Re: Re: Re: Senator Byrd's speech
Yep, I made a blunder. No Swiss banks in Sweeden! Sorry! Long day. I indicated, in my own defense, that I was not sure if you were in NATO. But, I am a big boy, and I grew up near a farm, so call me an ignorant American cowboy.
Sorry you had to share info with us in the cold war. But, contrary to the purported neutrality, your country seems to support whichever side is to your own selfish advantage at the moment. Not that that is bad, as it helped your survive, but neither is it exactly honorable. I mean, would you give up a friend if a bully came over and told you to?
Just don't tell me Agnatha is not in Sweeden! I have been listening to some of her solo work today - beautiful. Even my kids love ABBA!
Christer said:
Yep, I made a blunder. No Swiss banks in Sweeden! Sorry! Long day. I indicated, in my own defense, that I was not sure if you were in NATO. But, I am a big boy, and I grew up near a farm, so call me an ignorant American cowboy.
Sorry you had to share info with us in the cold war. But, contrary to the purported neutrality, your country seems to support whichever side is to your own selfish advantage at the moment. Not that that is bad, as it helped your survive, but neither is it exactly honorable. I mean, would you give up a friend if a bully came over and told you to?
Just don't tell me Agnatha is not in Sweeden! I have been listening to some of her solo work today - beautiful. Even my kids love ABBA!
Re: Re: Re: Re: Senator Byrd's speech
Actually, I did not mean to complain about the info sharing. Your
country shared very advanced electronic equipment with us so
of course you should expect something in return. The reason
for this was probably a combination of our geographical location
and the fact that we have, or at least used to have, a very
good radio surveillance department. We broke the german
code at some point during the war, and passed this on
westwards. We knew about the Soviet invasion of Checkoslovakia
in 1968 about 24 hours before it happened. I am pretty sure
we passed this on to Pentagen ASAP.
As for our neutrality. No I don't think anyone is proud of the
war period, but maybe there isn't so much to blame either.
Contrary to most other european countries we were never
forced into the war. Sweden was important for Germany, but
not geographically, so it was much easier for them to trade with
us than to occupy us and it is hardly forbidden for a neutral
country to trade with a country at war. On the other hand, we
also let german troop trains through early in the war, but once
again, the Bush adm. has just been furious about another
neutral country not letting military trains through, so the US
can hardly blame us. However, another important and more
embarrasing thing is that un uncomfortably large number of
swedes supported Hitler during the early phase of the war.
We had problem with a strong pro-nazi opinion within
the country, although they were not in majority.
It has also been suggested by
a former military that before the truth about what happened in
Germany was known, it was considered that Soviet was a
greater threat to us than Nazi Germany, and that we might
have given some support to Germany for this reason. Anyway,
things changed, and the early V1 prototype that landed in
south of Sweden was shipped westwards for analysis.
She still lives in Sweden, but at an unknown location. It seems
the ABBA success was too much for her and she is very shy
nowadays and is very concerned about her privacy.
Jeff R said:
Actually, I did not mean to complain about the info sharing. Your
country shared very advanced electronic equipment with us so
of course you should expect something in return. The reason
for this was probably a combination of our geographical location
and the fact that we have, or at least used to have, a very
good radio surveillance department. We broke the german
code at some point during the war, and passed this on
westwards. We knew about the Soviet invasion of Checkoslovakia
in 1968 about 24 hours before it happened. I am pretty sure
we passed this on to Pentagen ASAP.
As for our neutrality. No I don't think anyone is proud of the
war period, but maybe there isn't so much to blame either.
Contrary to most other european countries we were never
forced into the war. Sweden was important for Germany, but
not geographically, so it was much easier for them to trade with
us than to occupy us and it is hardly forbidden for a neutral
country to trade with a country at war. On the other hand, we
also let german troop trains through early in the war, but once
again, the Bush adm. has just been furious about another
neutral country not letting military trains through, so the US
can hardly blame us. However, another important and more
embarrasing thing is that un uncomfortably large number of
swedes supported Hitler during the early phase of the war.
We had problem with a strong pro-nazi opinion within
the country, although they were not in majority.
It has also been suggested by
a former military that before the truth about what happened in
Germany was known, it was considered that Soviet was a
greater threat to us than Nazi Germany, and that we might
have given some support to Germany for this reason. Anyway,
things changed, and the early V1 prototype that landed in
south of Sweden was shipped westwards for analysis.
She still lives in Sweden, but at an unknown location. It seems
the ABBA success was too much for her and she is very shy
nowadays and is very concerned about her privacy.
You seem to have a deep problem in your thinking.To be weak in the sense as don´t be enabled to attac others is nothing to be ashame. It is stupid to invest in arms instead of education and health. Take a look to the statistics posted in this thread before, with information about human welfare in different countrys. Lets consider strong as opposite of weak. To be "strong" in this sense, and so to be enabled to attack others (like USA does) is nothing to be proud of. I really wonder i have to say this to a man who pretends to live in a civilisated country. If amerikans think this way we should hurry up sending UN inspectors to them, destroy the weapons we find them, and occupy US with approx. 200 Million of UN soldiers. After this we should make some great plans how to share the oil and ressources like US dollars we find there, give them some civilisated education, install a new democratic goverment.....
And if we stop watching "Hollywood and CNN" just for one month life will be les stressful than it is now. Les adrenalin and better dreams.😉
Just my two cents.😉
Trigon.
Just my two cents.😉
Trigon.
EDUCATING RITA.
Hi,
Funny how barbarians want to tell us European cultures and other civilised nations how to behave...
They don't even eat with knife and fork...
Culture, is it?
Yuk...Norma...gimme that Burger.
Ciao,😡
Hi,
Funny how barbarians want to tell us European cultures and other civilised nations how to behave...
They don't even eat with knife and fork...
Culture, is it?
Yuk...Norma...gimme that Burger.
Ciao,😡
i, for one, just can`t get over the level of disinformation coming out of the US; citizens, government and media.
have you all forgotten that you (the US) were extremely supportive of Saddam Hussien in his war with Iran? have you forgotten how your attempts to play both sides against the middle (and screw them all at the same time) in the middle east is the reason that your country is fanatically despised by much of the population in that region? why are you now pretending that you are aghast at the amount of killing that went on in the iran/iraq war when at the time you were gleefully cheering (in fact aiding both sides) them on. are you all deliberately obtuse?
have you forgotten the very mixed message your government was giving Saddam Hussein in the days leading up to the invasion of Kuwait?
yes, Saddam Hussein is a bad man. he is also very much a creation of the US`s confused and confusing foreign policy. now that he is no longer your despot du jour - you want to depose him. well, go ahead. stop whining about how no one supports your neo-colonialist policies. continue to behave the way you have been - reap the whirlwind. the fact that many nations find your policies nonsensical, dangerous and irresponsible shouldn`t deter you from further violence.
do you honestly believe that many in the middle east have no cause to despise you? that you have done nothing to earn their hatred? how can any one nation be so deliberately obtuse? how will more violence create a shift in the perception that the US in NOT interested in the welfare of that region? IS only interested
in oil.
i suggest you read what your own government and media were saying about Hussein in the 70`s and 80`s. contrast it to what they are saying now. remember that they are talking about many of the same events. just in fundamentally different ways.
where were you when Hussein was gassing the kurds? why aren`t you demanding that turkey 'reconsider' it`s policy towards the kurds? where are you while israel is behaving rather poorly to its palestinian population? where are you in dozens of other trouble spots world wide?
there is no nation on earth that is so dangerous as the one that believes in its own lies.
i honestly intended to stop posting in this thread. debate is pointless. the US is determined on a course of war and nothing will deflect it from that policy. i do not at this point believe that hussein could comply with the UN in a manner that will satisfy the US administration. the best the rest of the world can do is to attempt to minimize the fallout.
so just shut up and do it. my fervent hope is that the arab world will behave in a much saner fashion than your nation and not seek to enact revenge for what is truly an act of aggression against what is in reality a prostrate nation that poses little or no threat to the world community.
have you all forgotten that you (the US) were extremely supportive of Saddam Hussien in his war with Iran? have you forgotten how your attempts to play both sides against the middle (and screw them all at the same time) in the middle east is the reason that your country is fanatically despised by much of the population in that region? why are you now pretending that you are aghast at the amount of killing that went on in the iran/iraq war when at the time you were gleefully cheering (in fact aiding both sides) them on. are you all deliberately obtuse?
have you forgotten the very mixed message your government was giving Saddam Hussein in the days leading up to the invasion of Kuwait?
yes, Saddam Hussein is a bad man. he is also very much a creation of the US`s confused and confusing foreign policy. now that he is no longer your despot du jour - you want to depose him. well, go ahead. stop whining about how no one supports your neo-colonialist policies. continue to behave the way you have been - reap the whirlwind. the fact that many nations find your policies nonsensical, dangerous and irresponsible shouldn`t deter you from further violence.
do you honestly believe that many in the middle east have no cause to despise you? that you have done nothing to earn their hatred? how can any one nation be so deliberately obtuse? how will more violence create a shift in the perception that the US in NOT interested in the welfare of that region? IS only interested
in oil.
i suggest you read what your own government and media were saying about Hussein in the 70`s and 80`s. contrast it to what they are saying now. remember that they are talking about many of the same events. just in fundamentally different ways.
where were you when Hussein was gassing the kurds? why aren`t you demanding that turkey 'reconsider' it`s policy towards the kurds? where are you while israel is behaving rather poorly to its palestinian population? where are you in dozens of other trouble spots world wide?
there is no nation on earth that is so dangerous as the one that believes in its own lies.
i honestly intended to stop posting in this thread. debate is pointless. the US is determined on a course of war and nothing will deflect it from that policy. i do not at this point believe that hussein could comply with the UN in a manner that will satisfy the US administration. the best the rest of the world can do is to attempt to minimize the fallout.
so just shut up and do it. my fervent hope is that the arab world will behave in a much saner fashion than your nation and not seek to enact revenge for what is truly an act of aggression against what is in reality a prostrate nation that poses little or no threat to the world community.
if i read one more american posting about how he or she is so concerned about the civilian population of iraq i`m gonna puke.
how can you be so straight-facedly hypocritical? the kurds were gassed years ago - where was your concern then? the palestinians are being murdered by your ally the israelis AS WE SPEAK! where is your concern for them?
what a load of crap. if you are so concerned about how much the iraqi civilian population is suffering under sanctions why not work within the framework of those sanctions to alleviate some of that suffering?
might i remind you that before the gulf war iraq was praised by the US for being socially progressive? much more so than say the kingdoms of Saudi Arabia and kuwait? who i might add are your allies.
man if i ever needed an example of doublethink in action i need look no further than the present United States of America:
One Nation - guided by innuendo, lusting for revenge and united under surveillance.
just tell the whole sordid machiavellian truth. maybe then you will at least regain some respect for honesty.
please stop telling us that you (the US) are the beacon of freedom, truth and democracy as your nation can no longer lay claim to any of those traits.
how can you be so straight-facedly hypocritical? the kurds were gassed years ago - where was your concern then? the palestinians are being murdered by your ally the israelis AS WE SPEAK! where is your concern for them?
what a load of crap. if you are so concerned about how much the iraqi civilian population is suffering under sanctions why not work within the framework of those sanctions to alleviate some of that suffering?
might i remind you that before the gulf war iraq was praised by the US for being socially progressive? much more so than say the kingdoms of Saudi Arabia and kuwait? who i might add are your allies.
man if i ever needed an example of doublethink in action i need look no further than the present United States of America:
One Nation - guided by innuendo, lusting for revenge and united under surveillance.
just tell the whole sordid machiavellian truth. maybe then you will at least regain some respect for honesty.
please stop telling us that you (the US) are the beacon of freedom, truth and democracy as your nation can no longer lay claim to any of those traits.
till said:
Clever, Til, I like you! A well written response (unlike some others here).
My post you responded to was getting a little close to being personal, and I actually lost some sleep last night because of it. I don’t want to get personal here. We are all, I hope, friends, and we can fight and argue, but in the end we will remain bound by our love of audio electronics and our dream of world peace. I think you took my post the right way, but some others apparently did not as there are a couple of pretty vile responses to me. Perhaps I deserved it, so I hold no grudges.
Now, to my response. I am happy that some nations are able to spend little on defense so they can instead spend it on food, health care and social issues. I really am. I will leave it at that, as to say more may make it seem personal. I will just say that good friends will stick together though good and bad.
I don't think I said I am proud that we can go around attacking other countries. I don't think we have a history of simply going out an attacking just to be attacking, or to even gain land and resources and more power for an evil dictator. Last I checked, we have not annexed any foreign countries against their will for a very long time. Nor do we subjugate our people, gas them, deny basic civil rights, force them to invade other peaceful nations, etc.
I was amused at your idea of sending UN inspectors to the US! I know you meant it to be funny, so I will play out the game. Go on and send them here (that will keep the US and UN occupied so SH can invade Kuwait and Saudi Arabia). We will take the inspectors to some old, abandoned military bases (yes, we have these) and, when we are tired of the game, we will kick them out. Now, without some superpower to actually enforce the UN resolutions, what will the UN do? Go home, probably. You guys can protest. Wait, no you won’t. You only protest against nations who want to enforce the resolutions! Who will attempt to enforce these resolutions against the US? No one? So, yep, you would all go home.
This example actually shows how the UN is pretty much irrelevant today. Unless resolutions can be enforced, and only if the UN is prepared to enforce them, it is worthless. The French and Germans are having a grand old time beating up on Bush and the US, but without the good ole US, the UN has zero clout.
I keep asking here what the world and SH will do if the US backs down. I have challenged you to give a rational argument that SH will not get nukes and then go after Kuwait again and then Saudi Arabia, and threaten to blast Israel if anyone dares to attack him.
WHAT ARE THE ALTERNATIVES?
Really, people, I don't want war! Our economy over here is in the pits and this war is costing us billions. But, as I have said many times and no one has refuted, to fail to act now will only make it worse in the future.
Remember your history lessons, all you highly educated and civilized people out there. When has appeasement of aggressive dictators ever worked?
To Joe Dick-
Joe, you speak as though all Americans can be thought of as a single entity. You suggest that non of us have any concern for people (eg, the Iragi's). That attitude is also worthy of some puke.
We are all aware that the Kurds were gassed. I am truly disappointed that my country did nothing. I am also truly disappointed that other countries also did nothing.
The recent demonstrations across the globe would suggest to me that the world in composed of, for the most part, sane people (there are even some in the US).
My country has been accused of considering this war (which I hope does not happen) for economic (ie, oil) reasons. This may well be true. However, and I have not seen any posts making note of this, our friends from other countries (eg, Germany, France, Russia) are not without their own economic concerns in this issue.
It would be wrong for me to assume that all Germans, French, etc are hypocrites on this basis. It is also wrong for you to conclude that we are morally bankrupt because you disagree with US policy.
I would hope our next "conversation" could be about who will win the Stanley cup.
SteveA
Joe, you speak as though all Americans can be thought of as a single entity. You suggest that non of us have any concern for people (eg, the Iragi's). That attitude is also worthy of some puke.
We are all aware that the Kurds were gassed. I am truly disappointed that my country did nothing. I am also truly disappointed that other countries also did nothing.
The recent demonstrations across the globe would suggest to me that the world in composed of, for the most part, sane people (there are even some in the US).
My country has been accused of considering this war (which I hope does not happen) for economic (ie, oil) reasons. This may well be true. However, and I have not seen any posts making note of this, our friends from other countries (eg, Germany, France, Russia) are not without their own economic concerns in this issue.
It would be wrong for me to assume that all Germans, French, etc are hypocrites on this basis. It is also wrong for you to conclude that we are morally bankrupt because you disagree with US policy.
I would hope our next "conversation" could be about who will win the Stanley cup.
SteveA
We have a saying in my country that I'll try to translate:
"On the deaf's door knock as long as you want" (he won't answer)
"On the deaf's door knock as long as you want" (he won't answer)
leon said:
True. If some of the peacenicks here could see as far as their bloated, condensending egos...oops, I am getting personal, I said I wouldn't do that...let me rephrase.... 🙂 if some of these pro-Saddam protesters paid any attention to past history lessons, they would see the wisdom in the US position. When one confronts evil with appeasement, evil continues and grows stronger.
I keep knocking at the door, but everyone is out for tea.
🙂
SteveA said:
This would be the one and only thing that I would agree with Joe Dick about. Ottawa Senators all the way
Jeff-
My comments were as they related to the peaceful intentions of the demonstrators, not as to their support for Saddam.
Clearly Saddam should go. I guess the "just" of my response to Joe was that being in favor of ousting Saddam does not disqualify one from having a true concern for the Iragi people.
Steve
PS Minnesota Wild all the way.
My comments were as they related to the peaceful intentions of the demonstrators, not as to their support for Saddam.
Clearly Saddam should go. I guess the "just" of my response to Joe was that being in favor of ousting Saddam does not disqualify one from having a true concern for the Iragi people.
Steve
PS Minnesota Wild all the way.
Jeff R wrote:
fully agree. What i miss sometimes in europe and like on amerikans is the tolerance. I don´t say i´m in posses of final truth. But this is no reason to stay away from discussion and say what we think.
Its not easy to put into words, but again. I´m absolut against Mr Hussein. It´s very good to do something against him. I agree this will not work without using some military power. I disagree with some in the following points: The us has no right to do this without UN legitimation. If the USA makes a non defense war without UN legitimation this is called terror. And it should be tryed every way to act more clever than to throw thousands of tons of boms in a country and kill hundredthousand of civilians and harm the enviroment so that millions will be killed because of cancer resulting out of this enviromental damage.
And i belive Mr. Bush is the wrong person to be leader in the war. He is a mistake.
fully agree. What i miss sometimes in europe and like on amerikans is the tolerance. I don´t say i´m in posses of final truth. But this is no reason to stay away from discussion and say what we think.
Its not easy to put into words, but again. I´m absolut against Mr Hussein. It´s very good to do something against him. I agree this will not work without using some military power. I disagree with some in the following points: The us has no right to do this without UN legitimation. If the USA makes a non defense war without UN legitimation this is called terror. And it should be tryed every way to act more clever than to throw thousands of tons of boms in a country and kill hundredthousand of civilians and harm the enviroment so that millions will be killed because of cancer resulting out of this enviromental damage.
And i belive Mr. Bush is the wrong person to be leader in the war. He is a mistake.
I pride myself with always being open to suggestions and alternatives. There is a little test that I use to see if the position I have taken is one that I am supporting due to reason and fact, or emotion and dogma. What I do is ask myself "Is there anything that would change my mind?". If I answer no, then I sit down and re-evaluate that position and what my reasons are for supporting it. After all any position that is reached by fact and reasoning must be open to change based on new facts, evidence, or reasoning.
We have some people on both sides of the argument that are unwavering in their support for one side or another, unwilling to listen to reason.
On one side, If the UN were to vote in favor of going to war they would claim that the US forced the vote through policital pressure and buying off the other nations. If Sadam was found red handed with a nuclear weapon in the back of his car. They would claim that it was planted by the evil Americans
On the other side of the coin, Sadam could give in, come clean about the unnacounted materials from 1998. Turn over and destroy it all and comply fully with every resolution dating back to the end of the Gulf War. Yet still some would claim that it is all some ploy a part of Sadam's evil plan to attack the US, and that we still need to go in and get him.
It is this knee jerk, close minded, dogmatic, uncompromising attitude that is at the root of the bulk of the worlds problems. People "know" they are "right" and the rest are "wrong" and that nothing you could do or say could ever convince them otherwise.
We have some people on both sides of the argument that are unwavering in their support for one side or another, unwilling to listen to reason.
On one side, If the UN were to vote in favor of going to war they would claim that the US forced the vote through policital pressure and buying off the other nations. If Sadam was found red handed with a nuclear weapon in the back of his car. They would claim that it was planted by the evil Americans
On the other side of the coin, Sadam could give in, come clean about the unnacounted materials from 1998. Turn over and destroy it all and comply fully with every resolution dating back to the end of the Gulf War. Yet still some would claim that it is all some ploy a part of Sadam's evil plan to attack the US, and that we still need to go in and get him.
It is this knee jerk, close minded, dogmatic, uncompromising attitude that is at the root of the bulk of the worlds problems. People "know" they are "right" and the rest are "wrong" and that nothing you could do or say could ever convince them otherwise.
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