Support Peace! What can WE do....??

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#681
It is Ok for me Till , i understand your point !

Do not be angry to me , I know that the Germans can make a good plane. That is not a problem. What I want to say is : If a country wanna defend alone will need more money.

And another thing Till ! If you wanna participate to a political debate you need to know history very well. The national pride or slogan are not arguments.

You wanna respect . But do you respect other people fillings ?

If some lunatic terorist will kill 3000 germans people you will forgive him ?

What do you do If your friends and allied will turn your back ?

I do not wait answers to this question , but I hope to make you to think .

I wish you a happy life , Till !

With my best regards ,
Dan
 
#684
The only country that really benefitted from this plan was...Germany.
Click to expand...

You are right, germany benefitted. But germany payed also.

First the marshall plan was not altruistic. US learned very quick post the war, the first plan only to allow farming in germany would be a great waste of ressources. There was a tradition and rressoucre of technical and industrial know how in germany. By let all germans beeing farmers there wouldn´t be much benefitt for USA. Argentina is better for this purpose because of the land....

So they let germany grow a strong industrie. But a lot of this industrie his owned by US companys. Also the structure was ever, we produce high interest goods and sell to USA. But we have to buy a lot from USA - f.e. weapon systems. So we don´t earn to much money. OK, this system isn´t really bad. It is in some way the same system since Julius Caesar 2000 years before...

I don´t want to change all this, but it is not grounded on altruistic reasons - more on gain for profit.

And i´m sure the activities of Mr Bush and Co follow the same pattern.
 
#686
I fully understand. And the french president won 10 points in my personal scale - what changes not so much of my sympathy for him because else we know him as nukemaniac.

This international crisis has one advantage - "old europe" comes closer together. This is necessary in a time EU is not much worth because nearly everyone is a member of it. If EU takes itshelf serios it should concentrate on "old europe"

But don´t take me wrong - '" Heimat" - i ´m not proud to be a german like citizens of other countrys may be. I would prefer to life elsewere. Or better - at some places in alternate mode. Before Mr Bushs goverment one of my favorites was USA. I hope it will be again in near future. At the moment i would prefer latin amerika.

(Anyone want´s invite me?)
 
#687
This thread I started - Was it a mistake?

I want peace.

I am not a violent and offensive man, generally.
I believe in right to defend oneself - so I do that.
Verbally,
when I'm attacked or critisised verbally.
Sometimes not even that.

Mostly the offense falls back on the offender.
It is the law of:
You get what you give. Ripe what you saw.
In the very same moment you do - you get.

Give love, peace & joy.
Will make you a more loving, peaceful & glad person.

---------------------------------------------------------------

This thread, I started, was not intended to discuss
which country has the most deadly airborne war machines.
We all know war nation number one has that.
Those united states over there.

I am proud to say that we in Sweden, since 1809,
has not attacked, started a war against other humans.
The Swedish defence is just that - A Defence - Not An Offense!.
We limit actions to our own territory.
Do not violate the swedish borders!
I am lucky to live in a country like that.

Not many countries can say that.
For some nations, several, the record is horrifying!

Yes, 'n' how many times must the cannon balls fly
Before they're forever banned?

The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind,
The answer is blowin' in the wind.

How many times must a man look up
Before he can see the sky?
Yes, 'n' how many ears must one man have
Before he can hear people cry?

Yes, 'n' how many deaths will it take till he knows
That too many people have died?

The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind,
The answer is blowin' in the wind.

/Bob Dylan in the 1960ies.

Could've been written ................ yesterday!

*********************************************************************

So if this thread goes out of subject like this,
I ask the moderators to close it down.
Or put those bragging killer posts into TEXAS-thread.
That's where they really belong!
Even young men could behave with more insight about themselves.

A third alternative is for them to start a new thread:
Support WAR! What can WE do....?? 😀😀 😕 :xeye:

/halo - from the :angel: swedish viewpoint :angel:

*********************************************************************





#####################################################################

djdan said:
Till ,
I just remember.
Do you have a german air fighter ? Or you will wait to see when Eurofighter will can fly ?
If Saddam will wanna bomb you what can you do ? You will ask nice to not do that ?
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djdan said:
No till , is not joke . Just name one air figther made by Germany in this moment. Attention , not some european manufacturer concern like Tornado !
Sweden have a very good air-figther made by SAAB ,
France have Mirage and Jaguar.
Rusia have MIG and Suhoi .
Germany have ..................... ?
Can you tell me one ?
Click to expand...
 
#688
TILL UELENSPIEGEL.

Hi,

This international crisis has one advantage - "old europe" comes closer together.
Click to expand...

Indeed.
I am a fierce defender of moral values, that doesn't imply I want to stop progress in anyway...only from what i observe no progress has been made,especially morally.

But don´t take me wrong - '" Heimat" - i ´m not proud to be a german like citizens of other countrys may be.
Click to expand...

Having lived in Munich for years myself, I can now understand why the Germans make so much noise when on holiday.:dead:

You live in a beautiful country and I still have to meet the first German that was not helpful or was impolite to me...I think much depends on your own attitude towards them.

Admittedly Bavaria is not al of Germany but still.

Tchuess, 😉
 
#689
The Freewheelin' Bob Dylan - 1963

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.

..........
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.


*****************************************************************

Blowin' in the Wind
Girl of the North Country
Masters of War
Down the Highway
Bob Dylan's Blues
A Hard Rain's A-Gonna Fall
Don't Think Twice, It's All Right
Bob Dylan's Dream
Oxford Town
Talkin' World War III Blues
Corrina, Corrina
Honey, Just Allow Me One More Chance
I Shall Be Free

*****************************************************************

The FreeWheelin' Bob Dylan - Album Page at www.bobdylan.com

/halo
 
#692
Re: Re: Re: Re: PEACEFUL MOTIVE TO GO TO WAR...

Jeff R said:

So, what are you trying to say? How much aid has Saddam given out? You are trying to compare Bush to Saddam, right? Or are you simply joining the crowd to dump on the USA?
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What I'm trying to say is:
NONE
NO
NO

Sadam is a mass murdering psychophant and must go! Bush is not my cup of tea and only you could decide if he stays. I do not dump on the USA because I enjoy to many of the amenities they have to offer, but I do enjoy criticizing their follies. But then I do enjoy the benefits of a democracy which allow me to criticize my government without being branded as unpatriotic. At least in this country. How about yours?

Believe me, I was just commenting on someone's mistaken idea that the US is super benevolent. They are not - if you consider the aid given as a percentage of GDP in comparison to what other countries give.
Here's the way to look at it:
For me giving a $1000 to charity is a fortune and unaffordable.
Bill Gates giving $1000 to charity is probably just sofa change.
Get the idea?

Jeff R said:

I guess if we didn't spend so much keeping freedom alive that maybe we could spend a little more for direct aid.
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No doubt.
As I was saying recently to someone who was dumping on the USA, - 'If it weren't for the Americans we'd all be speaking German now! Not once but twice!'
But beleive me, for every penny that was spent dividends were reeped aplenty. The US is a good country but don't be fooled by your political propoganda machines. It is nice to be patriotic, but don't be naive. Remember, there are no absolutes in life. The world is not black and white, but rather a million shades of gray.

And to put the record straight - I am vehemently opposed to your country's foreign policies vis-a-vis your withdrawal from the ABM treaty, Kyoto Accord, World Court participation and the general isolationist policies as espoused by Bush and his boss Chenney and I especially find the cowboy diplomacy of both Bush and Rumsfield, besides it being completely inappropriate, to be childish and immature and not very productive. And don't think for a minute that the problems the US is having on the world stage at this time is not related to the aforementioned attitudes.

But to return to the topic at hand:
What can we do to support peace.
Not much!

The US has already amassed close to 100,000 troops at the borders of Iraq. The money being spent is enormous. For them not to attack would be the biggest game of bluff the world and mankind has ever seen in all of history.
For the US troops to withdraw now would be a tremendous loss of face, i.e., political suicide.
War is inevitible unless of course the unforseen happens, viz., the millions of shades of gray.

For all you peaceniks out there (and I'm one of them) don't get discouraged. After all this is over there will be other wars to protest and disagree with. (Sad isn't it.)

pf
 
#696
I'm not here to pick a fight...

Senator bird is a racist and a bigot. He is simply regurgitating the current left wing rhetoric that is directed by criminals like Clinton and Carville. The only thing that would be impressive about this speech would be if he actually penned it himself. Have any of you researched this man's past transgressions? He is worse than Trent Lott--my senator. Everything said in his "speech" was to pander to weak-minded left-leaning independents to begin to sway their vote for his party's next run for the Whitehouse. Read the speech again and read it as the target for which it was written.

Staunchly Independent and proud of it,
 
#697
r byrd

well guy,

their seems to be a of of anger here in your words. yeah byrd has a past and he is the first to admit and also say how he has changed and grown. just like i am sure the g. "daddy" bush has grown since the days he ran as a goldwater repug and the "keep it a part" platform too. byrd is speaking from not only his heart but also his past and seeing what hate and rash judgment can and will bring. please remember the words of the good book. blessed is the peace maker. not bringer of war.

well that said need to check on the speaker section....

peace and sanity,

gary
 
#699
kelticwizard said:




Jeff, do you have any idea how many dictatorships there are in the world, compared to how many democracies? Thinking the way you do will get us involved in 50 different countries all at once. Sorry-the fact that a place is under a dictatorship does not mean that the US has to go busting in there and put things right.

If that is your major argument for going into Iraq-and that seems to be the one you are making-then forget it. That is unworkable.
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I had to laugh at your post. I mean, you have some elements of truth there, and your 1-800 example was wonderful. And, when I say laugh, it was a good kind of laugh, not disrespectful at all to you - you ask a good question in a funny way that is designed to get one to think. Yours is the kind of post I love to debate - friendly, respectful but with a little twist, and well thought out.

But, that said, I already answered your question. I have already stated that the US cannot - well, we could, actually - deal with all of the world's dictators and give freedom to all. We have to pick and chose based upon what that particular dictator is doing to us and the rest of the world; see what the rest of the world is doing about it and would support us doing; and weigh our chances of success, both militaristically and politically.

For example, North Korea is probably a bigger threat the Iraq right now, but guess what, North Korea has nuclear weapons and they would probably use them. So, we will probably spend the next 20 years negotiating and backing down and giving in. (If we don't stand up to Saddam now, this will be the situation with them in a few more years.) We could go after Libia again, but Kadafi, or however you spell his name, has been keeping pretty much to himself after Reagan let him have it. If we see him funding terrorists in a big way who are plotting against Americans, we may change our minds. If Saddam had simply come clean, his country would be sitting pretty good right now, but now that he is getting support from the peacenicks of the world, he will continue to hold out.

Let me ask you a question. If you were to happen upon a mass accident site, where dozens of people were hurt and injured and calling for your help, what would you do? Would you walk away because you couldn't help them all, or would you do what you can? By your own arguement, you would walk away.

So, no, the US is not about to go around the world and kick out dictators and install democracies. It might be a lofty goal, but just becasue we can't help all the people doesn't mean that, when the chance arises to help just one of many, we turn the one aside.

And is a democratic Iraq our primary reason for invading? Of course not. It is to oust Saddam in hopes to bring a longer term stabilization to the region and thwart terrorism. This might not all be achieved in the short term, but coddling dictators (and unfortunately the US has done this) is rarely good for long term stability.

Again, if we let Saddam off the hook now, do you doubt he will soon have nuclear weapons and threaten their use?
 
#700
NOT QUITE THE SAME.

Hi,

Again, if we let Saddam off the hook now, do you doubt he will soon have nuclear weapons and threaten their use?
Click to expand...

There is quite a difference between letting Saddam off the hook and saying that a war is over the top and quite likely won't solve the problem anyway.

Afghanistan has been bombed to shreds and still Osama Bin Laden can't be found?
That alone says enough IMO.

Cheers,😉
 
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