They'll still be sitting on the shelf.....
Good luck and enjoy your build!
Good luck and enjoy your build!
Didn't want to make a dedicated post for this, so I am curious on everyone's thoughts/opinions on this:
How much power do I need!
Now, I do realize the Elsiniore's are extremely efficient and could almost run off a mobile amplifier, but I also have some thoughts on that.
At the sake of over simplifying, if the speakers are 90db sensitivity they produce this at 1 watt, 93 at 2watts, 96 at 4 and so on.
So. They produce this at a certain distance and as you go back in space it drops based on some math. I will actually be very close to this speakers so I am not going to need to worry about this for now. Later, sure.
The other thing to consider is dynamic head room. I listen to many genres one of which is loud bassey EDM. This can tend to be very peaky, and needs dynamic headroom. My current speakers at home are 89db send and I listen about 10ft away so I have an idea how much power I push to those, and I have a 200w/channel amp which probably doesn't get close to maxing out.
Anyway, lets say I am listening "to loud" and we are at 8 watts and 99db (no more hearing for me!). we'd need around 3 octaves of head room so 16, 32,64 watts. (every time I do this I laugh at how little power speakers really need)
Anyway this just means most class A stuff is more than enough and A/B monoblocks can be overkill.
Despite all that, I am considering getting the https://www.schiit.com/products/vidar2 which can do 100w per channel stereo. Given the above where I have 200, I am not sure if this is enough. I really am considering going monoblock in which I can do 400w into 8ohms (I think the elsinores are 6ohm load at the amp so even more)
Too much power? Probably!
Risk of breaking speakers with that much? Well, the rated power handling of the speaker of a whole is somewhere above 300watts and you'll probably over drive the woofers before that, so it's probably safe. I also don't listen to music that loud. (and the peak power handling is even higher)
Why do this? I like doing things that are overkill, and the only negative is I won't actually use all of this.
So... Thank you for reading my train of thought on the matter. Curious what you all would do. Mono block it? just run stereo? Start with one then add more if I feel I need it?
P.S. I can't realistically use Class A. my room gets to 80 during the summer as is, don't need another space heater haha.
How much power do I need!
Now, I do realize the Elsiniore's are extremely efficient and could almost run off a mobile amplifier, but I also have some thoughts on that.
At the sake of over simplifying, if the speakers are 90db sensitivity they produce this at 1 watt, 93 at 2watts, 96 at 4 and so on.
So. They produce this at a certain distance and as you go back in space it drops based on some math. I will actually be very close to this speakers so I am not going to need to worry about this for now. Later, sure.
The other thing to consider is dynamic head room. I listen to many genres one of which is loud bassey EDM. This can tend to be very peaky, and needs dynamic headroom. My current speakers at home are 89db send and I listen about 10ft away so I have an idea how much power I push to those, and I have a 200w/channel amp which probably doesn't get close to maxing out.
Anyway, lets say I am listening "to loud" and we are at 8 watts and 99db (no more hearing for me!). we'd need around 3 octaves of head room so 16, 32,64 watts. (every time I do this I laugh at how little power speakers really need)
Anyway this just means most class A stuff is more than enough and A/B monoblocks can be overkill.
Despite all that, I am considering getting the https://www.schiit.com/products/vidar2 which can do 100w per channel stereo. Given the above where I have 200, I am not sure if this is enough. I really am considering going monoblock in which I can do 400w into 8ohms (I think the elsinores are 6ohm load at the amp so even more)
Too much power? Probably!
Risk of breaking speakers with that much? Well, the rated power handling of the speaker of a whole is somewhere above 300watts and you'll probably over drive the woofers before that, so it's probably safe. I also don't listen to music that loud. (and the peak power handling is even higher)
Why do this? I like doing things that are overkill, and the only negative is I won't actually use all of this.
So... Thank you for reading my train of thought on the matter. Curious what you all would do. Mono block it? just run stereo? Start with one then add more if I feel I need it?
P.S. I can't realistically use Class A. my room gets to 80 during the summer as is, don't need another space heater haha.
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With efficient speakers, your ears tend to break before the drivers do. Don't worry about wattage so much. I have 89db speakers and the most powerful sounding amplifier that I have had on them is a 50w/channel class A at 8-ohm amplifier I built. I have had amps anywhere from 5-1000 watts.
Actually, I took a class A/B amp and converted it to class A. It sounded more powerful afterward. The Bass was tighter, the sound richer, etc. That amp is around 70-80 watts.
The things to look out for are a good power supply, a decent output stage, and a good circuit design. The Vidar looks like a nice amp. I haven't looked into it too much.
If you pull all this off soon, you may have the fastest Elsinore build in history!
Actually, I took a class A/B amp and converted it to class A. It sounded more powerful afterward. The Bass was tighter, the sound richer, etc. That amp is around 70-80 watts.
The things to look out for are a good power supply, a decent output stage, and a good circuit design. The Vidar looks like a nice amp. I haven't looked into it too much.
If you pull all this off soon, you may have the fastest Elsinore build in history!
Thanks for the insight!
The biggest jump I had was from some Sony surround sound amplifier to my now Amplifier which sounds much better at lower volumes. I contributed that to higher overhead but maybe it was the other elements.
Yes, I plan to finish at the end of March or start of April! Helps I picked up the dropped projects a long the way, very thankful for that!
The biggest jump I had was from some Sony surround sound amplifier to my now Amplifier which sounds much better at lower volumes. I contributed that to higher overhead but maybe it was the other elements.
Yes, I plan to finish at the end of March or start of April! Helps I picked up the dropped projects a long the way, very thankful for that!
WeBuild, I think you are going a lot farther than you need. I have two amps, connected through a speaker/amp switch, to my Elsinores. I can switch back and forth between them instantly and effortlessly. One amp is 400 watt Purifi and one is 2.5 watt Alan Eaton 45 SET. Up until about 80dB they sound basically the same, excepting the subtle tonality preference I have for the 45. The bass extension/tightness, treble, dynamics, etc. all the same. So I don’t think you need to worry about huge power for the Elsinores, unless you plan to listen very loud indeed. Separately, I also tried a 25wpc Pass Aleph J with them, and ran it up to probably 90 or 95 db and they sounded great. I did not do that back to back with the Purifi but it was plenty loud and nothing was missing.
Yes, and the aleph J isn't particularly known for it's bottom end. I love the Aleph-type amps. They have a wonderful sound. Rich and pretty.
A PassDIY F6 would likely shake some pictures on your wall. I know it did in my room with those 89db-sensitive speakers I mentioned.
Look for the best 50ish-watt amplifier that you can find. If it ends up being a few more watts, that is fine but focus on the design of the amplifier. Good power supply, good designer (mike Moffet of Schiit is a great designer), nice parts etc.
Vidar is probably more to your liking Aegir. Not due to the power per se but do to the fact that the Aegir was focused on being a sweet sort of warm-sounding amplifier. I have heard the Aegir. It was nice sounding. Schiit puts out a good product for the price. Now, if you decide to do DIY on an amplifier, then a whole world opens up! But there is a bit of a learning curve there. At least for your 25w+ amplifiers.
Not having built the Elsinore speakers yet, but having a very revealing set of speakers, I can say that once you start trying different amps, preamps, skipping preamps, DACs etc. It can get addicting! Amplifiers are probably the biggest reason that I have not built the Elsinore's yet! I can't stop building amps! It is a wormhole. You just keep falling into it... Good luck.
A PassDIY F6 would likely shake some pictures on your wall. I know it did in my room with those 89db-sensitive speakers I mentioned.
Look for the best 50ish-watt amplifier that you can find. If it ends up being a few more watts, that is fine but focus on the design of the amplifier. Good power supply, good designer (mike Moffet of Schiit is a great designer), nice parts etc.
Vidar is probably more to your liking Aegir. Not due to the power per se but do to the fact that the Aegir was focused on being a sweet sort of warm-sounding amplifier. I have heard the Aegir. It was nice sounding. Schiit puts out a good product for the price. Now, if you decide to do DIY on an amplifier, then a whole world opens up! But there is a bit of a learning curve there. At least for your 25w+ amplifiers.
Not having built the Elsinore speakers yet, but having a very revealing set of speakers, I can say that once you start trying different amps, preamps, skipping preamps, DACs etc. It can get addicting! Amplifiers are probably the biggest reason that I have not built the Elsinore's yet! I can't stop building amps! It is a wormhole. You just keep falling into it... Good luck.
May I ask which is the latest/correct crossover for the MFC-version?
I became uncertain when comparing forum posts to webpage:
I became uncertain when comparing forum posts to webpage:
Hi WeBuild4Life,
You have asked an interesting question in post 5282 which is hard to answer.
I was curious, so I used one of our “Wolverine Amp Spreadsheets” to check for amplifier clipping into this speaker. I assumed the following, 90dB/1W/1m, approximately 8 ohms for the speaker and the listening position is 3.05m. The dynamic range for music that I entered is an arbitrary figure of 16dB. (For more info see https://dr.loudness-war.info/). Some of the recordings that I have are 18 - 20dB.
With the two speakers at the listening position of 3.05m, you will get 85dB at 1.5 Watts RMS. However your amp needs to have at least 38 Volts dc per rail. Anything lower (for a dynamic range of 16dB) and it will clip.
Let’s try for 90dB at the listening position without clipping. You will need 4.65 Watts RMS and the rail voltage needs to be at least 63 Volts dc, for a dynamic range of 16dB. This is roughly a 200 Watt amp into 8 ohms! Food for thought.
Off topic - the above are approximates and do not take into account the SOA area of the output transistors etc. We use a separate spreadsheet for that (also developed by Jeremy).
NB. I use a 25Watt Class A amp in my bedroom with 88dB speakers without any "perceivable" problems but I listen to it at low volume. In my main system I use much larger amps. Hope the above info helps.
You have asked an interesting question in post 5282 which is hard to answer.
I was curious, so I used one of our “Wolverine Amp Spreadsheets” to check for amplifier clipping into this speaker. I assumed the following, 90dB/1W/1m, approximately 8 ohms for the speaker and the listening position is 3.05m. The dynamic range for music that I entered is an arbitrary figure of 16dB. (For more info see https://dr.loudness-war.info/). Some of the recordings that I have are 18 - 20dB.
With the two speakers at the listening position of 3.05m, you will get 85dB at 1.5 Watts RMS. However your amp needs to have at least 38 Volts dc per rail. Anything lower (for a dynamic range of 16dB) and it will clip.
Let’s try for 90dB at the listening position without clipping. You will need 4.65 Watts RMS and the rail voltage needs to be at least 63 Volts dc, for a dynamic range of 16dB. This is roughly a 200 Watt amp into 8 ohms! Food for thought.
Off topic - the above are approximates and do not take into account the SOA area of the output transistors etc. We use a separate spreadsheet for that (also developed by Jeremy).
NB. I use a 25Watt Class A amp in my bedroom with 88dB speakers without any "perceivable" problems but I listen to it at low volume. In my main system I use much larger amps. Hope the above info helps.
Attachments
Wow! I'm happy to have my rough understanding of this topic expanded upon.
I listented to a lot of speakerd today and I do think the systems with "over kill" levels of power resolved better, regardless of the speaker.
Does make me feel comfortable in purchasing at least 1 or more likely 2 amps. I do listen quite loud often enoug, but not for extended periods. Most my listening is done at reasonable volumes.
Now to figure out my acoustic treatment problem! Thanks!
I have to say that my experience with the Elsinores suggests something very different from the current discussion. Notably, I believe the Elsinores are probably 91 or 92 dB at 1 watt/meter; they are unquestionably very efficient. In any event, my pair can raise the roof powered by a 10 watt VFET amplifier in a 20' x 21' x 7.5' room. I hear no clipping, chuffing or other issues in the system. In my world, twenty-five watts is more than enough. Anything more than that is unnecessary and gross overkill.
It also bears mentioning that I believe Dick Olsher was right: it doesn't matter how many watts you have if they don't all sound great. Designs that favor wattage over sound quality are far less appealing than designs that exalt sound quality over wattage. Most listening (at least in my house) is at a watt or less. It's still plenty loud. Whatever you get, be sure it is a really good sounding amplifier -- Elsinores are particularly revealing loudspeakers.
Regards.
It also bears mentioning that I believe Dick Olsher was right: it doesn't matter how many watts you have if they don't all sound great. Designs that favor wattage over sound quality are far less appealing than designs that exalt sound quality over wattage. Most listening (at least in my house) is at a watt or less. It's still plenty loud. Whatever you get, be sure it is a really good sounding amplifier -- Elsinores are particularly revealing loudspeakers.
Regards.
Harry, your math would indicate that we are clipping our amps fairly often. I'm not saying that I disagree with your math. However, I'm kind of wondering how significant this potential clipping is. There are tons of 10 through 50 watt amplifiers powering lots of very expensive speakers out in the field with reports of audible clipping not being a common thing. Same with speaker damage. I don't really hear of tweeters going out very often. At least not in the Elsinore's.
The only amp that I can really remember that I got to clip would be a old marantz that was 15 watts. That one also had a problem. Other than that, nothing audible and I've had the same speakers for about 5-6 years now listening consistently just about everyday. Right now I have a 5, 6, 50, 80, 130 and a 200 watt amp. Most class A. The 6 watt is a tube amplifier which I can get to audibly distort a little. However, I have not gotten that five watt amplifier, (ACA Mini) to clip audibly.
WeBuild4Life, hearing damage starts at a consistent 90 decibels. Actually, it may even be a little less. Not peaks in that range but consistent. If you have not measured your speakers before, you'd be quite surprised at how loud that is. For me, my ears start ringing at about that range. I tend to listen between 82 and 87.
The only amp that I can really remember that I got to clip would be a old marantz that was 15 watts. That one also had a problem. Other than that, nothing audible and I've had the same speakers for about 5-6 years now listening consistently just about everyday. Right now I have a 5, 6, 50, 80, 130 and a 200 watt amp. Most class A. The 6 watt is a tube amplifier which I can get to audibly distort a little. However, I have not gotten that five watt amplifier, (ACA Mini) to clip audibly.
WeBuild4Life, hearing damage starts at a consistent 90 decibels. Actually, it may even be a little less. Not peaks in that range but consistent. If you have not measured your speakers before, you'd be quite surprised at how loud that is. For me, my ears start ringing at about that range. I tend to listen between 82 and 87.
Apologies to Joe for these off topic posts.
It's up to the individual to decide if they can hear the clipping and if it matters. I'll leave it at that.
It's up to the individual to decide if they can hear the clipping and if it matters. I'll leave it at that.
I am gradually getting the website up to scratch and it has been a long time, so apologies for that.
LINK: The 'Elsinore' Loudspeaker Project - © Joe Rasmussen 2006-23
All three different Crossovers are now posted on the front page of Elsinore on the website:
I will post the "MFC" here again.
Build update 1:
Wiring choices.
Going to post some of the stuff I am buying a long the way, and probably do a sum up post or video. That way if I have any glaring issues someone can yell at me before I press buy.
For internal wiring between the stand offs, crossovers, and woofers I plan to use the Audtek 10 AWG OFC Wire. I've used smaller gauges in previous build with good success, but bigger is better and this is better! Everything internally will be soldered, except for the xover board which has stand offs. I am going to wait until I have the xover in hand, as the stand offs may be too small.
For binding posts, I probably will use the Cardas HCBP binding posts.
External wiring will have post amp and pre amp cables made by me, i've done them before so I am comfortable with my ability.
Going from DAC to Amp I will use Mogami W2549 Balanced signal cable attached via XLR.
From the Amp to the binding posts I will use Belden 5T00UP 10awg stranded wire connected to spades.
Also, i'll use Amphenol AX3MB XLR cables.
Forgot how much wiring stuff costs, but when you have 150ft of it, plus the need for some tools it adds up! Still cheaper and higher quality than most off the shelf stuff though.
Wiring choices.
Going to post some of the stuff I am buying a long the way, and probably do a sum up post or video. That way if I have any glaring issues someone can yell at me before I press buy.
For internal wiring between the stand offs, crossovers, and woofers I plan to use the Audtek 10 AWG OFC Wire. I've used smaller gauges in previous build with good success, but bigger is better and this is better! Everything internally will be soldered, except for the xover board which has stand offs. I am going to wait until I have the xover in hand, as the stand offs may be too small.
For binding posts, I probably will use the Cardas HCBP binding posts.
External wiring will have post amp and pre amp cables made by me, i've done them before so I am comfortable with my ability.
Going from DAC to Amp I will use Mogami W2549 Balanced signal cable attached via XLR.
From the Amp to the binding posts I will use Belden 5T00UP 10awg stranded wire connected to spades.
Also, i'll use Amphenol AX3MB XLR cables.
Forgot how much wiring stuff costs, but when you have 150ft of it, plus the need for some tools it adds up! Still cheaper and higher quality than most off the shelf stuff though.
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Amazon basics has some nice 12 gauge that is relatively inexpensive. I got some in 100 ft roll years ago and had using it here and there since. I will say, larger gauges are a little bit more difficult to work with, weave around things etc. But that's not really a huge deal.
Build update 2:
Well, didn't think i'd post one so soon. Someone commented that I am going to have the quickest build in history and they will be right. Funny thing with sales is you never know what you're going to sell and how much fun money you have. This month happened to be a killer, so, speakers it is.
I changed all my wiring from 10awg to 12awg to better fit all the connectors I was using. I changed the Belden to the Mogami W3103. That cost a pretty penny. Two 15' runs using Furutech FP-209R rhodium plated copper Small Spade connections.
The XLR are still mogami as well.
Binding posts will be the Cardas HCBP L Binding Post.
I will be going with the SB17MFC35-8 6" and the d2608 tweeter of course. Decided not to stretch the budget another several thousand. Probably will build a bookshelf with those though, the are cool.
Now, the amplifier of choice. I am sure some people will hate THIS! AUDIOPHONICS LPA-S400ET Class D Stereo Amplifier Purifi 2x400W 4 Ohm. Yes.. class D! I have heard many many many good things about this amp. I have a 200w/channel 8ohm A/B amp down stairs and I will test my current speakers on the new amp, and new speakers on old amp. Given my listening habits, I did reach the conclusion I needed at least that amount of power to play rock loudly with 10-15db of headroom. Which rock does have!! Jazz would never be an issue. I am a bit hesitant but the many people I spoke with, and reviewers I trust all say that is a great amp.
I really really wanted to get the Vidar 2, but the noise floor was way too high for my listening room (I am close to the speakers, won't be playing super loud) and I would be hearing hiss all day. I can't deal with that.
For internal stuffing, I bought Bonded Dacron Upholstery 1" thick and will be gluing them together with spray adhesive to reach the 3" needed.
xover will be here tomorrow. Cabinets should be here this week. Everything else should arrive by next week. I'll get the wires made this weekend, and woofers all wired up next.
For those curious, I am about 3300 in on the speaker INCLUDING the insane cost to get the cabinets here, and the expensive cabinets as well. If doing this yourself, expect to save $1000 easily off this cost, so $2300 for the whole speaker! CRAZY! That is WITH the crossover!! With amp and room treatment I am a little above $5,000.
Next update should be (barring any issues) photos of parts arriving and assembly.
Well, didn't think i'd post one so soon. Someone commented that I am going to have the quickest build in history and they will be right. Funny thing with sales is you never know what you're going to sell and how much fun money you have. This month happened to be a killer, so, speakers it is.
I changed all my wiring from 10awg to 12awg to better fit all the connectors I was using. I changed the Belden to the Mogami W3103. That cost a pretty penny. Two 15' runs using Furutech FP-209R rhodium plated copper Small Spade connections.
The XLR are still mogami as well.
Binding posts will be the Cardas HCBP L Binding Post.
I will be going with the SB17MFC35-8 6" and the d2608 tweeter of course. Decided not to stretch the budget another several thousand. Probably will build a bookshelf with those though, the are cool.
Now, the amplifier of choice. I am sure some people will hate THIS! AUDIOPHONICS LPA-S400ET Class D Stereo Amplifier Purifi 2x400W 4 Ohm. Yes.. class D! I have heard many many many good things about this amp. I have a 200w/channel 8ohm A/B amp down stairs and I will test my current speakers on the new amp, and new speakers on old amp. Given my listening habits, I did reach the conclusion I needed at least that amount of power to play rock loudly with 10-15db of headroom. Which rock does have!! Jazz would never be an issue. I am a bit hesitant but the many people I spoke with, and reviewers I trust all say that is a great amp.
I really really wanted to get the Vidar 2, but the noise floor was way too high for my listening room (I am close to the speakers, won't be playing super loud) and I would be hearing hiss all day. I can't deal with that.
For internal stuffing, I bought Bonded Dacron Upholstery 1" thick and will be gluing them together with spray adhesive to reach the 3" needed.
xover will be here tomorrow. Cabinets should be here this week. Everything else should arrive by next week. I'll get the wires made this weekend, and woofers all wired up next.
For those curious, I am about 3300 in on the speaker INCLUDING the insane cost to get the cabinets here, and the expensive cabinets as well. If doing this yourself, expect to save $1000 easily off this cost, so $2300 for the whole speaker! CRAZY! That is WITH the crossover!! With amp and room treatment I am a little above $5,000.
Next update should be (barring any issues) photos of parts arriving and assembly.
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WeBuild4Life,
Good to see the rapid progress, and look forward to more updates soon! 🙂
Good to see the rapid progress, and look forward to more updates soon! 🙂
That is awesome! Nice progress. It will be interesting to see what you think once everythings comes together. Soon it looks like 👍
This doesn't warrant a whole post, but I hit a bump I fixed already. Issue is, America SOL for a bit if anyone here wants to build the Elsinore. I drained everyone's inventory.
Obviously we need (8).
Madi only had 2
Meniscus only had 2
Solen (Canda) had 3, I ordered 2.
LEAN Audio (UK, suffolk) had 2.
So I had to pay about $120 to 3 other companies for shipping. - I am used to it at this point 🙂. Other over seas distrubtors all seem to only have a couple each as well.
NONE are getting stock any time soon, in excess of 3 months. SB Acoustics does not have a production run for these any time soon. Wonder if this is a sign of them having issues?
On other notes. Similar to SRMcGee, I did find a local furniture company interested in building these, but only in a large quantity, they said 20 cabinets but not sure if less is doable, one off was a no. I don't need this anymore, but figured i'd get the info out there.
Obviously we need (8).
Madi only had 2
Meniscus only had 2
Solen (Canda) had 3, I ordered 2.
LEAN Audio (UK, suffolk) had 2.
So I had to pay about $120 to 3 other companies for shipping. - I am used to it at this point 🙂. Other over seas distrubtors all seem to only have a couple each as well.
NONE are getting stock any time soon, in excess of 3 months. SB Acoustics does not have a production run for these any time soon. Wonder if this is a sign of them having issues?
On other notes. Similar to SRMcGee, I did find a local furniture company interested in building these, but only in a large quantity, they said 20 cabinets but not sure if less is doable, one off was a no. I don't need this anymore, but figured i'd get the info out there.
