What about sand? I recall a Speaker Builder (or maybe the pre-SB days in Audio Amateur) article on speakers with each wall/top/bottom being dual panels with sand put in between. Would this sort of thing be helpful in a turntable?
But isn't that what veneers are for, to cover up all the ugly-looking crap that does the Real Work, and make things look nice?
Which brings up yet another (only partly tongue-in-cheek) question: How badly does veneer mess with the sound?
Surely its far better to correctly design a turntable with a low noise motor drive system then it is to try and damp noise within the chassis? Its a relatively trivial task to keep the motor and platter in a geometrically stable relationship while inhibiting the passage of noise across a specific frequency band.
It's certainly better to avoid bumps and scrapes in the first place than rely on subsequent application of an Elastoplast 🙂.
I have experience to work with Panzerholz.
I think i was even the first one to use it in a High End Audio content.
The Audiophysic Medea from 1991 had a cabinet from Panzerholz.
For such a big object it was hard to work with. Sometimes the cabinets cracked open after a while.
We later solved that problem by buying only very flat raw material.
It is certainly a material that can be used in turntables.
I think i was even the first one to use it in a High End Audio content.
The Audiophysic Medea from 1991 had a cabinet from Panzerholz.
For such a big object it was hard to work with. Sometimes the cabinets cracked open after a while.
We later solved that problem by buying only very flat raw material.
It is certainly a material that can be used in turntables.
Agreed!🙂
The purpose of this topic was to share thoughts on Joachim's concept and to bring relevant experience to bear. sq225917 and YNWOAN have made very valuable contributions but, naturally enough, the thread eventually wandered off topic - and for that I am as responsible as anyone else 😱!! [However, few of us have true state of art TTs, and the 'elastoplast' method of improvement is forever of interest.]
JG was interested in the advantages and problems posed by differing motor types and also in magnetic platter levitation. My first interest is the budget which will be needed to build a top level turntable allowing for machining by a small engineering company. I would like to see a 'provisional cost estimate' of the main elements. To produce such an estimate will require a more advanced design concept than has been posted to date. So if we stay with advancing the matter we may be able to help bring this thread to point of successful production of a pretty good TT, suitable to drive a Paradise stage. It would be great for the DIY community at large to be able to have a complete DIYaudio system!😉
A parallel thread on arm design would be welcome.
That said, I do think that a new thread on plinth design for classic TTs would be very worthwhile. Any volunteers??🙂
The purpose of this topic was to share thoughts on Joachim's concept and to bring relevant experience to bear. sq225917 and YNWOAN have made very valuable contributions but, naturally enough, the thread eventually wandered off topic - and for that I am as responsible as anyone else 😱!! [However, few of us have true state of art TTs, and the 'elastoplast' method of improvement is forever of interest.]
JG was interested in the advantages and problems posed by differing motor types and also in magnetic platter levitation. My first interest is the budget which will be needed to build a top level turntable allowing for machining by a small engineering company. I would like to see a 'provisional cost estimate' of the main elements. To produce such an estimate will require a more advanced design concept than has been posted to date. So if we stay with advancing the matter we may be able to help bring this thread to point of successful production of a pretty good TT, suitable to drive a Paradise stage. It would be great for the DIY community at large to be able to have a complete DIYaudio system!😉
A parallel thread on arm design would be welcome.
That said, I do think that a new thread on plinth design for classic TTs would be very worthwhile. Any volunteers??🙂
This probably isn't going to sound very helpful and I apologise for that, but I really don't think that plinth design (or design of any individual element) can/should be considered in isolation.
I would also strongly recommend that you model and trial potential ideas before committing to any decisions. It is common to find that the motivation for people to build their own turntable is to acquire something they could not otherwise afford. As such, they often build a copy, or pastiche, of an existing design/s. However, in my own case performance was my goal and reaching my current point has not really saved me any money as such - such is the nature of building prototypes that are subsequently modified or never pursued further.
For example, the magnetic bearing I now use is the result of five or six prototypes (all of which technically worked) and some of those prototypes allowed 'on the go' modification.
I would also strongly recommend that you model and trial potential ideas before committing to any decisions. It is common to find that the motivation for people to build their own turntable is to acquire something they could not otherwise afford. As such, they often build a copy, or pastiche, of an existing design/s. However, in my own case performance was my goal and reaching my current point has not really saved me any money as such - such is the nature of building prototypes that are subsequently modified or never pursued further.
For example, the magnetic bearing I now use is the result of five or six prototypes (all of which technically worked) and some of those prototypes allowed 'on the go' modification.
a new thread on plinth design would be a good Idea, Brianco, so maybe the mods can oblige.
I'll kick off by saying that the role of the plinth is often confusing, and choice of materials and design have more to do with aesthetics and finger in the air ideas than sound engineering practices.
The primary role of the plinth, other than that of just supporting the deck, is of vibration control. If there are no vibrations coming from the turntable mechanisms to deal with, then there are still the vibrations from seismic sources and aerial intrusions to deal with. Simply moving the turntable away from the side of a loudspeaker will improve the quality of reproduction, as will mounting the turntable on a resilient material, whilst ensuring all is level and motionless.
If living in the real world of less than perfect turntables we encounter these vibrations, we can mitigate against them by ensuring the materials we choose to make the support/plinth are appropriate to the task in hand. This really means choosing materials which can cope with (damp) the vibrations to such an extent that they pose little problems. Unfortunately, most turntable support/plinths are not fabricated from appropriate materials, that is, those that have the required amount of stiffness, mass and damping. Those materials which are not suitable include most natural woods, most particle boards, most plastics, all metals and all ceramics. When I say all, I mean all commonly available materials.
This leaves a few plastics and composite materials, such as resinated woods and sandwich composites. Can damping material be added to otherwise poor materials, well, yes and no, there is something to be gained by adding damping compounds, but a lot damping material has to be added before significant improvements can be appreciated. And those damping materials are a special group, it is not possible to bond on just any damping material and expect good results.
Good materials, those with high intrinsic damping, include resinated bamboo and plywood, Jarrah wood, various Nylons, resin/mineral filler mixes and a range of sandwich composites. In the last instance, combining materials which are poor choices individually can result in good materials when formed into several layers, usually 3 or 5. Note, this does not include the glulams (mistakenly called cld by most people) as the layers have to have certain properties which the glulams (glued-laminates) do not have.
I hope I have given a flavour of at least what to consider, and suitable materials to use, any lingering questions may be answered here, or on this forum> http://audioqualia.prophpbb.com/http://
I'll kick off by saying that the role of the plinth is often confusing, and choice of materials and design have more to do with aesthetics and finger in the air ideas than sound engineering practices.
The primary role of the plinth, other than that of just supporting the deck, is of vibration control. If there are no vibrations coming from the turntable mechanisms to deal with, then there are still the vibrations from seismic sources and aerial intrusions to deal with. Simply moving the turntable away from the side of a loudspeaker will improve the quality of reproduction, as will mounting the turntable on a resilient material, whilst ensuring all is level and motionless.
If living in the real world of less than perfect turntables we encounter these vibrations, we can mitigate against them by ensuring the materials we choose to make the support/plinth are appropriate to the task in hand. This really means choosing materials which can cope with (damp) the vibrations to such an extent that they pose little problems. Unfortunately, most turntable support/plinths are not fabricated from appropriate materials, that is, those that have the required amount of stiffness, mass and damping. Those materials which are not suitable include most natural woods, most particle boards, most plastics, all metals and all ceramics. When I say all, I mean all commonly available materials.
This leaves a few plastics and composite materials, such as resinated woods and sandwich composites. Can damping material be added to otherwise poor materials, well, yes and no, there is something to be gained by adding damping compounds, but a lot damping material has to be added before significant improvements can be appreciated. And those damping materials are a special group, it is not possible to bond on just any damping material and expect good results.
Good materials, those with high intrinsic damping, include resinated bamboo and plywood, Jarrah wood, various Nylons, resin/mineral filler mixes and a range of sandwich composites. In the last instance, combining materials which are poor choices individually can result in good materials when formed into several layers, usually 3 or 5. Note, this does not include the glulams (mistakenly called cld by most people) as the layers have to have certain properties which the glulams (glued-laminates) do not have.
I hope I have given a flavour of at least what to consider, and suitable materials to use, any lingering questions may be answered here, or on this forum> http://audioqualia.prophpbb.com/http://
Cat squirrel how many decks have you built based on your musings, your web site seems a little sparse with regard to actual application. Any pics to share?
Yeh utterly. Motor breakthrough on my deck is at the level of bearing noise. It makes no difference to a record on a static platter, with belt removed, if the motor is running or not.
My motor sits in a 2kg brass pod, has a 15cm diameter foot plate and is connected to the plinth with a 3mm layer of Sorbothane sheet with the duromoter rating and thickness chosen to eliminate the possibility of the motor rocking while still isolating it at low audio frequencies (20hz up to the motor speed itself).
While the three rubber dot feet that the Kuzma comes with keep motor noise out of the plinth they also allow rocking due to the interaction of small footprint and belt tension.
I'd consider the solution trivial, it's engineering, technology and cost light.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
a good number, and more in the pipeline. Many by others, too.
I feel an ad hominem argument coming on.
The only thing you want movement from is the stylus and nothing else. Now while its more complicated than that, considering that to get there requires other " attached materials" in consideration, the first thing you want connected is a material that provides support and at the same time, not so soft to bend under weight, and if stimulated, can absorb and quitely scub off any vibration that might get back to the stylus with at least a decent delay that gets absorbed as much as possible with out a recognizable signature.
All this talk about materials that are high Q and available in quantity get more traction because of their universal availability and thats the problem right there!
We need materials that are non invasive and dumb to outside indifference.
The substance I use is still solid acrylic 3/4" or more and it gets quite expensive and little attention from Mfgrs because of it.
The sandwich approach is the best compromise of dead influence and should be your last decision if unsure.
Regards
David
All this talk about materials that are high Q and available in quantity get more traction because of their universal availability and thats the problem right there!
We need materials that are non invasive and dumb to outside indifference.
The substance I use is still solid acrylic 3/4" or more and it gets quite expensive and little attention from Mfgrs because of it.
The sandwich approach is the best compromise of dead influence and should be your last decision if unsure.
Regards
David
Use a direct drive turntable in a one to one arrangement.
Well that is actually not pretty but...
Audio-Technica - Produkte - Andere Produkte - Plattenspieler, Systeme, Nadeln - AT-LP120-USBC
Well that is actually not pretty but...
Audio-Technica - Produkte - Andere Produkte - Plattenspieler, Systeme, Nadeln - AT-LP120-USBC
That Technics 1200 clone is quite good indeed... a pity it has a plastic plinth... price is VERY attractive.
I know that these motors, fed with a good psu, can perform very well indeed.
I know that these motors, fed with a good psu, can perform very well indeed.
My idea is to use the complete table and drive the "real" table via a string, belt, tape or whatever. So it is two tables side by side.
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