly they are trying to move away from it, the TG series is gone except for very large orders. To me it seems that all that has been done on the TC series in the last years wasn't done to improve it. It's just a left-over from the Scan Speak / Peerless-Vifa days.
I like reading all suggestions, but I've spend so much time going over all options (back in 2009 till 2011) to come to my conclusion the TC9 was the driver for me....
Other interesting drivers I saw: FR88EX, 3FEXX, but they are a different size and I'm not willing to part with what I have.
I'm either replacing the TC9 with a new batch or upgrading it to the 10F.
Unless another driver exists that measures at least equally as good as the TC9 and has very similar size and at least 2+ mm x-max is out there from another
firm that I missed somehow.
Basically, every firm that makes full range drivers is balancing the parameters to get to a result. What I liked in the video is that B&C actually increase BL to get a better woofer, while stating: FR can be "repaired" with EQ. But the woofer's operation is more stable due to having the higher BL. Subwoofers even show a flat topped BL, as do the more expensive mid-bass woofers from ScanSpeak.
If you look at the samples provided in the video, then look at the TC9 and 10F curves, it is almost a text book sample of what is the difference there. Stronger (neodymium) motor on the 10F, copper voice coil wire on titanium former(*) instead of the lighter copper-clad alu on the TC9.
(*)= According to Voicecoil Magazine
Do I believe the extra cost of the 10F did go into better materials? Yes I do. From the aluminium frame up until the titanium voice coil former. Do I believe it all has an effect on the resulting FR response? It clearly shows when one compares the results of these two drivers.
Am I sold? Not quite yet. But asking Scan Speak would be a lot easier than getting an answer from Tymphany. I think we're lucky the TC9 is still made at all. Clearly they are trying to move away from it, the TG series is gone except for very large orders. To me it seems that all that has been done on the TC series in the last years wasn't done to improve it. It's just a left-over from the Scan Speak / Peerless-Vifa days.
I like reading all suggestions, but I've spend so much time going over all options (back in 2009 till 2011) to come to my conclusion the TC9 was the driver for me....
Other interesting drivers I saw: FR88EX, 3FEXX, but they are a different size and I'm not willing to part with what I have.
I'm either replacing the TC9 with a new batch or upgrading it to the 10F.
Unless another driver exists that measures at least equally as good as the TC9 and has very similar size and at least 2+ mm x-max is out there from another
firm that I missed somehow.
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So I got 2 SB10 drivers. This is in no way a dead serious measuremt session but here goes...
I sat the drivers on its magnet on a soft carpet. Mic was 1 m above. I calibrated the levels to within +/- 1 dB so its SPL in the graphs.
I also got my SS 12MU out as well as the smaller SB65... I measured both the SB10s.
I did not move the mic, output level or mic gain between the drivers - just hooked in the new one and pushed Measure...
Traces are in order: SB10 #2, SS 12MU, SB 65, SB10 #1 (hoover over the pictures...)
I do own 10f/ ... but cant find them now... I search on...
//
I sat the drivers on its magnet on a soft carpet. Mic was 1 m above. I calibrated the levels to within +/- 1 dB so its SPL in the graphs.
I also got my SS 12MU out as well as the smaller SB65... I measured both the SB10s.
I did not move the mic, output level or mic gain between the drivers - just hooked in the new one and pushed Measure...
Traces are in order: SB10 #2, SS 12MU, SB 65, SB10 #1 (hoover over the pictures...)
I do own 10f/ ... but cant find them now... I search on...
//
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Thanks for those, TNT. It isn't looking like a clean driver yet...
Sliced up another broken driver. I could scrape the wires of the voice coil clean and measure a 6.5 ohm resistance. The wire leads worked all the way up to their connection point beneath the glue. That leaves the unseen connection between lead wires and voice coil wires as the culprit. Unseen due to the blob of glue.
Sad, but it's another confirmation of what's going on here.
For Drengur a picture of where on the TC9 this takes place. You see both the lead wires sticking out, I could verify the connection tabs having zero resistance all the way up to those wires sticking out.
Next I hacked up the surround and spider to scratch the voice coil wires to see if something went wrong with the voice coil itself.
Here I could actually measure the voice coil resistance.
(yes, I hacked trough anything that was holding me back from measuring the coil. Not aiming at repair work, just making sure I've caught the source of the problem)
It confirms the use of copper clad aluminium voice coil wiring and aluminium former.
Sliced up another broken driver. I could scrape the wires of the voice coil clean and measure a 6.5 ohm resistance. The wire leads worked all the way up to their connection point beneath the glue. That leaves the unseen connection between lead wires and voice coil wires as the culprit. Unseen due to the blob of glue.
Sad, but it's another confirmation of what's going on here.
For Drengur a picture of where on the TC9 this takes place. You see both the lead wires sticking out, I could verify the connection tabs having zero resistance all the way up to those wires sticking out.
Next I hacked up the surround and spider to scratch the voice coil wires to see if something went wrong with the voice coil itself.
Here I could actually measure the voice coil resistance.
(yes, I hacked trough anything that was holding me back from measuring the coil. Not aiming at repair work, just making sure I've caught the source of the problem)
It confirms the use of copper clad aluminium voice coil wiring and aluminium former.
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plucked out my SB10 as well, in a small 1.2 litre foam core little sealed box.
The 4kHz distortion is still there indeed.
Here it is, along the impulse.
I really had high expectations for this driver. I wanted it to be amazing.
The 4kHz distortion is still there indeed.
Here it is, along the impulse.
I really had high expectations for this driver. I wanted it to be amazing.
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I received confirmation from Scan Speak that they were aware of the problem of the glue that was used on some of their older models (leading to corrosion problems) and they have rectified that problem by changing the glue that was used. No reports on this happening to a 10F model ever.
I don't think it will be easy to get a representative of Tymphany to address this problem. I have a few questions out there to Tymphany itself and the European importer, as I would prefer to see a written answer.
Let me state that I don't expect I would have seen a failure if I hadn't parked my arrays for what turned out to be almost a whole year in my garage. I can imagine that is will change the view of many more people what they think of this little driver. There is a chance the problem has been dealt with in more recent years. My drivers are relatively old, close to the parting date of 2008 between Scan Speak and Vifa/Peerless. I'm hoping to get an answer on that too, if I do I will mention it on this thread.
I don't think it will be easy to get a representative of Tymphany to address this problem. I have a few questions out there to Tymphany itself and the European importer, as I would prefer to see a written answer.
Let me state that I don't expect I would have seen a failure if I hadn't parked my arrays for what turned out to be almost a whole year in my garage. I can imagine that is will change the view of many more people what they think of this little driver. There is a chance the problem has been dealt with in more recent years. My drivers are relatively old, close to the parting date of 2008 between Scan Speak and Vifa/Peerless. I'm hoping to get an answer on that too, if I do I will mention it on this thread.
hey it reminds me of an old adage i heard years ago in my touring days as a soundman....never leave your gear where you yourself would not sleep for 8 hours...i think back to insisting on truck box heaters so my PA wouldn't freeze or develop condensation problems and am thankful i insisted on it....many a tour manager hated me for it.