DIM said:
Why bipolar?
I have used "omnipolar" from Mirage
( still have an OM-9 system with BPS sub in the living room ) and i still consider a dipole OB system superior in terms of clarity ..
what is it in Bipolar that makes you want to build a system ?
What other options do we have with truncated faceplates?
Would an MTM "Array" help getting better mids?
or it would be ofset by the comb/distortion of the 2 mids?
JinMTVT said:
To take your questions in order:
1. "how does the CSS unit performs compared to the high end stuff?"
The CSS unit performs good compared to the high end stuff. Probably 'cuz it "IS" high end stuff.
It has a patented motor design that results in improved sound and perhaps even better, makes it easier to work with (it bein' reel linear an' stuff).
2. "do you know where are the CSS unit made?"
Sure do!
Also know the guy that sells 'em and the guy that designed 'em. I even got to touch the keyboard of the computer that they were designed on. It was a spiritual moment.
Now to get serious, you've gotten some very good advice based on a fair amount of experience. It appears that there is only a certain line of thought that you're interested in and a majority of the advice is being ignored.
I happen to think that Stingray69's post (#27?) was excellent advice, well worthy of consideration.
I may be wrong, but you seem to be greatly influenced by price and name brand familarity, neither of which is a reliable guide to anything remotely associated with good sound.
YMMV (and probably will),
TerryO
TerryO said:
you are fortunatly wrong and right! 😛
i am influenced by brand names, especially when they have been designing and making high-end drivers for 25yeasr + and are still in buisness, wich shows a good deal of base quality products
( usually once you are deceived by quality or performance of a certain brand product, you don't run and buy from then again correct? )
But then, if i were only to buy because of the brands, i wouldn't have got into this forum in the first place ...
I was only considering SEAS Excel lineup before i started this post ..
now i am considering the Skaaning mid, Accuton twits, adire/CSS mid and more ...
i am taking all the suggestions seriously
the only problem i have so far is that i lack sooo much knowledge about all there is around
( crossovers, final spl control, phase, dispertion balbala..)
that it is very hard to even imagine what a combination of drivers would do as final result
i do not believe that the price of an item only, makes for it's performance ...but usually with high end everything gets expensive fast!
Look at the accuton D(iamond) twit
is it worth 2600$ ?? probably because diamonds are damn expensive
is it that much better than the best regular tweets out there at <300$??
probably not 2300$ better ! 😛
What i am torn between now is to consider
using some cheaper mids , just liek the CSS,
in array ..or at least 2 on each side
or using only 1 mid of higher quality( price) on each side
but again, how can we compare lets say the Skaaning
18cm to the CSS 4.5" driver?
it is hard to determine wich will give the best results
But neway, i wanted to do once, a 2 way 2 drivers
high end components, should i just stick with the Skaaning mid + accuton ceramic tweet ?
To Curmudgeon.
My project is ready on 75%.
It's bipolar WwmtmwW wiht Scan Speak 26W, 18W, 12M and ringrads. I will try around 20 Hz (-3).
My budget is not limited and i have no problem wiht woodworking.
😉
My project is ready on 75%.
It's bipolar WwmtmwW wiht Scan Speak 26W, 18W, 12M and ringrads. I will try around 20 Hz (-3).
My budget is not limited and i have no problem wiht woodworking.
😉
DIM, I'm not sure how to answer. I have not tried any of the recent Scanspeak Revelator mids, so I can't compare them with the Skaaning. And I have no experience with bi/dipolar designs.
It's expensive, but you might try buying one each, or if necessary a pair, to evaluate yourself. For evaluation, I put listening first, and waterfall measurements next, in importance.
Crossover components, diffraction control, suppression of cone breakup, wiring and associated equipment can easily make a larger difference than the differences between two very good drivers of similar type.
It's expensive, but you might try buying one each, or if necessary a pair, to evaluate yourself. For evaluation, I put listening first, and waterfall measurements next, in importance.
Crossover components, diffraction control, suppression of cone breakup, wiring and associated equipment can easily make a larger difference than the differences between two very good drivers of similar type.
I have Scan Speak drivers, but I have no Flexunit drivers.
Whether it is necessary to get them?😉
Whether it is necessary to get them?😉
Goofed, xo freq is 4 kHz.
The link to the price page is in post 16.
Skaaning site for the main site.
And for the record, memory cog slipped, and the 15H/9900 xo is 3.95 kHz, not 5 as I put in previous post.
The link to the price page is in post 16.
Skaaning site for the main site.
And for the record, memory cog slipped, and the 15H/9900 xo is 3.95 kHz, not 5 as I put in previous post.
ok
after extensive reading
i don't see why i would be settling for anything else than the :
Vifa D26NC55
it has near perfect response time
it's almost perfectly linear ( easy to do 2nd order since it goes up a bit in the 6K + range )
and it costs like 30$USD ??
why does everybody only thinks of the $$$ units
this unit has alot less distortion on all orders compared to the expensive Accuton and Seas units ...
still not setup for the mid though .. i need to cross the Vifa at about 2.5-3K
after extensive reading
i don't see why i would be settling for anything else than the :
Vifa D26NC55
it has near perfect response time
it's almost perfectly linear ( easy to do 2nd order since it goes up a bit in the 6K + range )
and it costs like 30$USD ??
why does everybody only thinks of the $$$ units
this unit has alot less distortion on all orders compared to the expensive Accuton and Seas units ...
still not setup for the mid though .. i need to cross the Vifa at about 2.5-3K
There are some things that can add to cost that may not affect distortion measurements. Sensitivity, xmax, and product consistency come to mind. And an awkward thing is that correlation between the sound and measurements is not always straightforward. I find that waterfall (spectral decay) measurements are the most useful predictors of sound, but certainly not the only ones to consider. The driver business is very competitive, and price usually matches quality, although Asian drivers and currency changes are modifying that.
With all that said, the Vifa sounds as if it might be a good fit with your needs; and there are several mid suggestions above that are worth investigating.
With all that said, the Vifa sounds as if it might be a good fit with your needs; and there are several mid suggestions above that are worth investigating.
i agree that decay is a direct comparison of quality
of the sound..as distortion and rining is easy to compare directly
look at this page :
http://www.zaphaudio.com/tweetermishmash/csd.html
Vifa D26NC55
tell me what you think VS the other..
it seems like this particular tweeter he tested had one of the best possible decay for a dome ..
for the mids i would very like to see distortion measurements for the Skaaning
and CSD
🙂
of the sound..as distortion and rining is easy to compare directly
look at this page :
http://www.zaphaudio.com/tweetermishmash/csd.html
Vifa D26NC55
tell me what you think VS the other..
it seems like this particular tweeter he tested had one of the best possible decay for a dome ..
for the mids i would very like to see distortion measurements for the Skaaning
and CSD
🙂
Hah, it had been a while since I visited that site. Good to revisit. The D26NC55 curves are very very nice, especially when considering the price. Not only is decay good, but the 3rd harmonic distortion is <-70, and would tend to be masked by the 2nd which is a bit higher. (2nd tends to be a bit euphonic, 3rd, 5th, 7th are increasingly discordant).
I have not seen Skaaning curves. And, actually, based on our results, the curves would only be of academic interest to us. It does everything exceedingly well, but at a high price both for itself and the required associated equipment, xo and electronic and development effort. Not at all suitable for a first (or second) project.
I have not seen Skaaning curves. And, actually, based on our results, the curves would only be of academic interest to us. It does everything exceedingly well, but at a high price both for itself and the required associated equipment, xo and electronic and development effort. Not at all suitable for a first (or second) project.
ok
yes of course considering the price, this particular Vifa unit is quite intriguing ..at that price point, one cannot regret its purchase i believe ..
For the important mid section, i am torned between the upper seas, S-Speak and the Skaaning options ...
I'd very like to see distortion # and CSD for this driver
( 18cm would be a good choice ? )
From what i have seen soo far, more distortion is to be had with mid woofers than wich tweeters ?
is this the norm ?
All the units i am considering are of near 200$USD or more each driver ...
Why do you say that designing the correct crossover for the Skaaning units is harder ?? interested to know why!
I will also have to see what i can get from TR.CA
local driver manufacturer ....they told melast time that they would built my 4 15"woofers custom for my application ( well derived from a model they offer of course, but since i want to make a "ripole" type of system, their PA parameters doesn't quite excite me😛)
If i'd know that the 15" would have a very good definition up to 200hz ..that would leave me more choices of smaller mid-woofer and i could cover from 2-300 up to 3K with the one driver
what is the frequency band covered from mid bass to high-mids that is the most important to get the least distortion ??
i read and was told that 300-2500hz is the correct range
that our ears will ear the most details ( distortion and loudness variations ) from ..is this correct?
if not..what is then 🙂
yes of course considering the price, this particular Vifa unit is quite intriguing ..at that price point, one cannot regret its purchase i believe ..
For the important mid section, i am torned between the upper seas, S-Speak and the Skaaning options ...
I'd very like to see distortion # and CSD for this driver
( 18cm would be a good choice ? )
From what i have seen soo far, more distortion is to be had with mid woofers than wich tweeters ?
is this the norm ?
All the units i am considering are of near 200$USD or more each driver ...
Why do you say that designing the correct crossover for the Skaaning units is harder ?? interested to know why!
I will also have to see what i can get from TR.CA
local driver manufacturer ....they told melast time that they would built my 4 15"woofers custom for my application ( well derived from a model they offer of course, but since i want to make a "ripole" type of system, their PA parameters doesn't quite excite me😛)
If i'd know that the 15" would have a very good definition up to 200hz ..that would leave me more choices of smaller mid-woofer and i could cover from 2-300 up to 3K with the one driver
what is the frequency band covered from mid bass to high-mids that is the most important to get the least distortion ??
i read and was told that 300-2500hz is the correct range
that our ears will ear the most details ( distortion and loudness variations ) from ..is this correct?
if not..what is then 🙂
JinMTVT-
If you have not found it yet, Zaph has several 5.5" drivers measured here:
http://www.zaphaudio.com/5.5test/
Also, here he has tested the CSS driver:
http://www.zaphaudio.com/4.5test/
In your original post, you said you will only have this mid+tweeeter combo for about 1 year. Why are you spending so much $$ on the mids?
I hope you like the Vifa. For ~$30, I don't think you can go wrong. Someone may want to chim in here, but with Vifa's 1,500 Hz Fs, you will want to cross it to the midrange no lower then 3,000 Hz or so. This should be considered with selecting the midrange.
If you have not found it yet, Zaph has several 5.5" drivers measured here:
http://www.zaphaudio.com/5.5test/
Also, here he has tested the CSS driver:
http://www.zaphaudio.com/4.5test/
In your original post, you said you will only have this mid+tweeeter combo for about 1 year. Why are you spending so much $$ on the mids?
I hope you like the Vifa. For ~$30, I don't think you can go wrong. Someone may want to chim in here, but with Vifa's 1,500 Hz Fs, you will want to cross it to the midrange no lower then 3,000 Hz or so. This should be considered with selecting the midrange.
Stingray i thank you again for the suggestions 🙂
I wasn't going to cross the VIFA anything under 3k neway , looking at the HD graphs makes me fear 1-2K on that tweeter 😛
Then i don't really like the CSS unit unfortunatly,
i fear that it doesn't deliver whats needed in the 200-500hz range quality ...
This is of course a temporary setup for my room
but it won't go unused after that
and who knows how long i will be using it neway
and yes i have seen the Zaph reviews of the mid drivers,
i have in fact gone through all of his website pages,
including his personal rants 😛
i will take some time to analyse the mid requirements for my system ..
One thing though that i will question myself on ..
if my tweeter is going to be lets say 90db efficient
( 1W/1M thing .. )
how do i match up the mid spl ??
how do i know that i will end up with matched volume?
cause all the mid i look at are in the 82-86db range ..
is there a way to predict and choose?
will i need 2 mids for 1 tweeter? this would create other problems wouldn't it ?
I wasn't going to cross the VIFA anything under 3k neway , looking at the HD graphs makes me fear 1-2K on that tweeter 😛
Then i don't really like the CSS unit unfortunatly,
i fear that it doesn't deliver whats needed in the 200-500hz range quality ...
This is of course a temporary setup for my room
but it won't go unused after that
and who knows how long i will be using it neway
and yes i have seen the Zaph reviews of the mid drivers,
i have in fact gone through all of his website pages,
including his personal rants 😛
i will take some time to analyse the mid requirements for my system ..
One thing though that i will question myself on ..
if my tweeter is going to be lets say 90db efficient
( 1W/1M thing .. )
how do i match up the mid spl ??
how do i know that i will end up with matched volume?
cause all the mid i look at are in the 82-86db range ..
is there a way to predict and choose?
will i need 2 mids for 1 tweeter? this would create other problems wouldn't it ?
I'd very like to see distortion # and CSD for this driver
( 18cm would be a good choice ? ) I prefer to use a small mid, but then the low end requirement requires a very good driver to handle the excursion; and/or a woofer with good midrange characteristics. You have to consider the drivers as a group.
From what i have seen soo far, more distortion is to be had with mid woofers than wich tweeters ?
is this the norm ? Yes, tweeters cover 3 octaves typically, mids 4 or more. Low mid has substantial cone travel, and the 125-250 Hz range often has the highest power requirements.
All the units i am considering are of near 200$USD or more each driver ...
Why do you say that designing the correct crossover for the Skaaning units is harder ?? interested to know why! The crossover is not more difficult to design for frequency response, in fact it's easier than most since the driver is so well behaved. But it does need careful component selection; we have a couple of silver coils, and the 100 uF metallized polyprop we use could be Al foil or better yet, tin, but that's a bit pricey for us. We use Mills resistors, Multicap and North Creek caps. The silver Alpha-Goerz coils have been discontinued. We hand wound a couple of silver coils too. And with every component change, you need about 40 hours (more or less) breakin before evaluation. You have to have a very well known consistent set of test material. About the 20th time through the loop, you'll find aural memory improving. It seems to be trainable. Don't listen during the breakin period, for obvious reasons.
If i'd know that the 15" would have a very good definition up to 200hz ..that would leave me more choices of smaller mid-woofer and i could cover from 2-300 up to 3K with the one driver I'd wonder about the efficiency of the 4 woofers. Will your mid and tweet match? Padding woofers usually does not work out at all. Aside from that, we cross over at 200 and 3950 Hz. The 15H is quite happy doing that, and we use one 25W Scanspeak woofer, and the bass/lower mid region is outstanding.
what is the frequency band covered from mid bass to high-mids that is the most important to get the least distortion ??
i read and was told that 300-2500hz is the correct range
that our ears will ear the most details ( distortion and loudness variations ) from ..is this correct?
if not..what is then This is part of the system design. If the mid driver could do it, you'd want full range. It can't, but the range you can get from it depends on the driver and the associated drivers. I completely agree (again) with Stingray69 that 3kHz is about as low as that tweeter should be crossed over with lower order slopes. So the mid should be well behaved to 6 kHz or better. And any high freq ringing should be RLC trapped.
Stingray's question about why the cost for the midranges is well taken. Since this is your first design apparently, a more forgiving driver would be a better place to start.
I hope this helps.
Edit; Obviously we crossed over. Most mids do pretty well on the low end, it's the easy part. Problems in the 1.5-3 or 4kHz range are much more audible and disagreeable.
More Edit; you can attenuate the tweeter without any problems. I'm more concerned with woofer/mid sensitivity issues. Bi-amping is one way around the issue, but gets expensive.
( 18cm would be a good choice ? ) I prefer to use a small mid, but then the low end requirement requires a very good driver to handle the excursion; and/or a woofer with good midrange characteristics. You have to consider the drivers as a group.
From what i have seen soo far, more distortion is to be had with mid woofers than wich tweeters ?
is this the norm ? Yes, tweeters cover 3 octaves typically, mids 4 or more. Low mid has substantial cone travel, and the 125-250 Hz range often has the highest power requirements.
All the units i am considering are of near 200$USD or more each driver ...
Why do you say that designing the correct crossover for the Skaaning units is harder ?? interested to know why! The crossover is not more difficult to design for frequency response, in fact it's easier than most since the driver is so well behaved. But it does need careful component selection; we have a couple of silver coils, and the 100 uF metallized polyprop we use could be Al foil or better yet, tin, but that's a bit pricey for us. We use Mills resistors, Multicap and North Creek caps. The silver Alpha-Goerz coils have been discontinued. We hand wound a couple of silver coils too. And with every component change, you need about 40 hours (more or less) breakin before evaluation. You have to have a very well known consistent set of test material. About the 20th time through the loop, you'll find aural memory improving. It seems to be trainable. Don't listen during the breakin period, for obvious reasons.
If i'd know that the 15" would have a very good definition up to 200hz ..that would leave me more choices of smaller mid-woofer and i could cover from 2-300 up to 3K with the one driver I'd wonder about the efficiency of the 4 woofers. Will your mid and tweet match? Padding woofers usually does not work out at all. Aside from that, we cross over at 200 and 3950 Hz. The 15H is quite happy doing that, and we use one 25W Scanspeak woofer, and the bass/lower mid region is outstanding.
what is the frequency band covered from mid bass to high-mids that is the most important to get the least distortion ??
i read and was told that 300-2500hz is the correct range
that our ears will ear the most details ( distortion and loudness variations ) from ..is this correct?
if not..what is then This is part of the system design. If the mid driver could do it, you'd want full range. It can't, but the range you can get from it depends on the driver and the associated drivers. I completely agree (again) with Stingray69 that 3kHz is about as low as that tweeter should be crossed over with lower order slopes. So the mid should be well behaved to 6 kHz or better. And any high freq ringing should be RLC trapped.
Stingray's question about why the cost for the midranges is well taken. Since this is your first design apparently, a more forgiving driver would be a better place to start.
I hope this helps.
Edit; Obviously we crossed over. Most mids do pretty well on the low end, it's the easy part. Problems in the 1.5-3 or 4kHz range are much more audible and disagreeable.
More Edit; you can attenuate the tweeter without any problems. I'm more concerned with woofer/mid sensitivity issues. Bi-amping is one way around the issue, but gets expensive.
ok
thanks again for your time Curm...
This is not my first project at all
i have done severla loudpseaker system
most of them were full rangers, thus were "easier"
for a beginner ( well..full ranger + a sub to cover low range )
i have also done quite a few electronic projects
( diy RAKK dac , diy headphone amps, cables, interconnects ... ) but not muhc more than that
The woofers will be amped separatly of course
and i will have total control over phase,volume and crossover for them ..
Getting back to the MT system i amlooking for now..
I don't think that uysing "cheaper" components would be easier, becasue it will mean harder decisions on the crossover .... if the unit performs better with lower distortion all around i will have alot more choices for crossover points nah ?
Then i did not start the DIY audio a few years beack becasue i was looking for ordindairy performance
i started this and i am intested in it because i am a music listener, performance oriented person ..and i want my systems to perform the best possible ( within my personall limitations ) so i will just not settle for lower quality components !
I was about to buy 2 MANGERS units 2 months back,
when i got the update that their prices had almost doubled, wich is the only reason why i dind't get em 🙁
i will also have to get information on crossover building, since i have only soo smal experience in doing those
gotta work ..laterz. .
thanks again for your time Curm...
This is not my first project at all
i have done severla loudpseaker system
most of them were full rangers, thus were "easier"
for a beginner ( well..full ranger + a sub to cover low range )
i have also done quite a few electronic projects
( diy RAKK dac , diy headphone amps, cables, interconnects ... ) but not muhc more than that
The woofers will be amped separatly of course
and i will have total control over phase,volume and crossover for them ..
Getting back to the MT system i amlooking for now..
I don't think that uysing "cheaper" components would be easier, becasue it will mean harder decisions on the crossover .... if the unit performs better with lower distortion all around i will have alot more choices for crossover points nah ?
Then i did not start the DIY audio a few years beack becasue i was looking for ordindairy performance
i started this and i am intested in it because i am a music listener, performance oriented person ..and i want my systems to perform the best possible ( within my personall limitations ) so i will just not settle for lower quality components !
I was about to buy 2 MANGERS units 2 months back,
when i got the update that their prices had almost doubled, wich is the only reason why i dind't get em 🙁
i will also have to get information on crossover building, since i have only soo smal experience in doing those
gotta work ..laterz. .
ATC mid is still the dogs danglies for midrange.
Just a shame they cost so much. I miss mine.
About the Manger's I'll be flogging the single one I have very shortly in classifieds. If your scared of XO's then its certainly an easy driver to get great results with. You do need to think about the box construction though.
Just a shame they cost so much. I miss mine.
About the Manger's I'll be flogging the single one I have very shortly in classifieds. If your scared of XO's then its certainly an easy driver to get great results with. You do need to think about the box construction though.
ShinOBIWAN said:
OH SHinomasta ,
and what if there is no box?🙄
Please explain "the dogs danglies" ???
Will you ever stop talking in strange language ...??😀
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