Soooo, it is finally in the system. The driver has been shelved for years, so I expect it will burn in again. The amp driving it is underpowered. So will clock some hours of burn in and will improve the amplification before I can seriously describe and review it
So far, though, it's already a great success. I let the AV receiver do its Audyssey autoEQ thing to integrate the BiB. My daughters and my wife did not immediately notice anything different, but commented that the music suddenly had more rhythm and drive. I can't phrase it any better, actually.
Looking forward to some more burn in and more amplifier power! And some frequency response measurements.
So far, though, it's already a great success. I let the AV receiver do its Audyssey autoEQ thing to integrate the BiB. My daughters and my wife did not immediately notice anything different, but commented that the music suddenly had more rhythm and drive. I can't phrase it any better, actually.
Looking forward to some more burn in and more amplifier power! And some frequency response measurements.
I have been slowly chipping away at this threat, very informative.
I was looking for some guidance on choosing an fs for a build. I'm planning on using the Dayton Audio PS-180 6.5" FR driver.
Fs 58.5
Vas 28L
Qts. .33
I did a practice run BIB build with a Visaton FR-10
Fs 90
Vas 2.29
Qts .67
I was very suprised and pleased with the amount of bass, and the width of the range. So I decided to build a bigger one with a higher quality driver to use as my main listening speakers.
Back to the Daytons, I have seen it suggested here that tuning below fs is a good idea in some situations, I'm wanting to tune this as low as I can while keeping the wide base range. How low would someone with a few builds under their belt suggest pushing the limit. I'm looking at an fs in the range of 48- 58.5 Hz.
A few things;
I have been doing the dimentional calculations witht the BIB Calculator Ver. 2
My ceiling is way to high to load off of ( 18+ feet)
Frequency range of driver per Dayton website is 48-25k
48 hz is the lowest I can go while leaving room for the back of the driver to clear the center divider
What might be the pros and cons of an fs choice in the 48-58.5 range,
Thanks
I was looking for some guidance on choosing an fs for a build. I'm planning on using the Dayton Audio PS-180 6.5" FR driver.
Fs 58.5
Vas 28L
Qts. .33
I did a practice run BIB build with a Visaton FR-10
Fs 90
Vas 2.29
Qts .67
I was very suprised and pleased with the amount of bass, and the width of the range. So I decided to build a bigger one with a higher quality driver to use as my main listening speakers.
Back to the Daytons, I have seen it suggested here that tuning below fs is a good idea in some situations, I'm wanting to tune this as low as I can while keeping the wide base range. How low would someone with a few builds under their belt suggest pushing the limit. I'm looking at an fs in the range of 48- 58.5 Hz.
A few things;
I have been doing the dimentional calculations witht the BIB Calculator Ver. 2
My ceiling is way to high to load off of ( 18+ feet)
Frequency range of driver per Dayton website is 48-25k
48 hz is the lowest I can go while leaving room for the back of the driver to clear the center divider
What might be the pros and cons of an fs choice in the 48-58.5 range,
Thanks
The BIB excel-sheet calculates an alignment of a pipe horn that is proven to work and has a practical and historical basis. But there isn't a hard border around that alignment, it doesn't stop being a BIB or a viable pipe horn when you step a bit left or right if its results. So firstly, there is no pressing reason why you shouldn't go a bit higher or lower than what the excel-sheet dictates.
If the depth of the cabinet becomes an issue, you can double up the baffle, the driver will protrude into the interior less. Just remember to chamfer the cutout enough to prevent reflections. You can also change the aspect ratio of the cabinet a bit. The chosen aspect ratio of the Excel-sheet is deliberately chosen for best performance/guiding sound waves through the bend, but it still works if you deviate a bit.
BIBs are half wavelength pipe horns, when you base your calculations on Fs of the driver, the poor is tuned to half that. Driver Fs is 58.5Hz, which would give a 28-ish Hz cut off. It is recommended to not go lower than about 0.7 times driver Fs, which would be 40.95Hz, giving 20.5-ish Herz.
I have tuned BIBs to that 0.7*Fs and to 2*Fs and both scenarios made for loudspeakers with excellent bass, so I think it's more important what you want our of this. My BIBs have always been my main loudspeakers in our living room. We listen to pop music, reggae, chamber music, large symphonic orchestra music, we watch movies, watch the news etc. BIBs with a 40Hz cut off (so based on an 80Hz tuning frequency in the excel-sheet) were absolutely adequate for pop and reggae and watching the news. I really found them lacking for movies and symphonic music.
I'd go as low as you can. 😇
Meanwhile, my tangband W69-1042 bib is hard to judge. It is running up to 200Hz. When I switch off its amp, a huge chunk of the sound is missing, it is doing a lot. Yet when it is turned on, you'd never guess there was a separate bass system or crossover in the system. It is a very fine and subtle device in that regard. And it alleviates the "satellites" of a lot of work and that is very audible as well.
I opened one up to see what's inside and see if I could maybe fit another driver in there. The other driver didn't fit, but check out this vintage gem! I suspect its frequency response is a little too rough for my AV receiver's auto EQ (Audyssey) to handle. It sounds good, with hints of brilliance and also hints of.... hmmmm not brilliance but the feeling that it's correctable. Perhaps time to do some dedicated filtering on it.
Anyway, the BIB is in a certain location and it's clearly not the best place for it. My other bass BIBs where in another corner, which gave less seat to seat variance and a response that was overall less affected by room modes. It sounds really good at some places, but obviously nowhere near a listening position. I want to move it, but my wife remembers how adding a second subwoofer years ago improved sound tremendously, so she says I should just build another for the other corner. 🥰
I am very seriously considering that, but am uninspired to do any measurements while it's in its current location. I also think it sounds kind of tame compared to earlier experiences with this driver and back then I was using a much more capable amp. So there is some switching and of components to do before I decide if it is a big success.
Well, that very fine crossoverless sound while crossing at 200Hz, with a single bass cabinet, is a very big success. I love that.
I opened one up to see what's inside and see if I could maybe fit another driver in there. The other driver didn't fit, but check out this vintage gem! I suspect its frequency response is a little too rough for my AV receiver's auto EQ (Audyssey) to handle. It sounds good, with hints of brilliance and also hints of.... hmmmm not brilliance but the feeling that it's correctable. Perhaps time to do some dedicated filtering on it.
Anyway, the BIB is in a certain location and it's clearly not the best place for it. My other bass BIBs where in another corner, which gave less seat to seat variance and a response that was overall less affected by room modes. It sounds really good at some places, but obviously nowhere near a listening position. I want to move it, but my wife remembers how adding a second subwoofer years ago improved sound tremendously, so she says I should just build another for the other corner. 🥰
I am very seriously considering that, but am uninspired to do any measurements while it's in its current location. I also think it sounds kind of tame compared to earlier experiences with this driver and back then I was using a much more capable amp. So there is some switching and of components to do before I decide if it is a big success.
Well, that very fine crossoverless sound while crossing at 200Hz, with a single bass cabinet, is a very big success. I love that.
I’ve had a set by the same maker. The dustcap is a bit mesmerizing.
REmind me of the maker?
dave
REmind me of the maker?
dave
Hi everyone,
Just wanted to share my own experiences with BiB enclosures.
I'm on my third now, first with Audio Nirvana Super 8s, then on to Fostex 166en, and now Fostex fe168 sigma.
Each has been an upgrade on the last, with never having owned a good set of manufactured speakers, I began to wonder was I missing out on something, so I bought the Wharfedales. They have a solid reputation and I thought that they would be a good candidate to measure how the Bib compare.
When compared to the 166en cabinets, the Wharfedales were noticeably better in the mid range, but I found that they needed a bit of volume for the bass to come alive. I also noticed that the 3d/holographic sound from the BiBs disappeared completely, and that feeling of sound effortlessly filling the room.
Mostly due to DMason extoling the virtues of the fe168 sigma, I took the plunge and built another set of cabinets. Ive been listening for an hour or so, and I know these drivers take a while to break in but so far I am more than impressed. Vocals are several notches above the Wharfedales and the outgoing 166en cabinets. That huge soundstage is back and even at low volumes sound just fills the room.
Construction was from WBP plywood, the last cabinets I made were from marine ply but its doubled in price, and I wanted to double skin them so stuck with regular WBP. I just used the dimensions that the BiB calculator provided, rounded up to the nearest sensible number so as not to give myself a headache working it all out.
I got the wood cut at the DIY store (B&Q) then glued and screwed together and cut the hole for the drivers on a trim router. Then a few coats of Zinsser Shellac, and finally two coats of Annie Sloan chalk paint, then wax. With them being double skinned, they are heavy, about 70kg each.
The Wharfedales are going up for sale, I have a large smile on my face and I cant wait to hear how these speakers sound as the drivers break in.
I want to say thank you so much to everyone who has contributed to this thread for sharing your knowledge and experience on these cabinets/drivers 🙂
Just wanted to share my own experiences with BiB enclosures.
I'm on my third now, first with Audio Nirvana Super 8s, then on to Fostex 166en, and now Fostex fe168 sigma.
Each has been an upgrade on the last, with never having owned a good set of manufactured speakers, I began to wonder was I missing out on something, so I bought the Wharfedales. They have a solid reputation and I thought that they would be a good candidate to measure how the Bib compare.
When compared to the 166en cabinets, the Wharfedales were noticeably better in the mid range, but I found that they needed a bit of volume for the bass to come alive. I also noticed that the 3d/holographic sound from the BiBs disappeared completely, and that feeling of sound effortlessly filling the room.
Mostly due to DMason extoling the virtues of the fe168 sigma, I took the plunge and built another set of cabinets. Ive been listening for an hour or so, and I know these drivers take a while to break in but so far I am more than impressed. Vocals are several notches above the Wharfedales and the outgoing 166en cabinets. That huge soundstage is back and even at low volumes sound just fills the room.
Construction was from WBP plywood, the last cabinets I made were from marine ply but its doubled in price, and I wanted to double skin them so stuck with regular WBP. I just used the dimensions that the BiB calculator provided, rounded up to the nearest sensible number so as not to give myself a headache working it all out.
I got the wood cut at the DIY store (B&Q) then glued and screwed together and cut the hole for the drivers on a trim router. Then a few coats of Zinsser Shellac, and finally two coats of Annie Sloan chalk paint, then wax. With them being double skinned, they are heavy, about 70kg each.
The Wharfedales are going up for sale, I have a large smile on my face and I cant wait to hear how these speakers sound as the drivers break in.
I want to say thank you so much to everyone who has contributed to this thread for sharing your knowledge and experience on these cabinets/drivers 🙂
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I like the look of those BIBs, fits into the very nice music room as well. I´d love to listen to music and read a book there. 😎
Thanks Ivo, they took a fair bit of prep to fill the screw holes/sand/paint, but I think it has been worth it.
Everyone comments on the size of BiB's but to me they look just right. The actual footprint is not much bigger than most floorstanders, and they can fill what would be an otherwise empty corner with an impressive looking loudspeaker.
Everyone comments on the size of BiB's but to me they look just right. The actual footprint is not much bigger than most floorstanders, and they can fill what would be an otherwise empty corner with an impressive looking loudspeaker.
Absolutely. My wife says they are visually "more calm" than normal speakers, because they present one object, instead of stands, little boxes, wires, etc.
My thoughts exactly! Since they occupy the same amount of floorspace, why not go high?
My dream is to have a pair of BIBs with mahogany veneer + french polish.
But for that, I probably have to build a new pair of BIBs because the current ones are made of very thick MDF, so they weigh a ton. If I had to guess, easily 90kg/190lbs with ease.
Yes, N501-8A with a 1.0 uF? bypass cap to let the highs through since even with the very efficient 515Bs the horns still need enough shelving to roll off much of the 511's HF, so 1st order to level them out to ~22 kHz in theory, though while never having the necessary hearing/equipment to confirm, one young woman that could perceive a neighbor's dog whistle said there was 'something' up there even though never had any recording that went anywhere near this high during her time, so assume the then all tube McIntosh system probably had plenty of electronic 'color'. 😉
No, all but a couple I did were corner, end loaded cardboard 'tube within tube' based for others, which were just my sonic cannon subs for behind/under the seating area. Did do a couple of BIB type folded designs when a coworker showed me a horizontal console on legs and another that was built into the floor, but the BIB was 'zilla's 'baby'; I just adapted a very simple design routine I'd been given back in my early days when I only had an Fs spec to make sure it was big enough to be easily tuned.
So I got a Fosi Audio ZA3 amplifier to power my bass. It's class D and chip based. It has good measured performance and is pretty cheap. While it does not have a bridged mode, it does have a mode that uses all power for a single channel, which is supposedly a mode with noticeable benefits. This has made the difference I expected. It's much more dynamic and cleaner now. It was no slouch, it's very good now. My favourite experience was subsonic organ pedal tones. Not my regular testing material, it was on an album I was listening for the first time. Pulsating pressure. Absolutely no hint of anything other than an organ pipe making vibrations (no cabinet noises, no distortion).
This is a single 8 inch woofer. It's doing better than a BIB with a 12 inch woofer I had before. I think it's a very fortuitous combination of a fairly capable woofer and a slim BIB cabinet that is naturally resistant to cabinet resonances.
Family life is pretty crazy at the moment and I don't find time and energy to pull out the measurement gear. I really should. I really want to share this design, but want to share measured response as well.
I have four of these drivers. I am thinking about whether I want to build another one with a single unit, or perhaps create a dual driver BIB and build a pair of those. BIBs can obviously benefit from additional drivers at different positions along the pipe, but that would automatically mean giving up the tight and simple enclosure. And if one is stunning, two would already be superlative I guess.
This is a single 8 inch woofer. It's doing better than a BIB with a 12 inch woofer I had before. I think it's a very fortuitous combination of a fairly capable woofer and a slim BIB cabinet that is naturally resistant to cabinet resonances.
Family life is pretty crazy at the moment and I don't find time and energy to pull out the measurement gear. I really should. I really want to share this design, but want to share measured response as well.
I have four of these drivers. I am thinking about whether I want to build another one with a single unit, or perhaps create a dual driver BIB and build a pair of those. BIBs can obviously benefit from additional drivers at different positions along the pipe, but that would automatically mean giving up the tight and simple enclosure. And if one is stunning, two would already be superlative I guess.
Ivo,
My understanding is that for 2x of the same drivers in a BiB, you will need to double the cabinet volume; that can be achieved by something as simple as making the cabinet depth 2x vs earlier. So for example if the cabinet (internal) depth was 200 cm earlier, and the internal slant (divider) was aligned to the mid-point of that, then we had 100 cm on each side of the end of the slant. The new cabinet would have an internal depth of 400 cm and there would be 200 cm on each side of the slant.
The drivers should be placed on either side of the center point of the single driver, as close as possible to each other.
GM and Scott would be able to give you more sage advice. 🙂
My understanding is that for 2x of the same drivers in a BiB, you will need to double the cabinet volume; that can be achieved by something as simple as making the cabinet depth 2x vs earlier. So for example if the cabinet (internal) depth was 200 cm earlier, and the internal slant (divider) was aligned to the mid-point of that, then we had 100 cm on each side of the end of the slant. The new cabinet would have an internal depth of 400 cm and there would be 200 cm on each side of the slant.
The drivers should be placed on either side of the center point of the single driver, as close as possible to each other.
GM and Scott would be able to give you more sage advice. 🙂