Hello,
I have two RCF L18S801 laying around. initially I wanted to build another subwoofer with them, but the person sadly never responded (seems to be normal from what I heard online / others have experienced) so I searched the internet for alternatives. i found some enclosures but im unsure at the moment as of what i should choose. this seems to be really nice / the best alternative to the initial enclosure but does anyone know if the RCF drivers would work ? I mean they are kinda "old" compared to the recommended drivers for the th18 / the xmax is 6.8mm so I assume that I would have to set the high pass pretty high. 40hz with adequate spl would be great (or "the goal") as this would be used mainly for trap / electro / similar music (partying). the biggest event would be like 70-100 people (max) but it could be outdoors (gardens, etc.). At first I wanted to build 4 subwoofers (rcf). does this make sense to build 4 TH18 with the RCFs compared to two with the B&C 18SW115. I mean if I sell the rcf chassis I would have the money to buy the B&C chassis. I assume that the low frequency response still would be a bit better with two 18sw115 or am I wrong ?
(the budget is limited so I really could only build two th 18 with the b&c drivers / im a student).
unfortunately I dont have a working pc at the moment...
would be great if someone could help me (that would help me a lot actually because im kinda stuck at the moment
).
oh and the TSP of course (L18S801):
Resonance frequency:39 Hz
DC resistance:4.9Ω
Mechanical factor:8.3
Electrical factor:0.30
Total factor:0.29
BL Factor:24.5 T · m
Effective Moving Mass:148 g
Equivalent Cas air load:206 liters
Effettive piston area:0.113 m²
Max. linear excursion (mathematical):6.8 mm
Voice - coil inductance @ 1kHz:1.7 mH
Half-space efficiency:3.93%
RCF - L18S801
best regards
guenther
I have two RCF L18S801 laying around. initially I wanted to build another subwoofer with them, but the person sadly never responded (seems to be normal from what I heard online / others have experienced) so I searched the internet for alternatives. i found some enclosures but im unsure at the moment as of what i should choose. this seems to be really nice / the best alternative to the initial enclosure but does anyone know if the RCF drivers would work ? I mean they are kinda "old" compared to the recommended drivers for the th18 / the xmax is 6.8mm so I assume that I would have to set the high pass pretty high. 40hz with adequate spl would be great (or "the goal") as this would be used mainly for trap / electro / similar music (partying). the biggest event would be like 70-100 people (max) but it could be outdoors (gardens, etc.). At first I wanted to build 4 subwoofers (rcf). does this make sense to build 4 TH18 with the RCFs compared to two with the B&C 18SW115. I mean if I sell the rcf chassis I would have the money to buy the B&C chassis. I assume that the low frequency response still would be a bit better with two 18sw115 or am I wrong ?
(the budget is limited so I really could only build two th 18 with the b&c drivers / im a student).
unfortunately I dont have a working pc at the moment...
would be great if someone could help me (that would help me a lot actually because im kinda stuck at the moment
). oh and the TSP of course (L18S801):
Resonance frequency:39 Hz
DC resistance:4.9Ω
Mechanical factor:8.3
Electrical factor:0.30
Total factor:0.29
BL Factor:24.5 T · m
Effective Moving Mass:148 g
Equivalent Cas air load:206 liters
Effettive piston area:0.113 m²
Max. linear excursion (mathematical):6.8 mm
Voice - coil inductance @ 1kHz:1.7 mH
Half-space efficiency:3.93%
RCF - L18S801
best regards
guenther
this rcf is not going to work not enough motor strength and not enough xmax, to high fs to to anything meaningful in bass, try to find oberton 18xb1500 as cheaper alternative to the b&c.
alternative designs in budget are the cubo15, cubo18 or tham15. all so good bass from 40hz. and maybe the rcf can work in those designs
alternative designs in budget are the cubo15, cubo18 or tham15. all so good bass from 40hz. and maybe the rcf can work in those designs
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Are any of the less expensive B&C's a better match for this cab than the TBW100 in 8 ohm? I have a set of 4 with the TBWs in them now, but I'm in the middle of building a new set of front loaders designed around that particular driver. Because I had them, of course. I have 2 built, and the new cabs are working quite well so more will be on the way. Should I replace the TH18's drivers with the same, or is there a less expensive option that would yield better subjective results? I will only be using the TH18's with 2 per side on an RMX5050. If i want more output or lower that's what the "DH horns" are for. Or OTOH is it better to keep the same driver in use in several places? Just considering my options because I,m at a point where I could change them without losing anything.
Okay, thanks, thats what i thought...
So i think that im going to sell the rcf drivers...
I thought about the cubo (and its nice but i think its not the best compromise for my "needs"). but the goal would be a good "mix" between size / weight / output and low frequency response. With that said the th18 looks like the best of those three worlds.
The Oberton seems as if its harder to get at my location. The B&C is a bit easier to find so i would try the B&C 18sw115
By the way:
Is the plan on hornplans fr the "up to date" version of this subwoofer enclosure ? I read that there are some older plans on the internet.
Does anyone know that ?
good afternoon all.
I obtained a pair of Faital Pro 18XL1600 (4 ohm) and just bought the all the material for a pair of TH18's. However I am noticing now I may have omitted the mouth brace. Can anyone help me with the cutting list & measurements for all internal bracings please.
I am almost ready to start putting the boxes together. Just busy cutting all the angles.
thanking you in advance for all your assistance
I obtained a pair of Faital Pro 18XL1600 (4 ohm) and just bought the all the material for a pair of TH18's. However I am noticing now I may have omitted the mouth brace. Can anyone help me with the cutting list & measurements for all internal bracings please.
I am almost ready to start putting the boxes together. Just busy cutting all the angles.
thanking you in advance for all your assistance
Hi all
i was using 8 pcs of TH18 friday night the first time on this nice open-air "rock in the park"-event. we used 4 passive ones paralleld to 4 self-powered ones. also we had 2 double 18 bassreflex cabs supporting the upper bass range. it was cool, two bands and a djane were playing heavy alternativ rock to about 800 listeners.
because it was a low budget gig we had not enough hands on stage and at the end not enough time to check out the optimum bass array. although the pa worked well because of the oversizing and headroom but im shure next time we can make it better. Playback music was really fine, but we generally had troubles with the dassdrum mics.
it was was very interesting to watch the directivity of the system. behind the stage bass was like shut off. i guess the problems with micing the bassdrum has something to do with this. does somebody of you know something about this issue?
i was using 8 pcs of TH18 friday night the first time on this nice open-air "rock in the park"-event. we used 4 passive ones paralleld to 4 self-powered ones. also we had 2 double 18 bassreflex cabs supporting the upper bass range. it was cool, two bands and a djane were playing heavy alternativ rock to about 800 listeners.
because it was a low budget gig we had not enough hands on stage and at the end not enough time to check out the optimum bass array. although the pa worked well because of the oversizing and headroom but im shure next time we can make it better. Playback music was really fine, but we generally had troubles with the dassdrum mics.
it was was very interesting to watch the directivity of the system. behind the stage bass was like shut off. i guess the problems with micing the bassdrum has something to do with this. does somebody of you know something about this issue?
Attachments
Weird, usually there is a power alley when you space subs. Maybe the br cabs had phase issues with the horns but I have noticed big nuls with kick mics and subs before.
Hey mr. doom
interesting! the br-subs we previously aligned correctly in a separate measuring session. as i said dj stuff was fine. the br cabs were rather speaker stands than subs.
setting up a bass array with only 8 cabs that way simply by estimation is a bit naive😀. nevertheless i was a nice job. people were happy. i have to learn more about different setups....
Hi Xoc1
yes we delayed the mainstacks 2ms for a wider splay. this was noticable better and did not cause any cancellations or negative effects when playing playback music. every bass stack had its own controller. we had also a main controller (BSS Minidrive from my companion) in the signalpath. i think it had been better to have 8 single points then 4 Pointe for a higher cut-off frequency...
yes we delayed the mainstacks 2ms for a wider splay. this was noticable better and did not cause any cancellations or negative effects when playing playback music. every bass stack had its own controller. we had also a main controller (BSS Minidrive from my companion) in the signalpath. i think it had been better to have 8 single points then 4 Pointe for a higher cut-off frequency...
Hi Zwiller
phase reverse had no remarkable effekt, we started with AKG and endet with Audix - allways the same strange behavior. i have to mention the kickdrum was weak and not well tuned because of the high daytime temperatures but the kick was generally better at other locations were we used the system in L/R setup (2 Subs per side)
phase reverse had no remarkable effekt, we started with AKG and endet with Audix - allways the same strange behavior. i have to mention the kickdrum was weak and not well tuned because of the high daytime temperatures but the kick was generally better at other locations were we used the system in L/R setup (2 Subs per side)
With the subs placed as in the photo, I'd expect there would be a ton of bass where the drum riser is located, even if it was quiet backstage.
You need to use frequency dependent noise gates on the kick drum and low toms to get any real "thump". Otherwise the LF enveloping the kit resonates the drum/head Helmholtz frequency, the PA amplifies the acoustic resonance, and it "runs away". It sounds like "regular" LF feedback, but EQ alone won't cure it.
The noise gate "opens" with the loudest sound (beater or stick) then closes, the gate frequency and envelope being user defined. Noise gates that are not frequency dependent are often not very useful, as drummers often tend to whack the snare louder than any other drum, which can cause multiple mics to open. With a properly gated kit, only one mic is open at a time, unless the drummer hits more than one thing at a time.
As far as Zwiller's suggestion of reversing the "phase" (it is polarity, not phase...) on the kick drum, that usually has little effect other than in the drum monitor at the drummer's position. The TH has a full wavelength of delay at the upper end of it's passband, switching polarity of the mic is six of one, a half dozen of another.
If you have no noise gates, switching polarity of half the drum mics will reduce shared "noise", but the reflective/resonant/ highly equalized environment of a reinforced kit makes it difficult to suss out without an extensive time period.
If the system itself has not been properly "dialed in" first, drum reinforcement can be a real exercise in "tail chasing" ;^).
Cheers,
Art
Cheers,
Art
Hi Art
Thank you! your reply makes sense and i'm happy about that even when i have to read it several times to fully understand it😜 (btw i'm happy about all the other replys too).
Of course i'm using noisegates, espacially bassdrums and toms have to be gated very exactly. but i never thought about frequency depending gating because it was'nt necessary before. what you are describing comes close to what i heard, a kind of feedback-like, howling (?) sound without the right punch. so if this will happen again i know what to do. the most digital consoles are able to tune the gates. i will check out this function (would be hard to train or simulate).
i have got the impression now bass arrays with horn subs seem to be much more sensitive than arrays with br-subs (i assume because of the given directivity). when using br-subs you can make nothing really wrong. but simillar to that sound is not bad and not good.
the most important thing at the end is: i love my THs and i go with them through this deep dark valley of life-long learning together until the bitter end (off topic)
Thank you! your reply makes sense and i'm happy about that even when i have to read it several times to fully understand it😜 (btw i'm happy about all the other replys too).
Of course i'm using noisegates, espacially bassdrums and toms have to be gated very exactly. but i never thought about frequency depending gating because it was'nt necessary before. what you are describing comes close to what i heard, a kind of feedback-like, howling (?) sound without the right punch. so if this will happen again i know what to do. the most digital consoles are able to tune the gates. i will check out this function (would be hard to train or simulate).
i have got the impression now bass arrays with horn subs seem to be much more sensitive than arrays with br-subs (i assume because of the given directivity). when using br-subs you can make nothing really wrong. but simillar to that sound is not bad and not good.
the most important thing at the end is: i love my THs and i go with them through this deep dark valley of life-long learning together until the bitter end (off topic)
The +6 dB sensitivity increase of a TH over a BR probably has a lot more to do with your live problems than the directivity difference which is quite a bit less than 6 dB.
if you compare a horn system with a br system at a level of 100dBspl at FOH i think the sensitivity of a single cab doesn't really matter. normally a hornsystem rather solves problems on stage than it causes problems because of the directivity. what i ment is having a horizontal "column" with omnidirectional sources must cause different lobes compared to a column with cardioid sources. am i wrong?
Just clarifying, phase of the mics is a non issue due to TH or fixed via digital XO? In my mind the signal is delayed but mics could still be out of phase with each other? That said, this is coming mostly from a recording mindset.
Bertl, curiosity got to the best of me since a gates like Art mentioned were serious bucks back when I ran a large rig and started looking for frequency dependent gates and I happened to stumble upon a post of Art's on another forum recommending the Behringer quad gate. Dirt cheap here. Hopefully same for you.
Bertl, curiosity got to the best of me since a gates like Art mentioned were serious bucks back when I ran a large rig and started looking for frequency dependent gates and I happened to stumble upon a post of Art's on another forum recommending the Behringer quad gate. Dirt cheap here. Hopefully same for you.