ppfred said:
isn`t that what i said in a previous post?
the soviet union produced over 40,000 examples of the t-34. that is still almost 4x the number of tanks listed by you in your post. and that is just the t-34. the soviet union produced many other, less famous and less successful designs. so yes, i still say that american and british and canadian aid to the soviet union was dwarfed by it`s own production.
anyway, as i have said, this isn`t a thread about WW2. also, believe what you like.
as someone said, this has nothing to do with the thread subject. But some amerikans need to do what they are told to do by US propaganda ageny. The weapons USA delivered to USSR in WW2 were 10% of all the weapons of USSR. Not so much. In WW2 USA lost about 300.000 soldiers. Ussr lost 20 000 000 soldiers. A high price....
The USSR position is, USA waited with invasion of Germany longer than necessary - the reason was they wanted the Russians to take the great losses of soldiers. And make the future enemy weak.
Another point is, USA did not loose money in WW2, and the were not aktive in the war because of altruistic reasons. This version only fits better in US propaganda TV. The USA was the overall stategic winner of WW2 but more important that days - it was the way to free the country from economical depression. New deal had failed but the war brougt full employmend. So we found the real reason for this war too?
The USSR position is, USA waited with invasion of Germany longer than necessary - the reason was they wanted the Russians to take the great losses of soldiers. And make the future enemy weak.
Another point is, USA did not loose money in WW2, and the were not aktive in the war because of altruistic reasons. This version only fits better in US propaganda TV. The USA was the overall stategic winner of WW2 but more important that days - it was the way to free the country from economical depression. New deal had failed but the war brougt full employmend. So we found the real reason for this war too?
till said:
You are right there. Why are we rehashing WWII?
New Deal did not fail. At the height of the Depression, in the early thirties, unemployment was approximately 25%. By 1940, it was down to 14%-not good, but a significant improvement. The US was already half out of the Depression and going in the right direction by the time the war in Europe was underway.
The war did spur the US economy, yes. But we were halfway out of the Depression already.
After several years of steady improvement, there was a jump in unemployment in 1938. But by the time the war in Europe started, it was headed steadily down again.
http://www.greatdepression.bravepages.com/
WWII is not the only reason that Franklin Delano Roosevelt is largely considered the greatest President of the Twentieth Century.
agree, i was not precise anough. It didn´t fail - it just worked not that good like the war as a economical program.
More important with this backgound - with a little look at the diagram above - everyone who has a brain should understand why Bush needs this war.
More important with this backgound - with a little look at the diagram above - everyone who has a brain should understand why Bush needs this war.
The new deal did fail
The new deal had nothing to do with the post war recovery. <p>Roosevelt put the economy into a recession within the depression by raising taxes in 1937. Too bad Milton Friedman was in short pants at the time, it was bad monetary management, compounded with a zealous anti-inflation fear which kept the economy depressed for a decade -- you know what the exact thing is happening in Japan since 1989.<p>Where were the French when the Germans were building their "pocket cruisers" -- this was a clear violation of the Versailles treaty and froggy decided to ignore it as they relied on the Maginot line for their salvation.
The new deal had nothing to do with the post war recovery. <p>Roosevelt put the economy into a recession within the depression by raising taxes in 1937. Too bad Milton Friedman was in short pants at the time, it was bad monetary management, compounded with a zealous anti-inflation fear which kept the economy depressed for a decade -- you know what the exact thing is happening in Japan since 1989.<p>Where were the French when the Germans were building their "pocket cruisers" -- this was a clear violation of the Versailles treaty and froggy decided to ignore it as they relied on the Maginot line for their salvation.
Altruism?
The likelyhood that any government will be altruistic to foreign countries is rediculous. They are elected to govern their own country, and to engage in a foreign policy to the best advantage of their electorate. "Old allies" are favoured only because they have shown favour in the past, and therefore might in future.
This is not about freeing the Iraqi people from tyrany; It's about political and financial advantage. If it were, why now, and why Iraq? There are many other tyranies.
As soon as my government comes clean about it's motives, I'll consider the case. Until then I don't follow lies.
Some even imagine that pittance of foreign aid sent to starving peoples is a gift. I suggest it is not. The recipients are chosen very carefully.
Am I cynical? Yes. But at least I have my eyes open.
The likelyhood that any government will be altruistic to foreign countries is rediculous. They are elected to govern their own country, and to engage in a foreign policy to the best advantage of their electorate. "Old allies" are favoured only because they have shown favour in the past, and therefore might in future.
This is not about freeing the Iraqi people from tyrany; It's about political and financial advantage. If it were, why now, and why Iraq? There are many other tyranies.
As soon as my government comes clean about it's motives, I'll consider the case. Until then I don't follow lies.
Some even imagine that pittance of foreign aid sent to starving peoples is a gift. I suggest it is not. The recipients are chosen very carefully.
Am I cynical? Yes. But at least I have my eyes open.
till said:
From all this propaganda talk it sounds as if you are from east germany. The US does not have a propaganda agency. We have a slew of journalists who twist their facts in order to sell news but most americans are used to that and we see right through. The initial weapons we delivered to Russia may have represented a small % over the course of the war, but they came at a time when Russia had inferior weapons and was running for her life. They were amazed that the P-39s we sold them had radios that worked because none of their planes had working radios. The number of American wounded may have approached 300,000 , but our dead didn't even hit 60,000. We lost more american soldiers in 3 days of fighting at Gettysburg than all of WWII. It has been shown historically that Eisenhower was not interested in beating the Russians to Berlin so what would his motive be? We took a reasonable amount of time to build up our invasion force for D-Day and still had a rough time of it. We had already given Stalin his second front in Africa and then Italy.
I don't like Bush or what he is doing, but I don't believe in pointing my backside at someone and waiting with the hopes that someone won't put something in it. You can be peaceful right up to your death but rest assured there will be someone willing to kill you. It's human nature. Man has fought himself since his inception and he's not going to stop now just because some of him have higher ideas.
I love the fact that young people have been pitching the peace thing for quite some time yet never seem to hold that idea as they age. The peace protesters of the 60's are in charge now. It gives you something to look forward to doesn't it. Even the idea of peace during the threat of war smacks of an ulterior motive.
There have been hundreds of tons of biological and chemical warefare agents dissapear in Iraq without a trace. Do you really believe they destroyed that which they fought so hard to hide while being inspected, when no one was looking? Tariq Aziz just threatened all of Europe while sitting right in front of the Pope.
I believe attacking Iraq is wrong and will probably bring more terrorrist acts upon the US, but to stand idly by and take it would shake the foundations that this country was built upon and cause my forfathers to turn in their graves. I really don't care what the rest of the world says or does, because in saying or doing so you become just as hypocritical as the US. Congratulations, you,ve become what you despise.
kelticwizard said:
That is probably the simplest question asked so far in this
thread. The answer seems to be that as soon as we try
discussing Iraq, some american will bring up WWII and
the US involvement in Europe and try to change the topic
to this one. Why they are doing so I can only speculate about,
so I shall refrain from trying to answer that one.
PassFan,
I´m not, you could have checked this easy by doing a search for my location.
I´m genuine west german.
If you call the numbers i posted propaganda, i only used a search engine on the topics posted earlyer. The sources for these numbers are from the web and not necessarily german or german propaganda. I wasn´t there i dont know whats true - but i´m sure the USA does as much lie and propaganda as the Russians.
Yes the USA has:
http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/
If iraq really is dangerous for europe - you should leave it to europe to do defense. At the moment Bush seems to be more dangerous than Saddam.
I´m not, you could have checked this easy by doing a search for my location.
I´m genuine west german.
If you call the numbers i posted propaganda, i only used a search engine on the topics posted earlyer. The sources for these numbers are from the web and not necessarily german or german propaganda. I wasn´t there i dont know whats true - but i´m sure the USA does as much lie and propaganda as the Russians.
Yes the USA has:
http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/
If iraq really is dangerous for europe - you should leave it to europe to do defense. At the moment Bush seems to be more dangerous than Saddam.
the problem with Europe defending itself
is that it can't
perhaps we should have left West Berlin fall to the Soviets instead of airlifting foodstuffs to them.
Europe sat on its collective derriere while genocide raged in the Balkans and it was only through a permuted NATO (note, not UN) resolution that the slaughter was brought to a halt.
most of European defense expenditures go for an aging military force -- more social welfare -- very little for modern armaments -- the Wall Street Journal just did an article on this two weeks ago.
is that it can't
perhaps we should have left West Berlin fall to the Soviets instead of airlifting foodstuffs to them.
Europe sat on its collective derriere while genocide raged in the Balkans and it was only through a permuted NATO (note, not UN) resolution that the slaughter was brought to a halt.
most of European defense expenditures go for an aging military force -- more social welfare -- very little for modern armaments -- the Wall Street Journal just did an article on this two weeks ago.
At the moment europe has only one really dangerous risk it must defend against. It´s the risk to be pulled into WW3 by Mr madman G. Bush. Iraq isn´t dangerous for us. Its only dangerous for people living in iraq and for Bush family members ego.
USA should think very well before doing some mess. We will see if they a) are able to buy us (see 30Mrd. for the turks) and b) will be able to play wargames without us. What i hear from there is a lot of ridicolous hubris.
Europe bashing?
As far as I can see, one of the best equipped in Europe (UK) is the most dangerous.
Yawn... If the horse had not stumbled....
Yup, as the rest of the world has (incl US) for other genocides. I'm not justifying it though.
There is variability from country to country. At least in most of them we don't have to take out a 2nd mortgage for medical treatment.....although it's coming to the UK by stealth🙁
As far as I can see, one of the best equipped in Europe (UK) is the most dangerous.
I´m not, you could have checked this easy by doing a search for my location.
I´m genuine west german.
1) Then you would assume I'm actually from the USA and not some other country. Would a search have actually told me what part of the world you were born in? Your post gave the impression that you felt you'd been watched all your life.
If you call the numbers i posted propaganda, i only used a search engine on the topics posted earlyer. The sources for these numbers are from the web and not necessarily german or german propaganda. I wasn´t there i dont know whats true - but i´m sure the USA does as much lie and propaganda as the Russians.
2) I never at any time called anything in your post propaganda and that word is not normally used as much in the western hemisphere.
Yes the USA has:
http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/
3) I would refer you back to my comment about the American press. We basically view this in the same way. Try to find an American that listens to or pays this any mind. I didn't even know they had a web site. Why are you so up on this? Do you think they're watching you?
4) Yes I agree, Bush is more dangerous than Saddam and as far as I'm concerned you can have both of them. He could very well start the war to end all wars, but I wouldn't let Europe as a whole be responsible for anything. They sat and watched while germany marched into poland, and they sat and watched while thousands died in yugoslovia. It reminds me of what an ostrich does when he feels threatened, and left up to Europe the end result would be the same it would merely need to be drug out.
I´m genuine west german.
1) Then you would assume I'm actually from the USA and not some other country. Would a search have actually told me what part of the world you were born in? Your post gave the impression that you felt you'd been watched all your life.
If you call the numbers i posted propaganda, i only used a search engine on the topics posted earlyer. The sources for these numbers are from the web and not necessarily german or german propaganda. I wasn´t there i dont know whats true - but i´m sure the USA does as much lie and propaganda as the Russians.
2) I never at any time called anything in your post propaganda and that word is not normally used as much in the western hemisphere.
Yes the USA has:
http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/
3) I would refer you back to my comment about the American press. We basically view this in the same way. Try to find an American that listens to or pays this any mind. I didn't even know they had a web site. Why are you so up on this? Do you think they're watching you?
4) Yes I agree, Bush is more dangerous than Saddam and as far as I'm concerned you can have both of them. He could very well start the war to end all wars, but I wouldn't let Europe as a whole be responsible for anything. They sat and watched while germany marched into poland, and they sat and watched while thousands died in yugoslovia. It reminds me of what an ostrich does when he feels threatened, and left up to Europe the end result would be the same it would merely need to be drug out.
till said:
You are assuming the US needs germany. The last time the US played real war I believe it was with germany was it not? And did the US not come in and help put germany back together? And does the US still have troops in germany left over from a promise to defend her and the rest of europe? So how does it feel to be defeated and dependant. And why does the US still have troops in germany? They should pull them out. The german people have a deep seeded history of hate and war and bloodshed going back to before the time of the goths. It is good to see them so full of yearnings for peace. It's a delightful change, don't you think
🙄
Christer said:
It may also be interesting to note that an American engineer designed the suspension and road wheel system on the T-34 tank and it was used on later models as well.
🙂
Think more before posting. This is nonsense.
And a german nation stated to exist about 150years before now. There is no cultural homogen history of germans until now. Yoe want to provocate without sense --> a case for sinbin, or you are a little short of brain --- > go, read and learn.
war is always good for rich people, leaders,politicians, criminals and so on. If you talk about peoples, germans or what nation ever, they are alway victims of war. Right now US citicens are victims of Bushs war too - look what happens to freedom and cilvil rights in USA right now.
Go and get yourshelf a little education - read a little Berthold Brecht for a beginning.
WW II
Hi,
The U.S. negotiated to have military bases in Germany so Germany wouldn't go back to war.
Yes, the U.S. played bank to Germany so the country could be rebuild...being bombed flat and with the entire industry destroyed Germany than had the most modern facilities throughout Europe and was back on it's feet as the most powerful economic power in Europe.
This was all paid for with the Marshall plan that provided a long term insurance policy to the U.S and still provides advantages to U.S. today....
Stop whining...pleeeease.
Cheers,😉
Hi,
The U.S. negotiated to have military bases in Germany so Germany wouldn't go back to war.
Yes, the U.S. played bank to Germany so the country could be rebuild...being bombed flat and with the entire industry destroyed Germany than had the most modern facilities throughout Europe and was back on it's feet as the most powerful economic power in Europe.
This was all paid for with the Marshall plan that provided a long term insurance policy to the U.S and still provides advantages to U.S. today....
Stop whining...pleeeease.
Cheers,😉
Propaganda, eh?
Man, don't you love revisionist history?
The chart you posted has a fatal flaw: the outgoing administration was using "creative accounting" with the "surplus vs. deficit" column. I lived here in those so-called "greatest propsperity in history" years, and I can attest to the falsehood (as millions of others can as well) of these claims.
Have you ever watched children argue? The first thing they do is point fingers at each other. The second thing is usually insults. The third part is usually a barrage of taunts and mantras. I guess some habits are hard to break.
till said:
Man, don't you love revisionist history?
The chart you posted has a fatal flaw: the outgoing administration was using "creative accounting" with the "surplus vs. deficit" column. I lived here in those so-called "greatest propsperity in history" years, and I can attest to the falsehood (as millions of others can as well) of these claims.
Have you ever watched children argue? The first thing they do is point fingers at each other. The second thing is usually insults. The third part is usually a barrage of taunts and mantras. I guess some habits are hard to break.
hehehe
so there! nu-uh! did not! did too!
I'd wager that the sparks would REALLY get flying in here if Hans Blix would reveal that Saddam cannot account for the thousands of MOSFETS and NOS 300B's he has buried in the desert!
so there! nu-uh! did not! did too!
I'd wager that the sparks would REALLY get flying in here if Hans Blix would reveal that Saddam cannot account for the thousands of MOSFETS and NOS 300B's he has buried in the desert!
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