Well, I have nothing extra to say about this at the moment, but
since Kuei failed to follow the moderators order to start a new
thread on this topic if wishing to continue the discussion, I
decided to do so for him.
The discussion so far on this topic will soon appear in a thread
near you, if the moderators manage to lift it out of the thread
it appeared in.
Moderators: Please feel free to remove this post after moving
the discussion to this thread, since it is merely a place-holder.
since Kuei failed to follow the moderators order to start a new
thread on this topic if wishing to continue the discussion, I
decided to do so for him.
The discussion so far on this topic will soon appear in a thread
near you, if the moderators manage to lift it out of the thread
it appeared in.
Moderators: Please feel free to remove this post after moving
the discussion to this thread, since it is merely a place-holder.
Kuei was wrong.
If you turn off dither in Cooledit and generate a 0dBfs 1k sine wave, then attenuate by 96 dB you get, as one would predict, a 1k residual, with high distortion content.
Add dither and distortion drops dramatically, as one would predict.
I'll post pics later on.
Andy.
If you turn off dither in Cooledit and generate a 0dBfs 1k sine wave, then attenuate by 96 dB you get, as one would predict, a 1k residual, with high distortion content.
Add dither and distortion drops dramatically, as one would predict.
I'll post pics later on.
Andy.
You don't even need software. Look at the numbers: the lowest nonzero encodable number in a 16 bit system is 1. Or if you want to be pedantic, 0000000000000001. The highest encodable number is 65,536, or for the pedantic, 1111111111111111. So toggle the 1 on and off. That's the lowest signal encodable without dither or other signal processing. Toggle the 65,536 on and off. That's the biggest encodable signal, same qualification.
The dynamic range is defined as the ratio between biggest and smallest encodable signal. Converting to dB, 20 x log (65536) = 96.3 dB.
Whether or not you can figure out how to toggle these bits in a particular piece of software is irrelevant. Anyone can put the numbers in a file and use a graphing program.
The dynamic range is defined as the ratio between biggest and smallest encodable signal. Converting to dB, 20 x log (65536) = 96.3 dB.
Whether or not you can figure out how to toggle these bits in a particular piece of software is irrelevant. Anyone can put the numbers in a file and use a graphing program.
SY said:
Kuei's approach here rather reminds me of John Bedini's patent for his "Bedini Clarifier," a device which simply spins a CD around above an electromagnet.
In Bedini's patent, he claims that doing this not only rearranges the data on the CD, but also performs data compression on it. In other words, not only is the data on the CD different, it's relocated as well.
To prove that this was the case, he took a Kodak PhotoCD and copied an image off the CD onto his computer's hard drive. He then ran the CD on his Clarifier and then copied the same file to another directory on his computer's hard drive.
Then he pulled each file into a graphics program and converted them to PostScript files. He then he pulls the PostScript files into a text editor and shows that one file contains more lines of text than the other with the smaller one being from the Clarified CD. He then uses the text editor to compare the differences between the two and showed a number of differences between the two files.
Thus, by way of this experiment, he proved that his Clarifier was indeed rearranging and performing data compression just as he claimed.
So I thought I'd try a similar experiment.
I took a CD of some photographs and I copied one of the files onto my hard drive. I took the CD out of the drive, held it in my hand and looking sternly at it said:
"I claim that I am the Great and Powerful Steve Eddy. I know all. I see all. I command all. The Great and Powerful Steve Eddy commands the data on this disc to compress and rearrange itself. So shall it be written. So shall it be done."
I put the CD back in the drive and copied the same file over to another directory on my hard drive.
Then I pulled each file into CorelXARA! and converted them into PostScript files.
I didn't bother using a text editor. I just had to look at the file sizes. And indeed, the file sizes were different. Then I ran the DOS file compare utility (fc) on them and found that there were considerable differences between the two files.
I'd just proved beyond any doubt that I truly am the Great and Powerful Steve Eddy. That I know all. That I see all. That I command all.
And if I get any more lip from Kuei, I'm going to turn him into a Bose Wave Radio and donate it to the local senion citizens home so they can all listen to Paul Harvey.
Oh, and if anyone can't afford a Bedini Clarifier, just let me know and I'll be happy to use my powers to perform data rearrangement and compression on their CDs remotely.
se
Koinichiwa,
Okay, lets do this again. Dither is of. Cooledit is set to 16 Bit. I post step by step pictures.
Go to:
http://www.cooledit.com/
Download and install Cooledit 2.1.
Turn of Dither:
Make a sinewave:
Select 44.1KHz & 16 Bit in the intermeidate Dialogue:
Use 1KHz, 0dbfs as settings for sinewave:
Zoom in so we something of the waveform, just to confirm we did what we wanted to:
Attenuate the waveform by 91db:
Zoom in on the level axis only into the botton of the dynamic range - no signal at any funloving level, I only zoomed down to -102dbfs as this suffices:
I must admit this to be probably the most involved procedure for generating digital silence, but digital silence it generates, like it or not.
Please demonstrate where I went wrong (apart from leaving dither off, which was the whole point of the excercise - I KNOW what dither does and how it works). Everything done can be followed readily, easily and reliably by ANYONE who cares to experiment.
If you cannot tell me what "I did wrong", then explain why a 96db dynamic range system cannt encode anything below -90.3dbfs without dither.
I am waiting.
😡
Sayonara
ALW said:
Okay, lets do this again. Dither is of. Cooledit is set to 16 Bit. I post step by step pictures.
Go to:
http://www.cooledit.com/
Download and install Cooledit 2.1.
Turn of Dither:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Thunderstone_audiophile/files/96db/0 Turn off Dither.jpg Make a sinewave:
Select 44.1KHz & 16 Bit in the intermeidate Dialogue:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Thunderstone_audiophile/files/96db/0_ select 16 Bit.jpg Use 1KHz, 0dbfs as settings for sinewave:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Thunderstone_audiophile/files/96db/1 Generate Wave.jpg Zoom in so we something of the waveform, just to confirm we did what we wanted to:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Thunderstone_audiophile/files/96db/2 view 0dbfs Waveform.jpg Attenuate the waveform by 91db:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Thunderstone_audiophile/files/96db/3 Attenuate 91db.jpg Zoom in on the level axis only into the botton of the dynamic range - no signal at any funloving level, I only zoomed down to -102dbfs as this suffices:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Thunderstone_audiophile/files/96db/4 zoom in on waveform - silence.jpg I must admit this to be probably the most involved procedure for generating digital silence, but digital silence it generates, like it or not.
Please demonstrate where I went wrong (apart from leaving dither off, which was the whole point of the excercise - I KNOW what dither does and how it works). Everything done can be followed readily, easily and reliably by ANYONE who cares to experiment.
If you cannot tell me what "I did wrong", then explain why a 96db dynamic range system cannt encode anything below -90.3dbfs without dither.
I am waiting.
😡
Sayonara
clarifier clarification
Starting with the disclaimer that I hate audio charlatans with a well documented passion and will include the claims of Mr. Bedini on data compression, I will admit to hearing the effect of demagnetizing, with a bulk tape eraser, some (not all) CDs. I believe it might have something to do with the permeability of the inks on the label. I will put on my boots for the oncoming load of "knowledge" from an expert on electromagnetics as well. In his defense (knowledge, not character), I will point out Mr. Bedini knows how to design amplifiers but lacked the expertise in marketing them possessed by some gifted individuals.
Starting with the disclaimer that I hate audio charlatans with a well documented passion and will include the claims of Mr. Bedini on data compression, I will admit to hearing the effect of demagnetizing, with a bulk tape eraser, some (not all) CDs. I believe it might have something to do with the permeability of the inks on the label. I will put on my boots for the oncoming load of "knowledge" from an expert on electromagnetics as well. In his defense (knowledge, not character), I will point out Mr. Bedini knows how to design amplifiers but lacked the expertise in marketing them possessed by some gifted individuals.
Misinformation central
The pedantic would disagree. The full scale level in 16-bit PCM is 32767, or 15 bits with a sign. So full scale positive is 0x7FFF and full scale negative is 0x8000. The dynamic range is therefore 20*log(32767) or 90.3dB
The maximum thoeretical dynamic range of a PCM system is 20 times the base-10 logarithm of 2 raised to the power of one less than the number of bits, or 20*log(2^(bits - 1)).
It is not 96dB. It is 90.3dB
SY said:
The pedantic would disagree. The full scale level in 16-bit PCM is 32767, or 15 bits with a sign. So full scale positive is 0x7FFF and full scale negative is 0x8000. The dynamic range is therefore 20*log(32767) or 90.3dB
The maximum thoeretical dynamic range of a PCM system is 20 times the base-10 logarithm of 2 raised to the power of one less than the number of bits, or 20*log(2^(bits - 1)).
Kuei Yang Wang said:
It is not 96dB. It is 90.3dB
Kuei Yang Wang said:
What you did wrong was assume you were getting nothing but digital silence by simply eyeballing the screen.
Here's the frequency spectrum of 1 second of digital silence:
<center>
<img src="http://www.q-audio.com/images/silence.jpg">
</center>
Here's the frequency spectrum of 1 second of a 1kHz sinewave at 0dBFS:
<center>
<img src="http://www.q-audio.com/images/fullscale.jpg">
</center>
Here's the frequency spectrum of that same full scale sinewave with the amplitude set for -90.3dB:
<center>
<img src="http://www.q-audio.com/images/90point3db.jpg">
</center>
And here is the frequency spectrum of that same full scale sinewave with the amplitude set for -96dB:
<center>
<img src="http://www.q-audio.com/images/96db.jpg">
</center>
Well it looks like HTML tags are dinked up again so you'll just have to copy and paste the URLs above to see them.
se
to jwb
That's not correct, I believe. Using a sign bit (say, zero for negative and 1 for positive in the first bit position) is no different than using any other bit, with one minor exception. That exception is the degeneracy of 1000000000... and 00000000.... So the system still has 65,534 other nondegenerate codes. You can still toggle the LSB on and off:
0000000000000000,
0000000000000000,
0000000000000001,
0000000000000001,
0000000000000000,
0000000000000000,
0000000000000001,
0000000000000001,
,
.
.
.
and compare that signal to
0111111111111111,
0111111111111111,
1111111111111111,
1111111111111111,
0111111111111111,
0111111111111111,
1111111111111111,
1111111111111111.
.
.
.
Sure, the signing introduces an offset in the signal (ie, the low level signal is not symmetrical about the zero voltage axis), but, so what? The ratio of the biggest to the smallest signal encodable is still 96 dB, unless you restrict things to only those signals that are symmetric about DC. And that's an unneccessary constraint.
That's not correct, I believe. Using a sign bit (say, zero for negative and 1 for positive in the first bit position) is no different than using any other bit, with one minor exception. That exception is the degeneracy of 1000000000... and 00000000.... So the system still has 65,534 other nondegenerate codes. You can still toggle the LSB on and off:
0000000000000000,
0000000000000000,
0000000000000001,
0000000000000001,
0000000000000000,
0000000000000000,
0000000000000001,
0000000000000001,
,
.
.
.
and compare that signal to
0111111111111111,
0111111111111111,
1111111111111111,
1111111111111111,
0111111111111111,
0111111111111111,
1111111111111111,
1111111111111111.
.
.
.
Sure, the signing introduces an offset in the signal (ie, the low level signal is not symmetrical about the zero voltage axis), but, so what? The ratio of the biggest to the smallest signal encodable is still 96 dB, unless you restrict things to only those signals that are symmetric about DC. And that's an unneccessary constraint.
96 botlles of beer on the wall
Dr. Everett v. Scott:
From the day he was born
He was trouble
He was the thorn
In his mother's side
She tried in vain
Criminologist: But he never caused her nothing but shame_
Dr. Everett v. Scott: He left home the day she died
From the day she was gone
All he wanted
Was rock and roll porn
And a motorbike
Shooting up junk
Criminologist: He was a low down cheap little punk_
Dr. Everett v. Scott: Taking everyone for a ride_
Chorus:
When Eddie said he didn't like his teddy
You knew he was a no good kid
But when he threatened your life
With a switch blade knife
Dr. Frank-N-Furter: What a guy_
Janet Weiss: Makes you cry_
Dr. Everett v. Scott: And I did_
Columbia:
Everybody shoved him
I very nearly loved him
I said hey listen to me
Stay sane inside insanity
But he locked the door
And threw away the key
Dr. Everett v. Scott: But he must've been drawn
Into something
Making him warn me
In a note which reads
Chorus: What's it say? What's it say?_
Eddie:
I'm out of my head
Oh hurry, or I may be dead
They mustn't carry out their evil deeds
Chorus:
When Eddie said he didn't like his teddy
You knew he was a no good kid
But when he threatened your life
With a switch blade knife
Dr. Frank-N-Furter: What a guy_
Janet Weiss: Makes you cry_
Dr. Everett v. Scott: And I did_
Chorus:
When Eddie said he didn't like his teddy
You knew he was a no good kid
But when he threatened your life
With a switch blade knife
Dr. Frank-N-Furter: What a guy_
Chorus: Whoa ho ho_
Janet Weiss: Makes you cry_
Chorus: Hey hey hey_
Dr. Everett v. Scott: And I did_
Chorus: Eddie_
Dr. Everett v. Scott:
From the day he was born
He was trouble
He was the thorn
In his mother's side
She tried in vain
Criminologist: But he never caused her nothing but shame_
Dr. Everett v. Scott: He left home the day she died
From the day she was gone
All he wanted
Was rock and roll porn
And a motorbike
Shooting up junk
Criminologist: He was a low down cheap little punk_
Dr. Everett v. Scott: Taking everyone for a ride_
Chorus:
When Eddie said he didn't like his teddy
You knew he was a no good kid
But when he threatened your life
With a switch blade knife
Dr. Frank-N-Furter: What a guy_
Janet Weiss: Makes you cry_
Dr. Everett v. Scott: And I did_
Columbia:
Everybody shoved him
I very nearly loved him
I said hey listen to me
Stay sane inside insanity
But he locked the door
And threw away the key
Dr. Everett v. Scott: But he must've been drawn
Into something
Making him warn me
In a note which reads
Chorus: What's it say? What's it say?_
Eddie:
I'm out of my head
Oh hurry, or I may be dead
They mustn't carry out their evil deeds
Chorus:
When Eddie said he didn't like his teddy
You knew he was a no good kid
But when he threatened your life
With a switch blade knife
Dr. Frank-N-Furter: What a guy_
Janet Weiss: Makes you cry_
Dr. Everett v. Scott: And I did_
Chorus:
When Eddie said he didn't like his teddy
You knew he was a no good kid
But when he threatened your life
With a switch blade knife
Dr. Frank-N-Furter: What a guy_
Chorus: Whoa ho ho_
Janet Weiss: Makes you cry_
Chorus: Hey hey hey_
Dr. Everett v. Scott: And I did_
Chorus: Eddie_
Attachments
Re: to jwb
This signal has a peak-to-peak amplitude of 1
0x7FFF, +32767
0xFFFF, -1
This signal has a peak-to-peak amplitude of 32768. Dynamic range is 20*log(32768/1) or 90.3dB.
Cheers
SY said:
This signal has a peak-to-peak amplitude of 1
0x7FFF, +32767
0xFFFF, -1
This signal has a peak-to-peak amplitude of 32768. Dynamic range is 20*log(32768/1) or 90.3dB.
Cheers
Well, having a redundant code when using signed representation depends upon which representation you're using. If you're using 2's complement then the range for 16 bits is -32768 -> 32767, and could be either -32768 -> 32767 or -32767 -> 32768 for a scaled representation (where 0 is represented as 0 + 32768 or 0 + 32767).
Yeah I'm just egging him on. If your system allows a signal to oscillate between 0 and +1, thereby having a +.5 DC offset, then your dynamic range increases to 96dB. But that sounds like a bad idea. I'm assuming that CD audio's smallest allowed signal is +1,-1.
-jwb
-jwb
Omelette.
I don't understand your second set of statements. It seems like you're going from 32767 to -32767, for a peak-to-peak amplitude of... well, you know. The offset in my example is not 0.5 volt, it's 0.5 times the voltage corresponding to the LSB. That's a lot different. Unless you're using the CD player hooked to Ol' Sparky.
Fred's picture says it all. There's three levels clearly visible. That's not the smallest possible signal, it's the smallest possible signal with the constraint of symmetry. No impulse testing for you, Fred!
I don't understand your second set of statements. It seems like you're going from 32767 to -32767, for a peak-to-peak amplitude of... well, you know. The offset in my example is not 0.5 volt, it's 0.5 times the voltage corresponding to the LSB. That's a lot different. Unless you're using the CD player hooked to Ol' Sparky.
Fred's picture says it all. There's three levels clearly visible. That's not the smallest possible signal, it's the smallest possible signal with the constraint of symmetry. No impulse testing for you, Fred!
Steve:
You win the third "make Michael spit out his pepsi on the keyboard award"!
I wish I could write 'em this good. 🙂
You win the third "make Michael spit out his pepsi on the keyboard award"!
I wish I could write 'em this good. 🙂
Steve Eddy said:
I think I get your point now SY. Better make it an offset of
-1/2 bit rather than +1/2 bit, though, because of the 2's
complement coding.
-1/2 bit rather than +1/2 bit, though, because of the 2's
complement coding.
Considering his usual post...........
"Steve:
You win the third "make Michael spit out his pepsi on the keyboard award"!
I wish I could write 'em this good"
Are you sure he's kidding................
"Steve:
You win the third "make Michael spit out his pepsi on the keyboard award"!
I wish I could write 'em this good"
Are you sure he's kidding................
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