Re: FR is not really FR, methinks
If you get zip cord that has controlled capacitance, inductance, etc.. and in general looks nice on a Nyquist plot then yo have very good wire.
yes a 3-4" will require help at both extremes if you are looking at flat soud 20-20k. a 3-4" driver will not move much air to deliver decent levels at 100hz much less 50Hz. and yes beaming will be an issue. the JX92 if yo look at its curves has a rising high end on axis response to compensate for this. after using the 9900 there is some argument for controlled directivity in the highest frequencies. The JX92 while not better than the %3 at the high end has to be used only very spcific conditions. the driver must be toed in to cross infront of the listener. this solves another problem. early refelctions at the highest frequencies. I have still to hear the JX92 so I cant be sure. Maybe the 53 is better mated to a small woofer. I'd have to hear both.
What is HammerDynamics? maybe you can XO the HammerDynamic to a JX53. it'd look odd but it mgiht work.
The manger requires a lot of help below 300Hz. in fact I felt that the Manger should not be XOed to a 8" SS driver as shown in teh expo but to a 10" SS driver. Khushroo is looking at using dipole bass to augment the bass of teh 8" SS driver used wit the Manger.
A 5"-8" fulrange plus tweeter...hmmmm..you got any combos in mind?
JX125/150 are expensive. I expect to the get the ALR l cone unit for under $20 each.
tcpip said:
If you get zip cord that has controlled capacitance, inductance, etc.. and in general looks nice on a Nyquist plot then yo have very good wire.
yes a 3-4" will require help at both extremes if you are looking at flat soud 20-20k. a 3-4" driver will not move much air to deliver decent levels at 100hz much less 50Hz. and yes beaming will be an issue. the JX92 if yo look at its curves has a rising high end on axis response to compensate for this. after using the 9900 there is some argument for controlled directivity in the highest frequencies. The JX92 while not better than the %3 at the high end has to be used only very spcific conditions. the driver must be toed in to cross infront of the listener. this solves another problem. early refelctions at the highest frequencies. I have still to hear the JX92 so I cant be sure. Maybe the 53 is better mated to a small woofer. I'd have to hear both.
What is HammerDynamics? maybe you can XO the HammerDynamic to a JX53. it'd look odd but it mgiht work.
The manger requires a lot of help below 300Hz. in fact I felt that the Manger should not be XOed to a 8" SS driver as shown in teh expo but to a 10" SS driver. Khushroo is looking at using dipole bass to augment the bass of teh 8" SS driver used wit the Manger.
A 5"-8" fulrange plus tweeter...hmmmm..you got any combos in mind?
JX125/150 are expensive. I expect to the get the ALR l cone unit for under $20 each.
Lowther FR drivers
I heard a pair of Lowthers in Florida a couple of years ago, they sounded fairly good, though lacked bottom end punch. Lowther fans are fanatics about their drivers, from what I understand. Also the range of cabinets for Lowthers is quite big, and IIRC,the cabinets are what determine their performance. I toyed with the idea of bringing in a pair of Lowther drivers here some years ago, but decided against it. Does anyone know of anyone using them in India?
I heard a pair of Lowthers in Florida a couple of years ago, they sounded fairly good, though lacked bottom end punch. Lowther fans are fanatics about their drivers, from what I understand. Also the range of cabinets for Lowthers is quite big, and IIRC,the cabinets are what determine their performance. I toyed with the idea of bringing in a pair of Lowther drivers here some years ago, but decided against it. Does anyone know of anyone using them in India?
Re: Re: FR is not really FR, methinks
Tarun
I am not sure the behaviour of the JX92 is fully apparent from the graph. One builder who has built a very interesting JX92-based TL with a ribbon tweeter, says that the high frequency "response" of the JX92 is mostly distortion, not the original signal. Also, the off-axis graphs of the driver show sharp jagged edges, indicating probable cone breakup problems. When I hear the driver, there's listening fatigue after some time. I could have made a dozen mistakes in building the box, but this high frequency induced listening fatigue is probably more the driver's problem than mine. The next speaker I'm building with these drivers will cut the JX92 at about 5-6K, and let a dome tweeter take over above that.navin said:
Sorry for the name-dropping 🙂 . Since you said you were very keen on FR drivers, I'd assumed you'd checked the the Single Driver Forum. AFAIK, this is the definitive Website for FR driver enthusiasts. There's a list of FR driver models from that site, and the HammerDynamics driver is listed there, together with a lot of other drivers, common and rare. There's also a separate HammerDynamics Website.
For what it's worth, you could try the Fostex range. There are many FR drivers in that size range, and they're not expensive. For tweeter, use any good dome. If you're on a budget (I am), you could pick up the Peerless domes. Also, the Jordan JX125 seems to be a very interesting driver, handling low bass and going up deep into dome tweeter territory. (This comment is purely based on what others in this forum have said and what the response graph on the Jordan site shows.) This too will be interesting for a two-way with a dome tweeter, I think.
Tarun
OT
sorry to deviate..!
George..
where do u get Diana krall and all from...?
any pointers...in india...?? i've been on the look out for some records...
i saw some DVD's but no audio discs...! do u always get it from outside..? things on my list are...
play on words -Sarah k
companion -pat barber
love scenes - diana krall
then four play and some sheffield drive disks...reference material....
any pointers...???
stuff that i liten to...
floyds, whitesnake, tom petty, jethro tull, nirvana, police/sting, led zep, alan parsons, dire straits, clapton, bob dilon, miles davis, bb king, vivaldi, strauss, ravel, bach, hindustani ...kishori amonkar, santoor flute recitals, tabla...
btw looking at the above list can u suggest some nice records that i might like...and it shud be available in india...!🙂
ajju
sorry to deviate..!
George..
where do u get Diana krall and all from...?
any pointers...in india...?? i've been on the look out for some records...
i saw some DVD's but no audio discs...! do u always get it from outside..? things on my list are...
play on words -Sarah k
companion -pat barber
love scenes - diana krall
then four play and some sheffield drive disks...reference material....
any pointers...???
stuff that i liten to...
floyds, whitesnake, tom petty, jethro tull, nirvana, police/sting, led zep, alan parsons, dire straits, clapton, bob dilon, miles davis, bb king, vivaldi, strauss, ravel, bach, hindustani ...kishori amonkar, santoor flute recitals, tabla...
btw looking at the above list can u suggest some nice records that i might like...and it shud be available in india...!🙂
ajju
Ajju
Try a place called Habitat, which sells CDs and also rents DVDs. This is on Church Street(parallel to MG Road), just past Hotel Highgates, on the right, as you go towards Museum Road.
I pick up music on all my trips to the US, esp some of the labels and stuff that isnt available here. The choice there is phenomenal. I have three Diana Krall CDs, also Patricia Barber's Companion. Diana Krall is really good stuff.
I also have a good reference CD with some demo tracks. You may want to do an audition sometime-we can fix it up for a group with Sai also, sometime soon.
George
Try a place called Habitat, which sells CDs and also rents DVDs. This is on Church Street(parallel to MG Road), just past Hotel Highgates, on the right, as you go towards Museum Road.
I pick up music on all my trips to the US, esp some of the labels and stuff that isnt available here. The choice there is phenomenal. I have three Diana Krall CDs, also Patricia Barber's Companion. Diana Krall is really good stuff.
I also have a good reference CD with some demo tracks. You may want to do an audition sometime-we can fix it up for a group with Sai also, sometime soon.
George
Re: Re: Re: FR is not really FR, methinks
hey thanks a lot. the JX92 link was worth it. yes i now remember reading that. ok back to the drawing board....let me tell you what is in my head.
lets say we are looking to build a 1.5 or at best a 2 way with a 1st order electrical filter.
the speaker should be musical and be able to deliver 95db/2m/40-16kHz
since we dont have a lot of tools i was thinkingof keeping the desing simple and avoiding using a XO in the 200-5k range. in fact i was hoping to use a single driver from 200Hz to 20k and a second midbass unit for BSC.
to keep the costs down i started looking at tangband drivers like the W3 1008, 871, and 3 AL cone drivers they make.
http://www.tb-speaker.com/detail/0414/W4-657SC.htm
http://www.tb-speaker.com/detail/tweeter/w3-315sc.asp
http://www.tb-speaker.com/detail/tweeter/w2-800sc.asp
then i figured that if I was going to put so much time and energy into this why not get a god driver like the JX92 use a 5-6" bass unit for BSC and voila.
which fostex would you recomend? The FE108ES looks interesting as does the FE168ES and the 208ES. http://www.solen.ca/fos.htm
Dave I think we need your help here.
remeber the object of this system is HT/AV and it will be driven using a tube amp (20W parallel EL84)
tcpip said:
hey thanks a lot. the JX92 link was worth it. yes i now remember reading that. ok back to the drawing board....let me tell you what is in my head.
lets say we are looking to build a 1.5 or at best a 2 way with a 1st order electrical filter.
the speaker should be musical and be able to deliver 95db/2m/40-16kHz
since we dont have a lot of tools i was thinkingof keeping the desing simple and avoiding using a XO in the 200-5k range. in fact i was hoping to use a single driver from 200Hz to 20k and a second midbass unit for BSC.
to keep the costs down i started looking at tangband drivers like the W3 1008, 871, and 3 AL cone drivers they make.
http://www.tb-speaker.com/detail/0414/W4-657SC.htm
http://www.tb-speaker.com/detail/tweeter/w3-315sc.asp
http://www.tb-speaker.com/detail/tweeter/w2-800sc.asp
then i figured that if I was going to put so much time and energy into this why not get a god driver like the JX92 use a 5-6" bass unit for BSC and voila.
which fostex would you recomend? The FE108ES looks interesting as does the FE168ES and the 208ES. http://www.solen.ca/fos.htm
Dave I think we need your help here.
remeber the object of this system is HT/AV and it will be driven using a tube amp (20W parallel EL84)
Thanks...will try that out...
btw planet m had some DVD's i think fourplay live etc...
I saw them once...Its all stacked away in the easy listening section....!! U might wanna check them out..!!
Regarding the audition part...I would be most interesrted...
Sssssaaaiii..Where art thou...? Probably we can plan some kind of a getto of all diy folks frm blr..... all music and no drinks...! 🙄
what say ppl..?
Ajju
Ashok
Now if you're coming I might provide some 12 year old single malt!
George
PS Sorry about the images, I have downloaded them on to my home , cable internet at home is down.
Now if you're coming I might provide some 12 year old single malt!
George
PS Sorry about the images, I have downloaded them on to my home , cable internet at home is down.
guys,
i looked at prices of the JX92, Fostex (solen), Lowther, Manger, et. al and man these drivers are expensive. what gives?
back to the drawing board....
what about a 1.5 way using the MCM 5" woofer (55-1870) and TB full range (w3 315sc)?
i am trying to work around 2-3 issues.
1. enough quality bass for most music (for HT/AV I we'd need a sub or 2).
2. small enough (12 liter max) to compete with Acoustimass (from you kow who)
3. no XO in the vocal range as it requires very good XO design to get right and I dont have the tools (LEAP/LMS, MLSSA, etc.) or the time for this.
4. using a tweeter at 5k or 7k etc... might run into lobing issues. using a 4" or larger full rnage like the JX92, Fostex FE108, or even TB W4 657sc means that the center to center distance between the fullrange and tweeter will be 7cm at least (using a small flange-less tweeter like Vifa's D26NC). that means above 6k one would run into lobing right?
hence if one has a small fullrange like the JX53 or W3 871 or W2 800sc that can run to 20k without help and supplement the bass one might be better off.
The W3 315SC from TB seems like a good cheap alternate to the JX 53. any opinions?
i looked at prices of the JX92, Fostex (solen), Lowther, Manger, et. al and man these drivers are expensive. what gives?
back to the drawing board....
what about a 1.5 way using the MCM 5" woofer (55-1870) and TB full range (w3 315sc)?
i am trying to work around 2-3 issues.
1. enough quality bass for most music (for HT/AV I we'd need a sub or 2).
2. small enough (12 liter max) to compete with Acoustimass (from you kow who)
3. no XO in the vocal range as it requires very good XO design to get right and I dont have the tools (LEAP/LMS, MLSSA, etc.) or the time for this.
4. using a tweeter at 5k or 7k etc... might run into lobing issues. using a 4" or larger full rnage like the JX92, Fostex FE108, or even TB W4 657sc means that the center to center distance between the fullrange and tweeter will be 7cm at least (using a small flange-less tweeter like Vifa's D26NC). that means above 6k one would run into lobing right?
hence if one has a small fullrange like the JX53 or W3 871 or W2 800sc that can run to 20k without help and supplement the bass one might be better off.
The W3 315SC from TB seems like a good cheap alternate to the JX 53. any opinions?
Try the Bolton+Peerless combo
It's been haunting me ever since. I have heard Jamo bookshelf units costing SGD 2500 (about USD 1500) and this sound was comparable to that. Bass extension was amazing; we played some Chesky test CDs with a solo drum track, and the bass would have done a floorstander proud. If you consider that this is a bookshelf, this bass was awesomely sharp and hard-hitting. (Of course, the amp was Doug Self's ultra low distortion "blameless amp", built as two monoblocks. That may have helped. 🙂 )
We listened to an Ali Akbar Khan album (published by Chhanda Dhara, squeaky clean DDD German recording) which I had copied onto CD-R and given Angshu. There were almost tears in my eyes, it sounded so emotionally appealing. This album had never sounded this good on my own system. The vocals, the transients, everything had such a natural sound that I was totally amazed. And just look at the price. Both drivers (for one box) will cost you Rs.1100 or so (USD 25.00?). Simple passive xo, and add a thick MDF box.
Angshu had also made another bookshelf using the famous Vifa P13 midbass and a Vifa aluminium dome tweeter. We listened to that one too. It was not as clean, didn't have as good transients, and was muddying the low bass, compared to the Bolton+Philips box. Yes, I kid thee not. Angshu attributes it to the inferior cabinet damping of his Vifa box; I think an additional reason could be the smaller, lighter Vifa handling all those low bass sounds. The Vifa Al-dome tweeter however was clearly superior to the Philips... treble sounds like cymbals were cleaner, no doubt about that. Both of us think that if Angshu just replaces his Philips tweeter with a Peerless 60W, he'll probably get comparably clean treble.
If I need to build smallish satellites, I'll simply beg/borrow the design details from Angshu (he says there's no hi-tech here, it's ultra straightforward), replace the Philips with the Peerless 60W (Angshu says he'd do that too if he had to build it today) and just go for it. The Peerless would cost me Rs.650 (about USD 15.00), which is no big deal. If I was feeling rich, I might do LR4 active xo and bi-amping.
You seem to be doing too many thought experiments, Navin. I know the feeling; I do that too, and obsessively. But going by what your requirements are, I feel you should stop thinking for a bit and just build this two-way bookshelf and see for yourself whether this sounds good. Forget about not putting an xo in the vocal range... just build it and see how it sounds. (And no, don't try to move the xo up to 3K or 4K; the Bolton won't take it. I checked with Angshu.)
I am certain I'll build this one. Both in a box and as OB. If I do OB, the low bass may need reinforcement below a certain frequency, but if the mids/highs sound better in an OB, the extra woofer may be worth it.
Just catch hold of Angshu (the word "retiring" was invented for him, I think) and get the details from him, and just build the box and see.
Tarun
I was in Delhi yesterday, and heard what can be done with a bass reflex bookshelf (A4-size front baffle, approx) with the Bolton 6.5" poly-cone midbass (Rs.475, about USD 10.00) and a Philips dome tweeter (Rs.250, about USD 5.00). Simple passive xo, crossing over at 2.5K. This was at Angshu's place.navin said:
It's been haunting me ever since. I have heard Jamo bookshelf units costing SGD 2500 (about USD 1500) and this sound was comparable to that. Bass extension was amazing; we played some Chesky test CDs with a solo drum track, and the bass would have done a floorstander proud. If you consider that this is a bookshelf, this bass was awesomely sharp and hard-hitting. (Of course, the amp was Doug Self's ultra low distortion "blameless amp", built as two monoblocks. That may have helped. 🙂 )
We listened to an Ali Akbar Khan album (published by Chhanda Dhara, squeaky clean DDD German recording) which I had copied onto CD-R and given Angshu. There were almost tears in my eyes, it sounded so emotionally appealing. This album had never sounded this good on my own system. The vocals, the transients, everything had such a natural sound that I was totally amazed. And just look at the price. Both drivers (for one box) will cost you Rs.1100 or so (USD 25.00?). Simple passive xo, and add a thick MDF box.
Angshu had also made another bookshelf using the famous Vifa P13 midbass and a Vifa aluminium dome tweeter. We listened to that one too. It was not as clean, didn't have as good transients, and was muddying the low bass, compared to the Bolton+Philips box. Yes, I kid thee not. Angshu attributes it to the inferior cabinet damping of his Vifa box; I think an additional reason could be the smaller, lighter Vifa handling all those low bass sounds. The Vifa Al-dome tweeter however was clearly superior to the Philips... treble sounds like cymbals were cleaner, no doubt about that. Both of us think that if Angshu just replaces his Philips tweeter with a Peerless 60W, he'll probably get comparably clean treble.
If I need to build smallish satellites, I'll simply beg/borrow the design details from Angshu (he says there's no hi-tech here, it's ultra straightforward), replace the Philips with the Peerless 60W (Angshu says he'd do that too if he had to build it today) and just go for it. The Peerless would cost me Rs.650 (about USD 15.00), which is no big deal. If I was feeling rich, I might do LR4 active xo and bi-amping.
You seem to be doing too many thought experiments, Navin. I know the feeling; I do that too, and obsessively. But going by what your requirements are, I feel you should stop thinking for a bit and just build this two-way bookshelf and see for yourself whether this sounds good. Forget about not putting an xo in the vocal range... just build it and see how it sounds. (And no, don't try to move the xo up to 3K or 4K; the Bolton won't take it. I checked with Angshu.)
I am certain I'll build this one. Both in a box and as OB. If I do OB, the low bass may need reinforcement below a certain frequency, but if the mids/highs sound better in an OB, the extra woofer may be worth it.
Just catch hold of Angshu (the word "retiring" was invented for him, I think) and get the details from him, and just build the box and see.
Tarun
geroge, you are now convincing a lot of us that we are going blind.
tarun,
which jamo did you hear, few of them impress me. even the D830 was not extraordinary esp considerig the price.
I have heard the P13 and was not impressed by it. the designer who was using it told me it is poor in the bass due to it's High dmaping surround" which gives it a ruler falt rreq response but robs it of dynamics. the D25AG35 is better.
yes i seem to bein a bit of analysis / paralysis. The Bolten - peerless combo should be one i could look at if angshu will part with the design. i have a few friends looking for a good bookshelves. we'd have to mate it with a nice amp (that self design might be the just the ticket) now only if we can get angshu to co-operate 🙂
the requirments I have set for myself Based on feedback from the women in my life (wife, mom, cousins, friend's wives) is that the speaker must be small (i dont expect to compete with acoutimass though), wall hung (that might create problems of getting adequate image depth but might partly solve BSC), go to about 80Hz without stress, work for both stereo and HT/AV, have no long term fatugue and be very musical all that on a budget.
i have heard a few full range (or almost fullrange) speakers notable the FE108, Manger, and not including the maggies (SMGa and MGIII) and these speakers sunded very real. forget hard hitting, slam, etc... these speakers were romantic. they disappered.
the cabinet I am looking at is a 6" W x 8" D, 20" tall box made of 6mm aluminum. the box will be imbedded in the wall by about 2" redcing visible depth to about 6". internal volume 14-15 liters. bracing will be using aluminum too damped with fiberfil, fiberglass and lead etc...
i was looking at a W3 871 (W3 593 / 594) + W5 876 from tangband at first but then decided to look at alcones drivers and make an almost all aluminum soeaker 🙂
still i'd love to build what angshu has done just for fun.
tarun,
which jamo did you hear, few of them impress me. even the D830 was not extraordinary esp considerig the price.
I have heard the P13 and was not impressed by it. the designer who was using it told me it is poor in the bass due to it's High dmaping surround" which gives it a ruler falt rreq response but robs it of dynamics. the D25AG35 is better.
yes i seem to bein a bit of analysis / paralysis. The Bolten - peerless combo should be one i could look at if angshu will part with the design. i have a few friends looking for a good bookshelves. we'd have to mate it with a nice amp (that self design might be the just the ticket) now only if we can get angshu to co-operate 🙂
the requirments I have set for myself Based on feedback from the women in my life (wife, mom, cousins, friend's wives) is that the speaker must be small (i dont expect to compete with acoutimass though), wall hung (that might create problems of getting adequate image depth but might partly solve BSC), go to about 80Hz without stress, work for both stereo and HT/AV, have no long term fatugue and be very musical all that on a budget.
i have heard a few full range (or almost fullrange) speakers notable the FE108, Manger, and not including the maggies (SMGa and MGIII) and these speakers sunded very real. forget hard hitting, slam, etc... these speakers were romantic. they disappered.
the cabinet I am looking at is a 6" W x 8" D, 20" tall box made of 6mm aluminum. the box will be imbedded in the wall by about 2" redcing visible depth to about 6". internal volume 14-15 liters. bracing will be using aluminum too damped with fiberfil, fiberglass and lead etc...
i was looking at a W3 871 (W3 593 / 594) + W5 876 from tangband at first but then decided to look at alcones drivers and make an almost all aluminum soeaker 🙂
still i'd love to build what angshu has done just for fun.
Apologies
Navin
Sorry second time was also unlucky. I got a message syaing the size of file was too large.Third time should work!
George
Navin
Sorry second time was also unlucky. I got a message syaing the size of file was too large.Third time should work!
George
George is testing our patience...!!!
If ur third time unlucky ..u might have couple of un-welcome visitors at Cox town too...😛 😀
If ur third time unlucky ..u might have couple of un-welcome visitors at Cox town too...😛 😀
Ajju
Give me a few days, I will formally set up an audition in my house. I have been really busy these last few days with a couple of US visitors, who are scheduled to return to the US tomorrow. Too much eating, beer and 12/15 year old single malt thee past two weeks, I need some rest.
George
Give me a few days, I will formally set up an audition in my house. I have been really busy these last few days with a couple of US visitors, who are scheduled to return to the US tomorrow. Too much eating, beer and 12/15 year old single malt thee past two weeks, I need some rest.
George
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