Posted in all earnestness by DJ Dan, Post #651, Page 44:
Oh, God, DJ Dan, don't you realize something? This piece you dug up trying to support an invasion of Iraq is a joke. In your never ending quest to dig up stuff on the net to support an invasion of Iraq, you stumbled across a piece of satire and posted it here as a straight piece of political opinion!!!
Do you really think anybody intelligent enough to be promoted to speak for the German government would come out and say that Germany intended, "to take a position opposite that of the United States, whatever that position might be"? Can you imagine the swarthy, turban-clad Osama bin Laden travelling with "a Swedish passport identifying him as one 'Ollie Holfenfauser'”?
It's a put-on, DJ. Get with it, man, you're falling apart on us!!
djdan said:
Oh, God, DJ Dan, don't you realize something? This piece you dug up trying to support an invasion of Iraq is a joke. In your never ending quest to dig up stuff on the net to support an invasion of Iraq, you stumbled across a piece of satire and posted it here as a straight piece of political opinion!!!
Do you really think anybody intelligent enough to be promoted to speak for the German government would come out and say that Germany intended, "to take a position opposite that of the United States, whatever that position might be"? Can you imagine the swarthy, turban-clad Osama bin Laden travelling with "a Swedish passport identifying him as one 'Ollie Holfenfauser'”?
It's a put-on, DJ. Get with it, man, you're falling apart on us!!
With all respect, DJ, I don't think you did. You had a string of five straight posts: two anti-French political cartoons, one piece by right wing hack David Horowitz, and one about the supposedly Nazi past of Saddam Hussein. I don't think you got the joke at all.
It really looks like you were so eager to publish something to put down the French because of their resistance to an invasion that you completely missed the fact that the article was written tongue-in-cheek. 🙄
It really looks like you were so eager to publish something to put down the French because of their resistance to an invasion that you completely missed the fact that the article was written tongue-in-cheek. 🙄
till said:
I guess you didn't read the whole thing. I am surprised, sort of, that while you are quick to condemm the US, you say nothing about what the other party in the complaint was doing. Let's wait to see what the court determines before we cast stones, ok?
And that threat of war is the only thing making Saddam even partially acting to comply with UN resolutions. Do you disagree with that statement? If the US backs down due to world pressure, what will happen? You tell me. There may not be war today, but I fail to see how the world will be a safer place tomorrow with him having nuclear weapons and the US deciding to stay home.
As far as war not bringing peace....you have obviously never taken a history class. It is usually necessary to have a war to get freedom. I mean, didn't WW 2 bring relative peace to Europe, or do you think that had the US stayed out that Hitler would have reformed and given you all freedom?
Well, if you would rather have Saddam as your leader than the president of the US, then I give up. Bush is a decent man and I don't think he has killed any of his advisors for disagreeing with him. I dare you to to to Iraq and hold up an anti-Saddam poster if you think he is such a nice guy.
I am getting a little perturbed that no one seems to be able to present a rational arguement that backing down on Saddam will result in the world being a safer place in the long term. I mean, come on guys, does anyone doubt that if we back off that he will get nuclear weapons? Do you really want to see another dictator with nuclear weapons? Do you really think that, after he gets them, he will not threaten their use to anyone who attempts to stop him from taking over other countries, as his stated goal is to become the leader of all Arabs and gain back all lands he claims belong to Arabs? Does anyone think that if the world backs down to him, that other despots will not follow his lead and, like him, thumb their noses at the world and dare them to take action? Consider North Korea. If we fail to act against Saddam, then North Korea will have no concerns about the world taking any action against them for their own nuclear program violations.
It is discouraging that the only answers I see are put downs of the USA and those who support the ouster of Saddam, implications that we are not civilized, name calling, threats of war crimes, hand wringing, etc.
before US goes out to force others to comply with UN resolutions, learn how to comply with UN resolutions by yourshelf!
Im didn´t elect this President (who did? ) and how can he expect i or any german, french etc, who did not elect him, goes to war for his crazy ideas? we are not responsible for american mania.
respect internatinal court den haag before call any other country criminal.
cure your illusion to be choosen by god.
Before tell you want to bring democacy to other countrys, learn how to do a proper election!
your leader is a religios fanativ mainac and alcohol addicted. A poor and ill fool.
please reread this thread because this point is brought back the fourth or fifth time now. America was the nation that set europe free. They like to tell this, because they lkike to call themshelfes heros. ok. The Wehrmacht was beaten in russia by russians.
freedom brought by doing war: USA made about 270000 bomb attacs against iraq during last 12 years. More then 1 millon are killed by USA during this time. What is the effect of these policy? Nothing - the reason for you to do more war.
America goes the wrong way these days, and everyone knows.
If america don´t stop going this way - it will be your way down. I hope the next superpower (china ?) has more intelligent leaders.
Kelticwizard ,
I am a not an anti-french guy and yes it is a joke , what is a problem ? Many people here try to argue posting a counterfait pictures or funny story . If I don't have this right , please, tell me !
Do you realy think that I do not read what I post here ?
I am not a stupid guy how wanna try to argue just for fun .
Yes , I support Irak invasion and get down Saddam, but I am not a brainless supporter. I do not use injuries and I know that my post are not welcome for many people but I try hard to stay calm and do not offeend anybody.
The reason to post different point of view ( from newspaper ) is to make people think to what have done Saddam to NATO , UE and USA. I think that is a victory of evil (Jeff R tell this better than me ).
I like USA ,UK, Australia, Germany , France, Belgium and other civilisated country. Do you think that is ok ?
Regards !
Dan
P.S. The first cartoon is not only anti-french .
I am a not an anti-french guy and yes it is a joke , what is a problem ? Many people here try to argue posting a counterfait pictures or funny story . If I don't have this right , please, tell me !
Do you realy think that I do not read what I post here ?
I am not a stupid guy how wanna try to argue just for fun .
Yes , I support Irak invasion and get down Saddam, but I am not a brainless supporter. I do not use injuries and I know that my post are not welcome for many people but I try hard to stay calm and do not offeend anybody.
The reason to post different point of view ( from newspaper ) is to make people think to what have done Saddam to NATO , UE and USA. I think that is a victory of evil (Jeff R tell this better than me ).
I like USA ,UK, Australia, Germany , France, Belgium and other civilisated country. Do you think that is ok ?
Regards !
Dan
P.S. The first cartoon is not only anti-french .
Till ,
You do not want NATO . I want and I love NATO becouse this organization give more freddom and stability to my country. If Germany do not want to stay in NATO why do not tell everybody loud and clear like the France.
NATO do not force nobody to stay in this alliance. If you want to pay more for your country defence is your will and everybody will respect that.
American tax payers will be happy to not pay for Germany defence.
I pay for NATO ( for our defence ) every month 2,37 Euro. For me is not to much and I wanna pay this mony.
Dan
You do not want NATO . I want and I love NATO becouse this organization give more freddom and stability to my country. If Germany do not want to stay in NATO why do not tell everybody loud and clear like the France.
NATO do not force nobody to stay in this alliance. If you want to pay more for your country defence is your will and everybody will respect that.
American tax payers will be happy to not pay for Germany defence.
I pay for NATO ( for our defence ) every month 2,37 Euro. For me is not to much and I wanna pay this mony.
Dan
Jeff R,
I agree with you that there is a troubling lack of alternative
"solutions" to the Iraq problem. However, that does not imply
that going to war is necessarily a better alternative than the
other bad ones. There are many questions about the "war
"solution". One of the most important ones is what the
reason(s) for it are. If I do not misunderstand you, you have
repeatedly implied that freeing the Iraqi people from
dictatorship and installing democracy is the primary goal.
I doubt that even a majority of pro-war americans believe
in this explanation. That said, democracy might perhaps be
a bonus effect in the end. The real reasons are still obscure
and the pro-war posters in this thread seems to be in no
agreement whatsoever about the real reasons.
Early on in this thread I also asked a number of questions
about how this war was expected to achieve its goal and
what the effects will be. So far I cannot remember anyone trying
to address any of these questions. It is easy to say that that
that we will go to war to get rid of Saddam. It is an altogether
different issue to achieve this goal. It seems no secret what
the Iraqi strategy will be. Many experts have said it and Iraq
has said it themselves. They will not even try to hold the borders
but concentrate on a few strategic points, especially cities. They
know the US forces technological advantages will win in open
terrain. Urban combat however is known to be very difficult
without causing great casualties for the attacker, unless of
course you choose to bomb them out, which would wipe out
the civilians as well. Saddam will probably hide in an underground
bunker somewhere in Bhagdad. Unless you have very precise
intelligence information about the location of this bunker, it
is hard to see how to get at him without massive bombing of
the urban area. As for the invading forces, you should expect
Saddam to be ruthless enough to use his own civilians as
shields, which has been suggested also by exile Iraqis. It is
also no secret that the US warplan will most certainly start
by massive bombings of the infrastructure, water plants,
electric plants, roads, bridges etc. causing a disaster for the
civilans which will last for a long time.
That said, I have not even touched upon the anti-american
and anti-west feelings that this war will nourish in other
arab states or the (attempted) terror attacks it is likely to trigger
of.
Does any of you have any educated estimates of the expected
casualties? I am no expert, but I think an optimistic estimate
would be thousands of US (and allied) soldiers, tens of thousands
of civilians Iraqis and tens to hundreds of thousands of Iraqi
soldiers. The pessimistic estimate I'd prefer to not even try to
estimate.
When all this is done, if "successfull", do you think the average
Iraqi will hail you as heroes liberating them? I doubt it. Not that
they like Saddam, but most reports I have read of intervjus with
Iraqis point at a profound mistrust of the US and often also of
the UN.
I agree with you that there is a troubling lack of alternative
"solutions" to the Iraq problem. However, that does not imply
that going to war is necessarily a better alternative than the
other bad ones. There are many questions about the "war
"solution". One of the most important ones is what the
reason(s) for it are. If I do not misunderstand you, you have
repeatedly implied that freeing the Iraqi people from
dictatorship and installing democracy is the primary goal.
I doubt that even a majority of pro-war americans believe
in this explanation. That said, democracy might perhaps be
a bonus effect in the end. The real reasons are still obscure
and the pro-war posters in this thread seems to be in no
agreement whatsoever about the real reasons.
Early on in this thread I also asked a number of questions
about how this war was expected to achieve its goal and
what the effects will be. So far I cannot remember anyone trying
to address any of these questions. It is easy to say that that
that we will go to war to get rid of Saddam. It is an altogether
different issue to achieve this goal. It seems no secret what
the Iraqi strategy will be. Many experts have said it and Iraq
has said it themselves. They will not even try to hold the borders
but concentrate on a few strategic points, especially cities. They
know the US forces technological advantages will win in open
terrain. Urban combat however is known to be very difficult
without causing great casualties for the attacker, unless of
course you choose to bomb them out, which would wipe out
the civilians as well. Saddam will probably hide in an underground
bunker somewhere in Bhagdad. Unless you have very precise
intelligence information about the location of this bunker, it
is hard to see how to get at him without massive bombing of
the urban area. As for the invading forces, you should expect
Saddam to be ruthless enough to use his own civilians as
shields, which has been suggested also by exile Iraqis. It is
also no secret that the US warplan will most certainly start
by massive bombings of the infrastructure, water plants,
electric plants, roads, bridges etc. causing a disaster for the
civilans which will last for a long time.
That said, I have not even touched upon the anti-american
and anti-west feelings that this war will nourish in other
arab states or the (attempted) terror attacks it is likely to trigger
of.
Does any of you have any educated estimates of the expected
casualties? I am no expert, but I think an optimistic estimate
would be thousands of US (and allied) soldiers, tens of thousands
of civilians Iraqis and tens to hundreds of thousands of Iraqi
soldiers. The pessimistic estimate I'd prefer to not even try to
estimate.
When all this is done, if "successfull", do you think the average
Iraqi will hail you as heroes liberating them? I doubt it. Not that
they like Saddam, but most reports I have read of intervjus with
Iraqis point at a profound mistrust of the US and often also of
the UN.
I do not understand what you try to say .
Do you not belive that american tax payers pay for your security ?
Give me some details !
Dan
Do you not belive that american tax payers pay for your security ?
Give me some details !
Dan
DJ Dan,
would you mind telling us which country you live in? It seems
from what you say that you live somewhere in eastern europe.
I think this information might help people in trying to understand
you point of view better.
would you mind telling us which country you live in? It seems
from what you say that you live somewhere in eastern europe.
I think this information might help people in trying to understand
you point of view better.
who told you this ? Bush new agency he installed for spreading the "truth" over the world?
Go, inform yourshelf about tax systems and tax rates in different countrys of the so called free world!
Christer,
I live in Romania . ( I told that a few time but is not a problem to tell you again )
Till , just one small example:
American tax payers pay the bill for the food wich they give with the american plane to Berlin people almoast an year when the Soviet Union wanna try to hunger the west-Berlin.
Ich bin ein Berliner - tell an American President.
Can you tell me wich president say that ?
Dan
I live in Romania . ( I told that a few time but is not a problem to tell you again )
Till , just one small example:
American tax payers pay the bill for the food wich they give with the american plane to Berlin people almoast an year when the Soviet Union wanna try to hunger the west-Berlin.
Ich bin ein Berliner - tell an American President.
Can you tell me wich president say that ?
Dan
Till ,
I just remember.
Do you have a german air fighter ? Or you will wait to see when Eurofighter will can fly ?
If Saddam will wanna bomb you what can you do ? You will ask nice to not do that ?
I just remember.
Do you have a german air fighter ? Or you will wait to see when Eurofighter will can fly ?
If Saddam will wanna bomb you what can you do ? You will ask nice to not do that ?
Jeff R said:
Excuse me, Jeff, but exactly when did the US become the world's Official Dictator Exterminator?
If you feel that way, should we take out worldwide advertising? How about this:
"Got a dictator? No problem. Just dial (800) CALLUSA and planeloads of 19 year olds from the farms of Nebraska and the streets of Brooklyn will pop right over and get rid of your Dictator for you. Free estimates."
Jeff, do you have any idea how many dictatorships there are in the world, compared to how many democracies? Thinking the way you do will get us involved in 50 different countries all at once. Sorry-the fact that a place is under a dictatorship does not mean that the US has to go busting in there and put things right.
If that is your major argument for going into Iraq-and that seems to be the one you are making-then forget it. That is unworkable.
No till , is not joke . Just name one air figther made by Germany in this moment. Attention , not some european manufacturer concern like Tornado !
Sweden have a very good air-figther made by SAAB ,
France have Mirage and Jaguar.
Rusia have MIG and Suhoi .
Germany have ..................... ?
Can you tell me one ?
Sweden have a very good air-figther made by SAAB ,
France have Mirage and Jaguar.
Rusia have MIG and Suhoi .
Germany have ..................... ?
Can you tell me one ?
There is good historical reason why arms like tornados are munfactured by europen cooperations - not by german companys alone. It would be of great benefit for those countrys who wish to be part or partner of EU to learn a bit of these connections between "old europe" countrys. But also you could investigate a little how much german production techni systems is uses by other countrys. You see things a little simple. Germany does produce a lot of technic to produce end produvts. Less end products by itshelf. But before you post and post and post without inform yourshelf about f.e. tax and flow of money in western world i prefer to stop this discurs on useless points. Germany had not only to pay for protection - germany and german tax payers were forced to pay for americas wars so far. NASTO was an instrument for USA to manage other countrys pay for US strategical interests. This doesn´t work anymore since Bush abused this system. Think about why taxrate in germany is that much higher than in US. We are a colonie of US. We don´t like this situation. Not in generell but with this US president it is inacceptable. You like it - ok do so.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.