Definitely a strange choice of a 15inch driver which is really a midbass and not a bass unit, thus the unusual low sensitivity for such a size:
from his description (under the FR graph posted there):
in intro he also says the choice was cost driven? so the more kits can sell.
I think with these designs he is getting out of his comfort zone. He never cared enough to take more off axis measurements which are the most important deliverable with horn designs targeting certain directivity. Where does it show that the 8PR210 and the horn cross to each other at the same dispersion angle?
He did a lot of pretty good work across a large number of conventional designs before; but with these latest ones with pro drivers I almost feel he is trying to move a driver that is over stocked or has a better profit margin, or just makes his Xover design job simpler.
from his description (under the FR graph posted there):
in intro he also says the choice was cost driven? so the more kits can sell.
I think with these designs he is getting out of his comfort zone. He never cared enough to take more off axis measurements which are the most important deliverable with horn designs targeting certain directivity. Where does it show that the 8PR210 and the horn cross to each other at the same dispersion angle?
He did a lot of pretty good work across a large number of conventional designs before; but with these latest ones with pro drivers I almost feel he is trying to move a driver that is over stocked or has a better profit margin, or just makes his Xover design job simpler.
Having messed around with both, I can say they sound different. Prosound drivers have very high efficiency and sound extremely dynamic. Playing certain music at home might be a bit overly dynamic, including waking up your neighbour in the middle if the night. Hifi drivers are a bit tamer.
Something else to think about, good prosound drivers can be quite expensive, even more expensive than hifi units.
Oon
The 15W700 is an excellent driver. That it's currently inexpensive is just a happy fact.
HOWEVER, it is a midbass driver and it's got high volume requirements - which Troel's isn't providing with this design. Additionally, it is excursion limited (..though give the force curve of most eff. drivers, it probably only has 1-2mm's less excursion following a good force and suspension curve than good efficient bass drivers; most midbass and bass drivers (6-9mm of xmax) of this sort tend to have a drooping force curve just beyond 3mm's regardless of their stated xmax).
Given the volume he has provided and with regard to usable excursion and eq.. - it's going to be high spl-limited: compression will start in the '90's (..and likely the low '90's with enough eq. at low freq.s.)
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Limited by the mids he used. It is 16 ohms and only 92db if I remember correctly.
Pro bass drivers typically have very poor bass response due to their efficient motor. And this particular one is down to 80db at 40Hz. Part of the factor is the impedance becoming 90 ohm at resonance. Using bass reflex can reduce that effect. But a bass boost is still necessary if you want to go that low.... If you had tried tuning speaker in a software simulator you realised trying to get an extra 3dbin bass you probably have to double the volume of the box. With a dsp, it is just a matter of programming it in. With a 15" and xmax this guy is capable of, it us pretty much running 4 X 8" woofer in bass handling.
I think the philosophy he had when this is designed is to go for the finesse of a tube amp or class A powered for the mids and highs and Class D grunt for the bass giving the best of both worlds.
Oon
Yeah, that's a whopper of missing design element for this sort of speaker.
The 8PR210 is a very nice driver, but I wouldn't have selected it for this sort of design: break-up is fairly low. This is more of a lower midrange driver for a large horn.
I was thrilled to see this construction, until I read down where the 15in woofer is powered by a plate amp. People building these high sensitivity speakers are mostly SET or PP tube guys, plate amp/DSP is OK, but there should’ve been a fully passive version too to fill the gap between the Fusion and the 18in Loudspeaker. Finally a great looking speaker, but don’t need another plate amp design.
Nope. The mid is 94 dB/1m/1W, and there is also an 8 Ohm version that is even louder. I don't see the rationale to reduce the sensitivity to 90 dB/1m @ 1W or 2.83Vrms. Too bad for an otherwise interesting design.
@ mbrennwa: Faitalpro specifications are rather optimistic.
When simulating the 8PR210-16 it turns out to be a little over 92 dB.
This complies with the experience I have with other Faitalpro drivers.
Nevertheless: a 92 dB midrange driver should be enough for a 94 dB sensitive three-way system.
When simulating the 8PR210-16 it turns out to be a little over 92 dB.
This complies with the experience I have with other Faitalpro drivers.
Nevertheless: a 92 dB midrange driver should be enough for a 94 dB sensitive three-way system.
So?
Does not sound too complicated either with a passive network or an external digital xo of you choice + power amp.troels said:
Nice too see the faction complaining about his "boutique" parts x-o's finally is getting challenged by a new contender btw, picking on the thorough use of plate amps! 😛
Next step will be synthesis then: "Why is he always producing hybrids? He should go either way, but one."
Any comments how this design would compare to this design?(Faital-3WC-15). Pros/cons? I have a pair of the faital pro 15pr400 and looking for a project to make use of them. The passive 3wc-15 seems attractive lately. I initially was tempted towards the TL-1/2 design, but unable to commit the $ any longer.
regarding TL3
Let me try to explain what I see as what Troels is all about. He wants to make DIY high end, high fidelity speakers. With his expertise of over 20 years of building literally hundreds of speakers, and by many considered among the world’s top crossover designers. He tries to reproduce sound realistically, e.g. an oboe sounds like an oboe, high musicality, long term listenability. Then as size and budget allows good PRAT and always high emotional transfer for a small investment and your time, and no mayor defficiencies in any other areas. Some want more exciting speakers or a specific sound, or efficiency, or look, or some specific driver or feature, so not always everyone’s cup of tea and not easily being able to listen to them makes things more tricky. He is less ZU and more Focal without the ******* company and price😉 He does things for most budgets and also has some open, any component crossover designs.
He has been doing a lot of extremely high-end, very expensive client horn setups for probably more than a decade now and took that experience and tried to translate that into The Loudspeaker series using high quality PA drivers and several thousand € instead several tens of thousands. I have heard a few of his DIY speakers (e.g. DTQWT, TQWT, SBA10, 3WC, a transmission line and TL ) and the usual limiting factor is the room, quality of the front end/amps and placement. There are a lot of DIY speakers that sound good, measure good, and function well. What sets the Troels speakers apart is his experience, his ear and brutal standards, and that they are meant not to sound like anything, to disappear (why he suggests grills, which I understand but still hate due to experience with normal speakers😉) and make you believe you are just connected with the music and be able to listen all day long. That is tricky. Most DIY designs give you a good return on investment and sound and measure well, but to get that last bit of something the subjective so called “magic”, or “high end sound” is usually lacking unless they use extremely good components and throw size restrictions and WAF out the window. Most DIY lack really good front ends and amplification and so this is often not really critical and you cannot argue with taste or what makes you happy. Most DIY the path is happiness😉 For most of the Troels top of the page designs the diy speaker will almost never be the limiting factor in the chain, and very, very few diy constructions can demonstrate that IMO. (Of course taking room and a good budget into account)
What DIY gives you is experience and developing an EAR for changes and I heard some DIY that in their umpteenth iteration sounded really, really fabulous in their room (and beat top commercial systems in those rooms) and am sure there are other designs that might do what he does with less money, maybe you can get the right combination of caps and crossover just right. But you need to be really, really super lucky, or have a ton of experience and really good instincts, ear, feedback from critical people, etc. Here in Europe TL is IMO among the best say sub €10K commercial DIY speaker I have heard, but I like big speakers with high efficiency, midrang, transparancy and good bass for good tubes or top SS, e.g pass labs, ayre, gryphon, etc.
Regarding the TL3: Troels was badgered to do a smaller, cheaper TL which he resisted for a looong time, remember TL is THE Louldspeaker for him. He is rigid with his standards and builds what he likes. Then came the slimmer TL2, but he was still hounded to make something that gave you something similar to TL that most could afford, live with and move as their end of life speaker, and could also build!!!. Likely inspired by the ELECTRO VOICE GEORGIAN I assume. This started as a compromise speaker, but it seems that by trying to compromise he actually made something special, truly worthy of the TL status. He describes his reasoning on the website. This is a 3-4K€ build which is about half of the TL, including plate amplification. If you want fully passive and have superb 200-500W @8ohms of class A, you should have the budget for TL1 Or TL2. For those of us with non-perfect rooms that might want a bit of equalization in the bass and lots of power there this seems like a great design IMO. If you look at the difference in price from a Pass Lab XA25 to a XA200.8, or xs300, very few DIY will have the later options. Yes the cost is efficiency 3db, but without having to run the bass section with one amp those 3db should be mostly " recovered". It still remains a compromise, of size, cost, ease of building and need for amplification that seems interesting to a lot of people. No speaker will ever be exactly what everyone wants Period.
I am not a Troels fanboy, I just do not understand this critique. I was also hoping for a lower price of his kit, but probably ca. 200€ of mark up for the design and then some assistance is really a steal, IMO. Looking at the hours and money he invested to learn, measure, compare, build, networking, listening, travel/shows, make a name for himself / establishing himself he can recoup some of those costs in my book. He has super high standards and is a true professional and I am sure if he continued in biology as a consultant he would have made way, way more money, but many fewer diyers would be happy. There are also open use any crossover component designs, e.g. the 761, but I appreciate that someone will not release something that others can make money/rip off of, by copying, or can mess up by using caps and components that do not harmonize and then complain of not sounding good thus giving you a bad name. One has a reputation to upkeep (I admit I am biased of so far not really liking any digital crossovers for MT sections, not even the Kii). Maybe some can do it better for less, but for most, if they want a “this is the last speaker I build that will compete with almost any commercial speakers” and high chance of success, unless my wife kills me😉 Thus I can spend my money on best front end and say the best 30-60 watts I can afford I don’t understand the critique. It’s not for everyone but I am very intrigued I have to say.
Disclaimer I respect everyone’s opinion and tastes, experiences and budgets differ but I wanted to give a bit of context to Troels “why”, as I see it 😉 Also have spoken to him just 3 times personally but know quite a few people from private persons to industry professionals who have dealt with him.
Cheers Everyone
Let me try to explain what I see as what Troels is all about. He wants to make DIY high end, high fidelity speakers. With his expertise of over 20 years of building literally hundreds of speakers, and by many considered among the world’s top crossover designers. He tries to reproduce sound realistically, e.g. an oboe sounds like an oboe, high musicality, long term listenability. Then as size and budget allows good PRAT and always high emotional transfer for a small investment and your time, and no mayor defficiencies in any other areas. Some want more exciting speakers or a specific sound, or efficiency, or look, or some specific driver or feature, so not always everyone’s cup of tea and not easily being able to listen to them makes things more tricky. He is less ZU and more Focal without the ******* company and price😉 He does things for most budgets and also has some open, any component crossover designs.
He has been doing a lot of extremely high-end, very expensive client horn setups for probably more than a decade now and took that experience and tried to translate that into The Loudspeaker series using high quality PA drivers and several thousand € instead several tens of thousands. I have heard a few of his DIY speakers (e.g. DTQWT, TQWT, SBA10, 3WC, a transmission line and TL ) and the usual limiting factor is the room, quality of the front end/amps and placement. There are a lot of DIY speakers that sound good, measure good, and function well. What sets the Troels speakers apart is his experience, his ear and brutal standards, and that they are meant not to sound like anything, to disappear (why he suggests grills, which I understand but still hate due to experience with normal speakers😉) and make you believe you are just connected with the music and be able to listen all day long. That is tricky. Most DIY designs give you a good return on investment and sound and measure well, but to get that last bit of something the subjective so called “magic”, or “high end sound” is usually lacking unless they use extremely good components and throw size restrictions and WAF out the window. Most DIY lack really good front ends and amplification and so this is often not really critical and you cannot argue with taste or what makes you happy. Most DIY the path is happiness😉 For most of the Troels top of the page designs the diy speaker will almost never be the limiting factor in the chain, and very, very few diy constructions can demonstrate that IMO. (Of course taking room and a good budget into account)
What DIY gives you is experience and developing an EAR for changes and I heard some DIY that in their umpteenth iteration sounded really, really fabulous in their room (and beat top commercial systems in those rooms) and am sure there are other designs that might do what he does with less money, maybe you can get the right combination of caps and crossover just right. But you need to be really, really super lucky, or have a ton of experience and really good instincts, ear, feedback from critical people, etc. Here in Europe TL is IMO among the best say sub €10K commercial DIY speaker I have heard, but I like big speakers with high efficiency, midrang, transparancy and good bass for good tubes or top SS, e.g pass labs, ayre, gryphon, etc.
Regarding the TL3: Troels was badgered to do a smaller, cheaper TL which he resisted for a looong time, remember TL is THE Louldspeaker for him. He is rigid with his standards and builds what he likes. Then came the slimmer TL2, but he was still hounded to make something that gave you something similar to TL that most could afford, live with and move as their end of life speaker, and could also build!!!. Likely inspired by the ELECTRO VOICE GEORGIAN I assume. This started as a compromise speaker, but it seems that by trying to compromise he actually made something special, truly worthy of the TL status. He describes his reasoning on the website. This is a 3-4K€ build which is about half of the TL, including plate amplification. If you want fully passive and have superb 200-500W @8ohms of class A, you should have the budget for TL1 Or TL2. For those of us with non-perfect rooms that might want a bit of equalization in the bass and lots of power there this seems like a great design IMO. If you look at the difference in price from a Pass Lab XA25 to a XA200.8, or xs300, very few DIY will have the later options. Yes the cost is efficiency 3db, but without having to run the bass section with one amp those 3db should be mostly " recovered". It still remains a compromise, of size, cost, ease of building and need for amplification that seems interesting to a lot of people. No speaker will ever be exactly what everyone wants Period.
I am not a Troels fanboy, I just do not understand this critique. I was also hoping for a lower price of his kit, but probably ca. 200€ of mark up for the design and then some assistance is really a steal, IMO. Looking at the hours and money he invested to learn, measure, compare, build, networking, listening, travel/shows, make a name for himself / establishing himself he can recoup some of those costs in my book. He has super high standards and is a true professional and I am sure if he continued in biology as a consultant he would have made way, way more money, but many fewer diyers would be happy. There are also open use any crossover component designs, e.g. the 761, but I appreciate that someone will not release something that others can make money/rip off of, by copying, or can mess up by using caps and components that do not harmonize and then complain of not sounding good thus giving you a bad name. One has a reputation to upkeep (I admit I am biased of so far not really liking any digital crossovers for MT sections, not even the Kii). Maybe some can do it better for less, but for most, if they want a “this is the last speaker I build that will compete with almost any commercial speakers” and high chance of success, unless my wife kills me😉 Thus I can spend my money on best front end and say the best 30-60 watts I can afford I don’t understand the critique. It’s not for everyone but I am very intrigued I have to say.
Disclaimer I respect everyone’s opinion and tastes, experiences and budgets differ but I wanted to give a bit of context to Troels “why”, as I see it 😉 Also have spoken to him just 3 times personally but know quite a few people from private persons to industry professionals who have dealt with him.
Cheers Everyone
The Faital-3WC-15 conceptually makes a lot more sense to me than The Loudspeaker III. It's a straight-forward design that uses all-passive filters and sensitivity is still decent. The measurements show about 93 dB/2.8V/1m, and Troels specifies it as 95-96 dB/2.8V/1m (a bit too optimistic, if you ask me). It's impossible to say which speaker is "better", but if you are looking for an efficient speaker and your amp can handle the 4 Ohm impedance, the Faital-3WC-15 might be a good choice.
Personally, I can't fit such large speakers in my living space. That's why I'd prefer the Faital-3WC over the Faital-3WC-15. However, I have the Open Source Monkeys, so...
Personally, I can't fit such large speakers in my living space. That's why I'd prefer the Faital-3WC over the Faital-3WC-15. However, I have the Open Source Monkeys, so...
You sound like one, and most of the critiques have been technical, valid and fair.
There are also designs given freely here and in other places that are of equivalent worth and many here have the experience and expertise to make valid analyses of his designs.
To the list I'd add the horn tilt. When forced to consider tilting a horn, the wavefront integration compromise is more compelling when the tilt is away from the mid. Wanting the horn to be facing the listener and time aligned above all else is not a contemporary way of thinking.
re: the above post praising TG.
Having a lot of experience, the best intention and a golden ear may be fine for some. For me it still does not explain why no measurements were taken every 10degrees off axis when designing a speaker with a horn integrating with a cone driver where certain directivity requirements needed to be met.\
Having a lot of experience, the best intention and a golden ear may be fine for some. For me it still does not explain why no measurements were taken every 10degrees off axis when designing a speaker with a horn integrating with a cone driver where certain directivity requirements needed to be met.\
Only in one case do I think you’re not a T. G. fanboy that is if you’re Troels himself. 🙂
Sorry for assuming, but the resemblance is spooky. Starting with your name continued to that wall of text.
Anyway, as I see Troels work, he always makes weird decisions in his plans, maybe in order to stand out from the crowd with something or technically he really sees it as good, you can’t know.
TL III is no different in this view imo and most of the arguments have already been made here.
It is perfectly undestandable what TG is doing. He has done quite a few favors to DIY community and in exchange gained some customers. The fact that not everyone will completely approve his design philosophy and choices, is irrelevant. Important is that we stay friends while having some DIY fun.
I agree with the sentiment but people with a more "subjective" interest in the hobby are more likely to hold him in a high regard compared to people with a more technical interest. Nothing wrong with that of course but it does mean there will inevitably be disagreement over the value of some of his designs particularly the ones including very expensive parts. Those with a "subjective" interest are unlikely to have the technical knowledge to wholly follow or accept some of the technical criticisms which they may then consider unfair or unfounded given they way they look at things.
If you don't understand it, it cannot be right. That's an awkward way of thinking!
What that Gravesen guy offers is 80ies retro stuff. Lowish efficiency, small speakers that are built to look just like every run of the mill hifi speaker that is mainly designed to look a certain part with correction networks all over the place.
If one feels the need to correct everything DSP just makes so much more sense that it's hard to take these designs seriously.
Looking at that specific speaker discussed it's just a poor choice of drivers cobbled together with a mindset circling around 8" midwoofers and dome tweeters.
*that came out harsher than expected and illuminates my biases*
If one feels the need to correct everything DSP just makes so much more sense that it's hard to take these designs seriously.
Looking at that specific speaker discussed it's just a poor choice of drivers cobbled together with a mindset circling around 8" midwoofers and dome tweeters.
*that came out harsher than expected and illuminates my biases*
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