Tested a Beyma driver, and it all looks good.
The Faital units have a slightly different cutout and bolt pattern, so that's something to be careful of further down the line. After a bit of messing around with foam strips and holding the driver in place, the Beyma unit also reports a 40Hz tuning frequency and gives a slightly sloping response from 100Hz down to 40Hz. The peakiness around 160Hz looks similar to the Faitals, too, so I'm confident these cabinets can be used interchangably.
Since I'm now in a residential area and share a wall with next door, I can't do any high-power testing. The last round showed that the amplifier clips before the port compressed, and I'm willing to bet performance will be similar for this cabinet since the two are quite similar.
So, without much further ado, I'll be off out to acquire many pieces of wood. Let the good times roll.
Chris
The Faital units have a slightly different cutout and bolt pattern, so that's something to be careful of further down the line. After a bit of messing around with foam strips and holding the driver in place, the Beyma unit also reports a 40Hz tuning frequency and gives a slightly sloping response from 100Hz down to 40Hz. The peakiness around 160Hz looks similar to the Faitals, too, so I'm confident these cabinets can be used interchangably.
Since I'm now in a residential area and share a wall with next door, I can't do any high-power testing. The last round showed that the amplifier clips before the port compressed, and I'm willing to bet performance will be similar for this cabinet since the two are quite similar.
So, without much further ado, I'll be off out to acquire many pieces of wood. Let the good times roll.
Chris
Next door went out, so I took the Faital-loaded cabinet and an NU6000DSP outside.
Processing to get the cabinet within a 3dB window from 38Hz-170Hz:
38Hz +6dB Q=1
160Hz -6dB Q=1
HPF: Butterworth 24dB/oct, 35Hz
LPF: Linkwitz-Riley 24dB/oct, 160Hz (seems to be what integrates well with the main speakers)
There's a deep notch around 180Hz, but other than that they're pretty flat as the port's lowpass filter kicks in and you're left with the driver's direct-radiating behaviour.
Since I seem to have misplaced my SPL meter, I had to do a bit of a work-around involving my phone and a Zoom recorder.
I played pink noise with the recorder going and got a reading of 90dB on my phone (at that sort of SPL, it's within a couple of dB of my meter). Keeping recording, I increased power until the amp clipped. The difference in recorded volume between those parts is 35dB.
So, with an NU6000DSP and the above processing, I can get around 125dB of bandwidth-limited pink noise.
By eye, cone excursion looked fairly controlled, and certainly within Xmax. Factoring out the 6dB of boost around 38Hz, I'd guess that the excursion would increase since the amplifier would have more headroom where the port isn't so active. Even so, I expect the drivers would handle that just fine.
That'll be the last of the acoustical testing before I start to build.
I've taken a jigsaw to the cabinet to figure out where I'd like the handles to be. It looks like a handle on the top and sides would do nicely.
That's all for now.
Chris
Processing to get the cabinet within a 3dB window from 38Hz-170Hz:
38Hz +6dB Q=1
160Hz -6dB Q=1
HPF: Butterworth 24dB/oct, 35Hz
LPF: Linkwitz-Riley 24dB/oct, 160Hz (seems to be what integrates well with the main speakers)
There's a deep notch around 180Hz, but other than that they're pretty flat as the port's lowpass filter kicks in and you're left with the driver's direct-radiating behaviour.
Since I seem to have misplaced my SPL meter, I had to do a bit of a work-around involving my phone and a Zoom recorder.
I played pink noise with the recorder going and got a reading of 90dB on my phone (at that sort of SPL, it's within a couple of dB of my meter). Keeping recording, I increased power until the amp clipped. The difference in recorded volume between those parts is 35dB.
So, with an NU6000DSP and the above processing, I can get around 125dB of bandwidth-limited pink noise.
By eye, cone excursion looked fairly controlled, and certainly within Xmax. Factoring out the 6dB of boost around 38Hz, I'd guess that the excursion would increase since the amplifier would have more headroom where the port isn't so active. Even so, I expect the drivers would handle that just fine.
That'll be the last of the acoustical testing before I start to build.
I've taken a jigsaw to the cabinet to figure out where I'd like the handles to be. It looks like a handle on the top and sides would do nicely.
That's all for now.
Chris
Big pile of birch ply has arrived, so I'm getting started. I got all the wood cut up, and they did a nice job of it.
Things to do:
- Cut port parts - I asked them to do a single long strip that I'll cut up with angles where needed.
- Driver cutouts. Must remember four of each, and to match them up when I glue the layers together. Messing that up will be difficult to fix.
- Handles/speakOn panel cutouts & positioning.
- Glue, sand, stain.
There's a big gig on the 3rd of June that I'd like to have at least four of these done for. Possibly all eight if there's time.
Very excited!
Chris
Things to do:
- Cut port parts - I asked them to do a single long strip that I'll cut up with angles where needed.
- Driver cutouts. Must remember four of each, and to match them up when I glue the layers together. Messing that up will be difficult to fix.
- Handles/speakOn panel cutouts & positioning.
- Glue, sand, stain.
There's a big gig on the 3rd of June that I'd like to have at least four of these done for. Possibly all eight if there's time.
Very excited!
Chris
Well, the first four are done. I did the Faital Pro drivers first so I could keep using the Beyma subs as they are.
All the impedance sweeps show tuning has come out bang on 40Hz, which is nice to see. With them all in parallel, impedance drops down to 1.2ohm in places, but stays above 1.7ohm for most of the range. The impedance dip around the port tuning seems to widen out with more in parallel, so there might be a little more extension on offer when used in large stacks.
Putting a little power in there, and I'm very impressed.
My quickly lashed together setup goes like this:
1x NU3000DSP, active crossover at 160Hz and a touch of EQ based on the earlier single cabinet measurements
4x subs on one channel. They're stacked vertically in the garage.
1x 8" coaxial on the other channel. Sat on top of the stack of subs.
Without lighting the -20dB light on the NU3000DSP, the back door is rattling. Hunter by Kaiju (the infamous 36Hz compressed sine track) comes through very well.
I'm going back over some dubstep, and this is pretty impressive. Doesn't seem like I'm missing much. The bottom note of Slam by Pendulum is good and powerful, and Tarantula also does quite well.
Running a quick polarity check (2Hz test tone) to make sure all the drivers were in-phase, I found out what people mean about the iNuke fans ramping up. I thought the amp was about to take flight. They can move a lot of air.
Happily, though, with the first light just coming on, they'll rattle bits of the house down to 28Hz. I don't think they'll take much power down there, but it's nice to know there's still something.
Tomorrow, they'll be playing outdoors for a few hundred people. An NU6000 will power all four, and I'm really looking forward to it. I'll try to get some photos.
After this weekend, there's another big festival mid-August. I'm hoping to have all eight of these cabinets done for then. Might even try a cardioid arrangement.
Chris
All the impedance sweeps show tuning has come out bang on 40Hz, which is nice to see. With them all in parallel, impedance drops down to 1.2ohm in places, but stays above 1.7ohm for most of the range. The impedance dip around the port tuning seems to widen out with more in parallel, so there might be a little more extension on offer when used in large stacks.
Putting a little power in there, and I'm very impressed.
My quickly lashed together setup goes like this:
1x NU3000DSP, active crossover at 160Hz and a touch of EQ based on the earlier single cabinet measurements
4x subs on one channel. They're stacked vertically in the garage.
1x 8" coaxial on the other channel. Sat on top of the stack of subs.
Without lighting the -20dB light on the NU3000DSP, the back door is rattling. Hunter by Kaiju (the infamous 36Hz compressed sine track) comes through very well.
I'm going back over some dubstep, and this is pretty impressive. Doesn't seem like I'm missing much. The bottom note of Slam by Pendulum is good and powerful, and Tarantula also does quite well.
Running a quick polarity check (2Hz test tone) to make sure all the drivers were in-phase, I found out what people mean about the iNuke fans ramping up. I thought the amp was about to take flight. They can move a lot of air.
Happily, though, with the first light just coming on, they'll rattle bits of the house down to 28Hz. I don't think they'll take much power down there, but it's nice to know there's still something.
Tomorrow, they'll be playing outdoors for a few hundred people. An NU6000 will power all four, and I'm really looking forward to it. I'll try to get some photos.
After this weekend, there's another big festival mid-August. I'm hoping to have all eight of these cabinets done for then. Might even try a cardioid arrangement.
Chris
You gotta take more pics Chris! 😀
Debating on grabbing a PA385 while on sale ($175) to try one of these. Daughter is getting DJ requests and I do not want to drag out big guns. Whatcha guys think of the sim?
Does the low corner dig deeper with multiples for TL alignment? Sims seem to indicate this.
Debating on grabbing a PA385 while on sale ($175) to try one of these. Daughter is getting DJ requests and I do not want to drag out big guns. Whatcha guys think of the sim?
Does the low corner dig deeper with multiples for TL alignment? Sims seem to indicate this.
Attachments
Sorry gents, in all my excitement I skipped the most important part.
The stack of subs stands about as tall as me.
I'm not sure the LF corner moves any lower when you've got multiples, though.
Here's the impedance plots:
This was plugging in one at a time, moving up the stack, and then all four in parallel.
The two peaks have stayed in the same place, though note that this cabinet is ported to accomodate the extra depth of the Faital Pro drivers (15HP1060).
I don't know if the TL version will change LF extension with stacking, but I doubt it - the two are acting very similar to each other.
Chris
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
The stack of subs stands about as tall as me.
I'm not sure the LF corner moves any lower when you've got multiples, though.
Here's the impedance plots:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
This was plugging in one at a time, moving up the stack, and then all four in parallel.
The two peaks have stayed in the same place, though note that this cabinet is ported to accomodate the extra depth of the Faital Pro drivers (15HP1060).
I don't know if the TL version will change LF extension with stacking, but I doubt it - the two are acting very similar to each other.
Chris
That's more like it 😉
If you add electrical phase to the plot, the 0 crossing point is the FB at that drive level.
If you add electrical phase to the plot, the 0 crossing point is the FB at that drive level.
So, they were ready for the festival yesterday.
A few acts including a couple of bands, and background music in between. Of course, when I was setting everything up in the morning I made sure to play some test music:
- Truth - Devil's Hands
- Santana - Put Your Lights On
- Barbara Bonney - Ave Maria
And some others.
They were set up 2 per side. Crossover to the mains was 160Hz, though I'd like to tweak that lower for centre-clustered subs. Didn't have time to tweak time alignment or anything, just EQ copied from the prototype and keeping the same crossover and delays as the sealed subs.
EQ:
- 40Hz; +4dB; Q=1
- 160Hz; -4dB; Q=1
Some impressions:
1 - they drop surprisingly low. Powerful output at 40Hz is really cool to have. The old subs wouldn't do what these did. There was one or two tracks where it sounded like they had content lower than the subs could do, but I wasn't in the middle at the time so there might've been cancellations masking the output.
2 - Headroom is much improved, even compared to 4x 15" and 1x 21" in sealed boxes. I didn't have to worry about how much juice there was left. If I wanted more kick, I just pushed the fader and the subs responded in turn.
3 - I can pick these up with one hand. That's not to say they're very light, but they're definitely portable. I got all four in the back of a VW Polo with the back seats down, and could still see out of the rear-view mirror.
4 - If anything, I now need bigger amplifiers. The Faital drivers might've reached 12mm peak-to-peak travel on the kick drum so I know they have more to give. Maybe a couple of NU12000s would do it. For now, though, the NU6000s are doing just fine.
The sound was great all day. I had one of the bands come and tell me mine was easily the best of the festival, and that my mix was bang-on, both for their set and the other band's. When there was a HK ConTour array just up the road, that meant a lot.
The venue was a smallish car park, but it was packed with a few hundred people. The audience was spilling out across the street.
So yes, in short I'm very pleased with these subs, and can't wait to make another four. There'll be the same thing happening again towards the end of August, and also a 3-day festival at an outdoor showground around then. In-between, I'll be using them in singles and pairs for smaller gigs. They're going to see a lot of use.
Chris
A few acts including a couple of bands, and background music in between. Of course, when I was setting everything up in the morning I made sure to play some test music:
- Truth - Devil's Hands
- Santana - Put Your Lights On
- Barbara Bonney - Ave Maria
And some others.
They were set up 2 per side. Crossover to the mains was 160Hz, though I'd like to tweak that lower for centre-clustered subs. Didn't have time to tweak time alignment or anything, just EQ copied from the prototype and keeping the same crossover and delays as the sealed subs.
EQ:
- 40Hz; +4dB; Q=1
- 160Hz; -4dB; Q=1
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Some impressions:
1 - they drop surprisingly low. Powerful output at 40Hz is really cool to have. The old subs wouldn't do what these did. There was one or two tracks where it sounded like they had content lower than the subs could do, but I wasn't in the middle at the time so there might've been cancellations masking the output.
2 - Headroom is much improved, even compared to 4x 15" and 1x 21" in sealed boxes. I didn't have to worry about how much juice there was left. If I wanted more kick, I just pushed the fader and the subs responded in turn.
3 - I can pick these up with one hand. That's not to say they're very light, but they're definitely portable. I got all four in the back of a VW Polo with the back seats down, and could still see out of the rear-view mirror.
4 - If anything, I now need bigger amplifiers. The Faital drivers might've reached 12mm peak-to-peak travel on the kick drum so I know they have more to give. Maybe a couple of NU12000s would do it. For now, though, the NU6000s are doing just fine.
The sound was great all day. I had one of the bands come and tell me mine was easily the best of the festival, and that my mix was bang-on, both for their set and the other band's. When there was a HK ConTour array just up the road, that meant a lot.
The venue was a smallish car park, but it was packed with a few hundred people. The audience was spilling out across the street.
So yes, in short I'm very pleased with these subs, and can't wait to make another four. There'll be the same thing happening again towards the end of August, and also a 3-day festival at an outdoor showground around then. In-between, I'll be using them in singles and pairs for smaller gigs. They're going to see a lot of use.
Chris
Chris,
Looks good, always nice to have bands respond positively to all the work involved "behind the grille"!
Art
Looks good, always nice to have bands respond positively to all the work involved "behind the grille"!
Art
NICE! Love the stain.
Chris, can please confirm the sim and plans you used? I think it's the "2nd" one. I hope so, it sims much better than the first (one I posted). I think one of these things in a corner would shock people. I am getting 130db 2pi...
Chris, can please confirm the sim and plans you used? I think it's the "2nd" one. I hope so, it sims much better than the first (one I posted). I think one of these things in a corner would shock people. I am getting 130db 2pi...
Hi Zwiller,
The latest cabinet design started here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/272492-teeny-tiny-pa-15-subwoofer-11.html#post4938876
I'm simulating 1x cabinet to give about 125dB, and that seems to be in-line with my measurements. This is with a Behringer NU6000, which gives 89v RMS IIRC.
I haven't tried them indoors yet, but will take any opportunity I get.
Cheers, all.
Chris
The latest cabinet design started here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/272492-teeny-tiny-pa-15-subwoofer-11.html#post4938876
I'm simulating 1x cabinet to give about 125dB, and that seems to be in-line with my measurements. This is with a Behringer NU6000, which gives 89v RMS IIRC.
I haven't tried them indoors yet, but will take any opportunity I get.
Cheers, all.
Chris
Thanks! Different one than I thought tho but goes lower. I was using Oliver's/TB46 2nd sim on post 111.
That's the one I built. I went for the one with three internal panels and a 47L chamber volume.
The changes came about at the post I linked, and Oliver modified the original plans to incorporate those changes (Post 111).
I'm very pleased so far with these subs, and will be posting more updates and impressions when I next get to play with them.
Chris
The changes came about at the post I linked, and Oliver modified the original plans to incorporate those changes (Post 111).
I'm very pleased so far with these subs, and will be posting more updates and impressions when I next get to play with them.
Chris
Just got back from a 3-day festival. Quick update before I crash into bed.
Managed to get the Beyma drivers into some of these cabinets, too, for a total of eight (four Beyma 15P1200Nd, four Faital Pro 15HP1060). Amplifier was a Crown MA12000i, which is a serious piece of kit, capable of 2KW/ch into 8ohm and will put around 6KW/ch into 2ohm for short bursts.
Of course, it was loaded down to 2ohm on each side for this gig. I kept a pair of NU6000s spare in case the low impedances posed a problem, but all was well.
I didn't get much chance to turn it up loud, but when I did, I was grinning from ear to ear.
You push the fader, and there's bass. Solid and clean. You keep pushing the fader, it keeps getting louder. These are not your average 15" sub that'll kick at 65Hz and flap at 40Hz. These are flat down to 40Hz, and the difference is obvious. They sound like a good 18" cab in terms of LF extension.
We ran into problems with the mains supply, dropping it to 212v when we switched the lights on, and then the lights were dimming in time to the kick drum, so I suspect the mains dropped below 200v at times. I didn't get close enough to check when we were going full-tilt.
I'd post some pictures, but there wasn't much to see - 3 days of rain meant everything was covered up.
Chris
Managed to get the Beyma drivers into some of these cabinets, too, for a total of eight (four Beyma 15P1200Nd, four Faital Pro 15HP1060). Amplifier was a Crown MA12000i, which is a serious piece of kit, capable of 2KW/ch into 8ohm and will put around 6KW/ch into 2ohm for short bursts.
Of course, it was loaded down to 2ohm on each side for this gig. I kept a pair of NU6000s spare in case the low impedances posed a problem, but all was well.
I didn't get much chance to turn it up loud, but when I did, I was grinning from ear to ear.
You push the fader, and there's bass. Solid and clean. You keep pushing the fader, it keeps getting louder. These are not your average 15" sub that'll kick at 65Hz and flap at 40Hz. These are flat down to 40Hz, and the difference is obvious. They sound like a good 18" cab in terms of LF extension.
We ran into problems with the mains supply, dropping it to 212v when we switched the lights on, and then the lights were dimming in time to the kick drum, so I suspect the mains dropped below 200v at times. I didn't get close enough to check when we were going full-tilt.
I'd post some pictures, but there wasn't much to see - 3 days of rain meant everything was covered up.
Chris
Congrats. MA12000i: Class I, proprietary Crown digital type? What a beast! If you're running pars maybe look into RGB led cans, they are finally reasonable and much more efficient. Getting sufficient power was always "fun".
Yep, that's the amp. Bigger and heavier than the iNukes, but you can tell it's in a different class.
The lights were supplied by the venue - I'm not much of a lampie (prefer to focus on getting really good sound!). They were standard work lights, firing up at the tent for a nice yellow-ish glow. Nothing fancy, but suited the atmosphere. I think they were energy-saving bulbs, though - took a good few minutes to get going.
I was still running the entire PA system off a single 13A plug. UK mains is nice in that regard - the fuses (in the mains plug) are slow-blow, and will pass 30A for a useful amount of time.
Got another event on Sunday that'll be the same setup again. I'll try and get a bit more time to play around, try some dubstep etc. Fun!
Chris