I'm one who's never going to pick up NE5534 again. I've tried it numerous times. I wanted to like this opamp because it's cheap, sounds clean, have a likeable tonality etc, but it's dull. Not just compared to other opamps. When I add an amp with this opamp to the audio chain I'm pretty certain that it doesn't sound neutral. I've only tried Texas NE5534, and I've heard that other brands might sound different.
Hurtig, can't you tell us what opamps you've tried and give a review of them. It's always interesting to read reviews from people who have tried a lot of different devices, including discrete amps. It would also be interesting to know what your discrete amps look like. If you don't want to give away all your secrets, you could show a simplified schematic without values. I started to make discrete amps because I wasn't satisfied with "the opamp sound". Now I'm not so sure anymore.
Hurtig, can't you tell us what opamps you've tried and give a review of them. It's always interesting to read reviews from people who have tried a lot of different devices, including discrete amps. It would also be interesting to know what your discrete amps look like. If you don't want to give away all your secrets, you could show a simplified schematic without values. I started to make discrete amps because I wasn't satisfied with "the opamp sound". Now I'm not so sure anymore.
I've heard discrete output stages in well respected audio equipment (such as the popular North Star Model 192 DAC) not sounding better than the last generation of audio opamps at all.Funny thing about thoose "Op-Amp-Tweaking" entusiasts... They always search the datasheets for the best op-amp. Then they swap, and tell you that the new one is SO much better! The day after, they will start looking for a new one
And every time they change, they will tell you how much better it sounds... 10 yearsand a hundred op-amps later, many of them will pick the good old NE5534 in a blind test, as the best sonic performerYeap... I did that test with a friend of mine a couple of years ago.
Why don't you put some effort into building a good discrete/non-feedback analog stage?? The op-amp approach is the easy and fail safe way towards a low end solution. Discrete design is the hard way, but it can take you to real high end. Op-amps will not, even at -140dB THD!
And, I will insist that the last generation of audio opamps (OPA1611, AD8599, LME49720HA and so on) sound so very much better than your NE5534...
However, numbers are crucial, as I keep repeating, in terms of pairings of opamps with other opamps or, expecially, DAC chips...
And I will acknowledge that NE5532 and NE5534 are "musical" opamps, since they have the highly musical numbers "5" and "3" in abundance.
Which is also the reason why I prefer (comparing apples to apples, i.e. plastic package to plastic package) the LME49723 and LME49725 to the other LME's with no 3's or 5's at all.
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And the LT1028ACN8 is an "old" audio opamp that just blows away the NE5534 - with the only exception of the aforementioned numbers matter. The LT1028 is more tonally transparent though
Cheaper than the LT1028 but still able to blow away the NE5534, plus unlike the LT1028 unity gain stable, is the (musical) LT1357.
Cheaper than the LT1028 but still able to blow away the NE5534, plus unlike the LT1028 unity gain stable, is the (musical) LT1357.
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Dull!?
I would sat that the OPA627 or OPA827 (but also the LT1122 and OPA2107, interestingly all FET-input things) are "dull"; while the NE5534 is, certainly, lacking extension, ease in the upper midrange, definition, and ambience... but nothing like "dull". It's a warm-colored sounding opamp, typical of the "5", and luminous too, as typical of the "3".Ultimately, it's colored! Not dull. Colored in a musical way (unlike the unmusical colorations of those FET opamps above; which are also anticipated by their numbers, naturally). I guess this explains why people still enjoy it (as Hurtig reported, although in comparison with I-don't-know-what-other-opamps).
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I have tried a lot of op-amps. Here are some of them:
NE5532/5534
MC33078/79
AD711
AD797
AD811
AD812
AD825
AD826
AD844
AD845
AD8065
LM4562
LM6171
LM6172
LM6181
LT1028
LT1056
OP27
OP275
OPA211/OPA2211
OPA2134
And some more
For obvious reasons, I will not spend time on a review for each. But in general, op-amps will make the sound flat and compressed. Try listening to the same song in a compressed and a non-compressed version, and you will get an idea of what I mean. Going from any op-amp to a good discrete design, is like going from a compressed to a non-compressed version.
In general, FET based op-amps tend to "polish" the sound, making it very nice and easy listening. I don't want that kind og manipulation to the sound. But again.... Some people like tube-gear. And that may be the worst kind of sound manipulation
In a low cost project, I would consider using an op-amp, to keep the cost and R&D time down. But for serious high end audio... No Go!
I agree to you're description of opamps sounding compressed. That's why I for a while turned my back on them. Regarding reviews, it's not obvious not to review a couple or even all of them. You don't have to use that many words.
It's funny how different we perceive sound. I think bipolar input amps have a polished sound compared to JFET. JFETs can be "polished" by using cascodes or CFP. I think JFETs in general sound grainier, sometimes harsh or even dirty, sounds "down to earh", often have a more focused and correct soundstage and better "rhythm". Bipolar is more ethereal, can be unfocused, clean and sometimes even sterile. I like both of them in diffrent ways, and I prefer to vary between them.In general, FET based op-amps tend to "polish" the sound, making it very nice and easy listening. I don't want that kind og manipulation to the sound. But again.... Some people like tube-gear. And that may be the worst kind of sound manipulation
It's funny how different we describe how things sound. Lacking definition, ambience and trebele extension = dull to me. Yes it's overly warm, and yes it's luminous in a way. That's what I meant when I said that I like it's tonality, but it's totally unexciting = dull.Dull!?
Hello,
I agree that swaping in and out opamps especially unity gain stable ones (and power supply is of the correct value) is easy and fun way to "change" the sound. Is it better or worse is a very difficult question but it is certainly different... unless you have the ability to instantly toggle between with match volume I think it is hard to pick one with consistancy unless the surrounding circuit is really not complimentary to a specific op amp being swapped in.
Of course a careful and simple no-feedback discrete solution is and will always be better because of the no feedback... try to guess how much feedback is designed inside those op amps and then in some cases we add feedback loops around the op amps....
The number of stages inside the op amp I think is the factor that dictates sound signature (should I say distortion signature) the most, then comes technology used (FET, bipolar etc..).
That said, the equipment I have now uses these duals: 2604, TL072, NE5532 some stock some not.
am I curious about the 2211? Yes I am and if I could find them pre-mounted on a an adapter for DIP I would buy some immediately just to kill my curiousity. I think this one could help remove some DC blocking caps in some cases and this would certainly improve the sound.
but you all more experience then me.
keep sharing your impressions.
/paba
I agree that swaping in and out opamps especially unity gain stable ones (and power supply is of the correct value) is easy and fun way to "change" the sound. Is it better or worse is a very difficult question but it is certainly different... unless you have the ability to instantly toggle between with match volume I think it is hard to pick one with consistancy unless the surrounding circuit is really not complimentary to a specific op amp being swapped in.
Of course a careful and simple no-feedback discrete solution is and will always be better because of the no feedback... try to guess how much feedback is designed inside those op amps and then in some cases we add feedback loops around the op amps....
The number of stages inside the op amp I think is the factor that dictates sound signature (should I say distortion signature) the most, then comes technology used (FET, bipolar etc..).
That said, the equipment I have now uses these duals: 2604, TL072, NE5532 some stock some not.
am I curious about the 2211? Yes I am and if I could find them pre-mounted on a an adapter for DIP I would buy some immediately just to kill my curiousity. I think this one could help remove some DC blocking caps in some cases and this would certainly improve the sound.
but you all more experience then me.
keep sharing your impressions.
/paba
None of those is an opamp I'd use anymore.I have tried a lot of op-amps. Here are some of them:
NE5532/5534
MC33078/79
AD711
AD797
AD811
AD812
AD825
AD826
AD844
AD845
AD8065
LM4562
LM6171
LM6172
LM6181
LT1028
LT1056
OP27
OP275
OPA211/OPA2211
OPA2134
And some more
For obvious reasons, I will not spend time on a review for each. But in general, op-amps will make the sound flat and compressed. Try listening to the same song in a compressed and a non-compressed version, and you will get an idea of what I mean. Going from any op-amp to a good discrete design, is like going from a compressed to a non-compressed version.
In general, FET based op-amps tend to "polish" the sound, making it very nice and easy listening. I don't want that kind og manipulation to the sound. But again.... Some people like tube-gear. And that may be the worst kind of sound manipulation
In a low cost project, I would consider using an op-amp, to keep the cost and R&D time down. But for serious high end audio... No Go!
Only the LT1028, provided that it was the "ACN8" grade, which I guess you didn't use or you'd have known the difference.
Regarding FET opamps, I don't really find they polish the sound, they rather throw some grain at it
Compressed! Sounds funny
But I guess you're entitled to have your own thinking when you're missing all the best chips.
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Yeah it's funny... it must be that we simply call different things exciting or unexciting. I have a highly developed sensitivity for sonic color, and I can't live without that side of things. You can remove (to an extent) resolution, ambience, extension and dynamics...but don't deprive me of my colors
To me, that is a "dead" sound!Yeah, probably. But that is pretty much useless wisdom, when improving budget equipment is concerned. More importantly...: the best opamps really set a very high standard, at a ridiculous cost. I just don't like to talk élite
The number of stages... possibly. But I don't think more than FET vs. bipolar, since the better FET opamps all sound more limited than the good bipolars to me
(I admit still having to try that interesting ADA4627-1 though)You had better try the OPA1612, trust me.
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The following bit of mostly wild speculation is actually a request for more information.
Nobody mentions JRC4580 and 4560 (stronger).
Why?
The top of the line M-audio sound cards use those sort of opamps, and their owners report stuff like "oh wow, best thing ever" and so forth. I think they're slightly colorific, but they give a big huge live sound that helps music sound so much more real. And, that, of course, is great fun when you go to amplify it.
Possibly this "sound" comes from the Via Envy and Tremor Dac's and the little op amp merely faithfully amplifies it.
My apologies, I haven't tested the 4580 and 4560 separately from Via Envy and Tremor. However, the Tremor $14 Via sound cards if given upgraded output caps (//existing caps with Nichicon Muse 0.47uF) sound exactly like the M-Audio Audiophile 192, and the $14 cards do it without the 4580 (I think).
Hmm. So, the little op amp being rather faithful is plausible.
One fact: What I've got for a fact is that the 4580 didn't interfere with a big huge live sound presentation and it didn't interfere with precision measuring equipment.
It was also possibly unnecessary.
Does anyone know?
Nobody mentions JRC4580 and 4560 (stronger).
Why?
The top of the line M-audio sound cards use those sort of opamps, and their owners report stuff like "oh wow, best thing ever" and so forth. I think they're slightly colorific, but they give a big huge live sound that helps music sound so much more real. And, that, of course, is great fun when you go to amplify it.
Possibly this "sound" comes from the Via Envy and Tremor Dac's and the little op amp merely faithfully amplifies it.
My apologies, I haven't tested the 4580 and 4560 separately from Via Envy and Tremor. However, the Tremor $14 Via sound cards if given upgraded output caps (//existing caps with Nichicon Muse 0.47uF) sound exactly like the M-Audio Audiophile 192, and the $14 cards do it without the 4580 (I think).
Hmm. So, the little op amp being rather faithful is plausible.
One fact: What I've got for a fact is that the 4580 didn't interfere with a big huge live sound presentation and it didn't interfere with precision measuring equipment.
It was also possibly unnecessary.
Does anyone know?
None of those is an opamp I'd use anymore.
Only the LT1028, provided that it was the "ACN8" grade, which I guess you didn't use or you'd have known the difference.
Regarding FET opamps, I don't really find they polish the sound, they rather throw some grain at it
Compressed! Sounds funny
Please tell me which op-amps to use then...
OPA1611, AD8597, LME49710HA (TO99), ADA4627-1, ADA4898-1, OPA1641, LME49725, the current-feedback (thus not easy to use by myself) LME49713HA (TO99) ...
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Just because I was afraidThe following bit of mostly wild speculation is actually a request for more information.
Nobody mentions JRC4580 and 4560 (stronger).
Why?
The top of the line M-audio sound cards use those sort of opamps, and their owners report stuff like "oh wow, best thing ever" and so forth. I think they're slightly colorific, but they give a big huge live sound that helps music sound so much more real. And, that, of course, is great fun when you go to amplify it.
Possibly this "sound" comes from the Via Envy and Tremor Dac's and the little op amp merely faithfully amplifies it.
My apologies, I haven't tested the 4580 and 4560 separately from Via Envy and Tremor. However, the Tremor $14 Via sound cards if given upgraded output caps (//existing caps with Nichicon Muse 0.47uF) sound exactly like the M-Audio Audiophile 192, and the $14 cards do it without the 4580 (I think).
Hmm. So, the little op amp being rather faithful is plausible.
One fact: What I've got for a fact is that the 4580 didn't interfere with a big huge live sound presentation and it didn't interfere with precision measuring equipment.
It was also possibly unnecessary.
Does anyone know?
Accuphase uses the JRC 4580 a lot in their latest CD players, such as the "low end" (for their parameters) DP-400 which has been extremely appreciated by the Italian press. It's worth saying that formerly they used to employ the JRC 5532 and 2114..
And my cheap but so-good-sounding Pioneer A-209R uses a uPC4570, a bipolar input, 7 MHz and 15 V/uS opamp, with distortion graphs comparable to those of the NE5534, maybe better at high frequency - which may be hard to find for us, though..
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About those cheap NJM chips, why don't you just try them in some application where you can roll opamps? They cost almost nothing. There are almost no reviews of these opamps. One can only read how people have upgraded their systems by changing them for something else, most often LM4562. All reports I've read have been in favor of some of the more highly regarded opamps.
I've rolled NJM2068 in and out of amps, and I don't like it. It's not warm and cozy, it doesn't have good resolution, it's not exciting etc. I can't find anything to like about it. NJM2068 seems to be the same circuit as NJM4560 and 4580.
I've rolled NJM2068 in and out of amps, and I don't like it. It's not warm and cozy, it doesn't have good resolution, it's not exciting etc. I can't find anything to like about it. NJM2068 seems to be the same circuit as NJM4560 and 4580.
I would NOT replace the said uPC4570 with an LM4562NA. I'd only consider replacing it with a (TO99) LME49720HA, or with the (SOIC) LME49725 (since in my DAC I have the OPA1611 and I know it's not the wisest of things to 'double' it by using the OPA1612 in the amp
).
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