There are winners... the people living in the next town down the road past the front lines where the invading army was stopped. The people in the next town scheduled for the next spray pattern of a bio-weapon until the secret weapons plant is bombed by a NATO plane.
Just wondering, what's exactly Hussein's conection with terrorism (let alone, 9/11 attack)? I've been following this issue on media a lot lately, and i still can't understand how the American people put up with it. See, like it or not bombing Irak won't solve your problems... not those at least. All this issue revolves arround oil price control, this is crystal clear to everyone i beleive (the rest of the world watching included). How many lives is your oil worth?
What can you do? Well, don't endorse a course of action you don't approve! The only thing holding military action so far were congress aproval and public acceptance. I just heard the US congress will support Bush's decision of attacking Irak. Both your president and your congress should work for *YOU*, let them know you're not happy!
What can you do? Well, don't endorse a course of action you don't approve! The only thing holding military action so far were congress aproval and public acceptance. I just heard the US congress will support Bush's decision of attacking Irak. Both your president and your congress should work for *YOU*, let them know you're not happy!
Re: Re: How many funerals did you go to after 9/11?
Why should we strike? The burden of proof is on IRAQ, after the gulf war they signed a treaty which required them to disarm. It is up to them to prove that they done so. To date, they have not. if it takes force, so be it.
Also a note on brainwashing... ...how do you know you are also not brainwashed? Where are you getting your information?
Some things really concern me here. It seem that many europeans are afraid to stand up for what is right. I can understand not wanting a war because of the devistation of the world wars your own soil. But it bothers me is that you would stand by, and let the same thing happen again.
Something that also bothers me, is the fact that there are groups of people who want to kill me, simply because I am an American. We know this is the case, Sept 11th was a big awakening, and an act of WAR. I simply won't stand by and allow my country to be attacked. If it comes down to it, I'll pick up a weapon and fight. I'll fight if a war is started, and I'll fight to prevent a country from attacking. Don't get me wrong, I love peace, and I don't want war. But I would kill to protect my family, and my fellow countrymen. I would fight anyone who would try to prevent me from doing so.
Why are so many euorpeans afraid feel the same way? Is there no pride in your way of life? Is there no concern for your own safety, or that of your Sons and Daughters? Would you let others hate you because you live life the way you want? Would you let others kill you because you live your life how you want?
I live a simple life, and love being an american, and people hate me because of it. Why is that? What have I done to provoke such anger? Please, someone tell me, what have I done?
-Dan
halo, I agree war is bad. But, often times the only thing you can do to prevent violence is to fight. There is a big difference in fighting to protect people, and fighting to oppress people. I carry a gun, even in my own country, to protect my wife and myself. It's my right and my obligation.
fdegrove said:
Christer said:
Why should we strike? The burden of proof is on IRAQ, after the gulf war they signed a treaty which required them to disarm. It is up to them to prove that they done so. To date, they have not. if it takes force, so be it.
Also a note on brainwashing... ...how do you know you are also not brainwashed? Where are you getting your information?
Some things really concern me here. It seem that many europeans are afraid to stand up for what is right. I can understand not wanting a war because of the devistation of the world wars your own soil. But it bothers me is that you would stand by, and let the same thing happen again.
Something that also bothers me, is the fact that there are groups of people who want to kill me, simply because I am an American. We know this is the case, Sept 11th was a big awakening, and an act of WAR. I simply won't stand by and allow my country to be attacked. If it comes down to it, I'll pick up a weapon and fight. I'll fight if a war is started, and I'll fight to prevent a country from attacking. Don't get me wrong, I love peace, and I don't want war. But I would kill to protect my family, and my fellow countrymen. I would fight anyone who would try to prevent me from doing so.
Why are so many euorpeans afraid feel the same way? Is there no pride in your way of life? Is there no concern for your own safety, or that of your Sons and Daughters? Would you let others hate you because you live life the way you want? Would you let others kill you because you live your life how you want?
I live a simple life, and love being an american, and people hate me because of it. Why is that? What have I done to provoke such anger? Please, someone tell me, what have I done?
-Dan
halo, I agree war is bad. But, often times the only thing you can do to prevent violence is to fight. There is a big difference in fighting to protect people, and fighting to oppress people. I carry a gun, even in my own country, to protect my wife and myself. It's my right and my obligation.
I think everybody involved in a war is a loser in one way or
another, except, perhaps, for some scrupulous politicians and
businessmen who can use it to their favour. Some of the losers
are lucky survivors, however, which is something quite different
from being a winner. However, I do think europeans and
americans tend to think quite differently about such terms as
winners and losers, at least that is my experience from
discussions with american friends. We also see such tendencies
when Bush talks about good and evil in sweeping
simplifications, which sounds more like a child talking than a
president to some of us on this side of the Atlantic.
NB, these are generalisations, and do not apply to all
individuals, of course.
another, except, perhaps, for some scrupulous politicians and
businessmen who can use it to their favour. Some of the losers
are lucky survivors, however, which is something quite different
from being a winner. However, I do think europeans and
americans tend to think quite differently about such terms as
winners and losers, at least that is my experience from
discussions with american friends. We also see such tendencies
when Bush talks about good and evil in sweeping
simplifications, which sounds more like a child talking than a
president to some of us on this side of the Atlantic.
NB, these are generalisations, and do not apply to all
individuals, of course.
RE:OIL
Hi,
For how long the oilreserves will suffice to keep up with demand?
All the technology to use other energy sources is there already for at least fifty years...
Really,I don't think Iraqi oilreserves are the only reason.
Saying that Iraq is not at least supporting the anti-american movement in the Arab world would be the understatement of the millennium however.
Whether or not this country was directly involved in the tragic 9/11 event remains to be seen.
Naturally,if the U.S were to take away the oilreserves from the Arabs,they would be left without further resources,wouldn't they?
Peace,😉
Hi,
For how long the oilreserves will suffice to keep up with demand?
All the technology to use other energy sources is there already for at least fifty years...
Really,I don't think Iraqi oilreserves are the only reason.
Saying that Iraq is not at least supporting the anti-american movement in the Arab world would be the understatement of the millennium however.
Whether or not this country was directly involved in the tragic 9/11 event remains to be seen.
Naturally,if the U.S were to take away the oilreserves from the Arabs,they would be left without further resources,wouldn't they?
Peace,😉
"What can we do to Support Peace in our Neighbourhood?"
Getting rid of all those dreadfull sounding aluminium horn PA speakers that call all those in the Muslim countries to morning prayer, would be of world community benefit.
I reckon that if I were woken by those things every morning at 4.30 AM, I would have an antagonistic view of the world as well.
My view is that they are even worse to wake up to than the rottenest clock/radio that you have ever heard or woken to, and I think we all know how that can affect your day.
What was the custom before the invention and advent of electronic PA systems ?.
Eric / - The world needs good sound.
Getting rid of all those dreadfull sounding aluminium horn PA speakers that call all those in the Muslim countries to morning prayer, would be of world community benefit.
I reckon that if I were woken by those things every morning at 4.30 AM, I would have an antagonistic view of the world as well.
My view is that they are even worse to wake up to than the rottenest clock/radio that you have ever heard or woken to, and I think we all know how that can affect your day.
What was the custom before the invention and advent of electronic PA systems ?.
Eric / - The world needs good sound.
Christer
scrupulous or un ?
may I remind our European correspondents that nothing was done to stop the genocide in Bosnia until the US took NATO by the ear and forced them to take action, kicking, screaming and postulating the whole time.
wake me up when the French win a war (it's been well over 300 years now.) They're doing such a good job keeping civilisation intact in the Cote d'Ivoire right now.
scrupulous or un ?
may I remind our European correspondents that nothing was done to stop the genocide in Bosnia until the US took NATO by the ear and forced them to take action, kicking, screaming and postulating the whole time.
wake me up when the French win a war (it's been well over 300 years now.) They're doing such a good job keeping civilisation intact in the Cote d'Ivoire right now.
GUNS & ROSES.
Hi,
Dan,
Having to have a firearm in the house does say a lot already about the environment you have to put up with.
Maybe your local government should do something about that situation first?
We used to live with unlocked doors in Europe not too long ago...I wonder what happened?
All,
Christer expresses the European spirit eloquently.
The most unfortunate tragedy of the past century was former Yugoslavia,IMO at least as tragic and scandalous as WWII.
What most people are unfamiliar with though is the Arab culture which is totally different from either European or Anglosaxon culture.
These people can get fanatic about what *they* feel is right beyond belief.
Witness the ongoing war between Israel and Palestine and you'll get some idea.
Cheers,😉
Hi,
Dan,
Having to have a firearm in the house does say a lot already about the environment you have to put up with.
Maybe your local government should do something about that situation first?
We used to live with unlocked doors in Europe not too long ago...I wonder what happened?
All,
Christer expresses the European spirit eloquently.
The most unfortunate tragedy of the past century was former Yugoslavia,IMO at least as tragic and scandalous as WWII.
What most people are unfamiliar with though is the Arab culture which is totally different from either European or Anglosaxon culture.
These people can get fanatic about what *they* feel is right beyond belief.
Witness the ongoing war between Israel and Palestine and you'll get some idea.
Cheers,😉
Re: Re: Re: How many funerals did you go to after 9/11?
Well, if you have something, it is quite easy to prove that you
do have it. If you don't have it, it can be quite difficult to prove
that you don't have it. I am not very familiar with all the details
in this matter, but so far all I have seen in the media is rhetorics
from Bush claiming there is proof against Iraq, but we are still
waiting for the proof itself. I repeat what I said above, if the US
has such proof and can tell the inspection teams where to
go, it would change the situation dramatically. Findings by the
inspectors would probably give the US much much more support
for a military solution, yet Bush seems to prefer to strike without
too much concern about support from the UN. Puzzling.
As for brainwashing, well that might be a strong word perhaps,
and it was someone else who brought it up. I am just worried
by this attitude some americans have where they claim "it is
right" to attack Iraq and seem to consider everyone not agreeing
with this as hostile or stupid. It is quite a different thing to say
" that it is ones opinion that it is right" to attack Iraq, which
acknowledges other peoples right to have a different opinion.
Note also that this different opinion need not necessarily be to
think that it is wrong to attack. There are many shades of grey
in between, depending on the outcome of the inspections, what
Powell will have to say on Feb. 5th etc. Unfortunately, you are
one of those who are so convinced that you opinion is right,
that you cannot accept others questioning it.
The terrorism is quite another thing, at least until there is
proof of a connection between Iraq and al Queda. I was truly
chocked by the events of sep 11 and it also filled me with anger
against the people repsonsible. Although I can to some extent
understand what they did, if trying to see it from their point of
view, I do not for one second accept their point of view. There
is no excuse for what they did. I am also quite worried by all
indications on attempted and prevented terror attacks here in
Europe, and we also lost a number of swedish people in the
Bali bomb attacks. The fight against terrorism is a very high
priority, not only for the western world, but also for the muslim
world, i think, since there is danger that the islamic terrorism
will in the end lead to a war between the western world and
the muslim world, and sometimes I fear that is exactly what
al Queda is trying to provoke. Let's not forget, however, that
a war against Iraq will most likely be used by al Queada as
an excuse for new terror attacks.
dkemppai said:
Well, if you have something, it is quite easy to prove that you
do have it. If you don't have it, it can be quite difficult to prove
that you don't have it. I am not very familiar with all the details
in this matter, but so far all I have seen in the media is rhetorics
from Bush claiming there is proof against Iraq, but we are still
waiting for the proof itself. I repeat what I said above, if the US
has such proof and can tell the inspection teams where to
go, it would change the situation dramatically. Findings by the
inspectors would probably give the US much much more support
for a military solution, yet Bush seems to prefer to strike without
too much concern about support from the UN. Puzzling.
As for brainwashing, well that might be a strong word perhaps,
and it was someone else who brought it up. I am just worried
by this attitude some americans have where they claim "it is
right" to attack Iraq and seem to consider everyone not agreeing
with this as hostile or stupid. It is quite a different thing to say
" that it is ones opinion that it is right" to attack Iraq, which
acknowledges other peoples right to have a different opinion.
Note also that this different opinion need not necessarily be to
think that it is wrong to attack. There are many shades of grey
in between, depending on the outcome of the inspections, what
Powell will have to say on Feb. 5th etc. Unfortunately, you are
one of those who are so convinced that you opinion is right,
that you cannot accept others questioning it.
The terrorism is quite another thing, at least until there is
proof of a connection between Iraq and al Queda. I was truly
chocked by the events of sep 11 and it also filled me with anger
against the people repsonsible. Although I can to some extent
understand what they did, if trying to see it from their point of
view, I do not for one second accept their point of view. There
is no excuse for what they did. I am also quite worried by all
indications on attempted and prevented terror attacks here in
Europe, and we also lost a number of swedish people in the
Bali bomb attacks. The fight against terrorism is a very high
priority, not only for the western world, but also for the muslim
world, i think, since there is danger that the islamic terrorism
will in the end lead to a war between the western world and
the muslim world, and sometimes I fear that is exactly what
al Queda is trying to provoke. Let's not forget, however, that
a war against Iraq will most likely be used by al Queada as
an excuse for new terror attacks.
Trigon,
Yes,even the survivors in FRY are winners. If you asked them if they would rather be dead, I don't think you would get many affirmations. You think they would rather be still fighting for their lives, shelled by morters or shot at by snipers on a daily basis. I haven't heard any protests or complaints about the US involvement in the Bosnian/Serbian conflict either.
Yes,even the survivors in FRY are winners. If you asked them if they would rather be dead, I don't think you would get many affirmations. You think they would rather be still fighting for their lives, shelled by morters or shot at by snipers on a daily basis. I haven't heard any protests or complaints about the US involvement in the Bosnian/Serbian conflict either.
Re: Christer
I admit to not remembering the details around the war in
Bosnia and, as I previously said, do not complain with the
military actions there in general. As Frank said, the events
in Bosnia and later Kosovo are a sad chapter in modern
European history, having its roots in events going as far back
as the collapse of the roman empire some 1600 years ago.
I think maybe most europeans were taken by such surprise
and chock that something like that could happen again in
Europe that we didn't quite realise what was happening.
And yes, most european countries have behaved badly at various
times in history, my own country being quite blood-thirsty if
going back a few hundred years in history, and our somewhat
questionable version of neutrality during WWII often questioned
by other countries. I am just a bit tired with the common
american view that the US has done nothing wrong and always
been the nice guys helping others with their armed forces. War
is always dirty business politically. For instance, I may
misremember my history, but were there any american troops
in Europe before the germans started retreating on the eastern
front? I don't think so. So, did US come here to save us from
the nazis, or to prevent that Soviet ended up controlling
the whole of Europe? The real answer is probably both complex
and difficult to find out with certainty, but questions like this
show that nothing is quite as simple as it may seem from our
history books.
jackinnj said:
I admit to not remembering the details around the war in
Bosnia and, as I previously said, do not complain with the
military actions there in general. As Frank said, the events
in Bosnia and later Kosovo are a sad chapter in modern
European history, having its roots in events going as far back
as the collapse of the roman empire some 1600 years ago.
I think maybe most europeans were taken by such surprise
and chock that something like that could happen again in
Europe that we didn't quite realise what was happening.
And yes, most european countries have behaved badly at various
times in history, my own country being quite blood-thirsty if
going back a few hundred years in history, and our somewhat
questionable version of neutrality during WWII often questioned
by other countries. I am just a bit tired with the common
american view that the US has done nothing wrong and always
been the nice guys helping others with their armed forces. War
is always dirty business politically. For instance, I may
misremember my history, but were there any american troops
in Europe before the germans started retreating on the eastern
front? I don't think so. So, did US come here to save us from
the nazis, or to prevent that Soviet ended up controlling
the whole of Europe? The real answer is probably both complex
and difficult to find out with certainty, but questions like this
show that nothing is quite as simple as it may seem from our
history books.
Christer,
What you say is true with just about every country in the world. We all have our dirty past. I am deeply saddened everytime I am reminded how early settlers treated the North American Indians, islanders from the Carribbean, and Blacks from Africa. I still won't watch movies that depict these people in the same light we held them during that time.
Actually, the US was long involved before the retreat on the Eastern front. The long very cold winter of '43 and the US and UK bombing runs destroying the supply trains had the biggest effect on Germany's push. They were well into Russia (Stalingrad) before Russia was able to rally and push them back reclaiming what was left of Leningrad four months later.
What you say is true with just about every country in the world. We all have our dirty past. I am deeply saddened everytime I am reminded how early settlers treated the North American Indians, islanders from the Carribbean, and Blacks from Africa. I still won't watch movies that depict these people in the same light we held them during that time.
Actually, the US was long involved before the retreat on the Eastern front. The long very cold winter of '43 and the US and UK bombing runs destroying the supply trains had the biggest effect on Germany's push. They were well into Russia (Stalingrad) before Russia was able to rally and push them back reclaiming what was left of Leningrad four months later.
What to do
I agree completely Eric.
On a more serious note, though, I don't believe it is possible to believe the propoganda from any side. How can you know the truth without knowing and trusting the source of the information is pure and unadulterated? So what do you do? How do you choose a path?
IMO the US should set an example to the rest of the world and only act with the blessing of the entire UN - a total worldwide commitment to achieving the <i>same</i> goals must be enacted. Unity or nothing. What a terrible destabalising precedent would it set for a (powerful) member of the UN to go to war without the backing of the others.
Lead by example.
I agree completely Eric.
On a more serious note, though, I don't believe it is possible to believe the propoganda from any side. How can you know the truth without knowing and trusting the source of the information is pure and unadulterated? So what do you do? How do you choose a path?
IMO the US should set an example to the rest of the world and only act with the blessing of the entire UN - a total worldwide commitment to achieving the <i>same</i> goals must be enacted. Unity or nothing. What a terrible destabalising precedent would it set for a (powerful) member of the UN to go to war without the backing of the others.
Lead by example.
Ah, Those Principled Europeans
Great article from today's NY Times:
Kind of explains some of the general disagreement between the American contingent and our European friends.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/02/opinion/02FRIE.html
Great article from today's NY Times:
Kind of explains some of the general disagreement between the American contingent and our European friends.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/02/opinion/02FRIE.html
Re: GUNS & ROSES.
Hi,
I will explain this to you. In your socitey, guns may have been made out to be a violent object, or you are probably discouraged to carry or even own a gun. I understand that you may look down on me for owning, or carrying such a tool. But, even if you don't agree with my decision, you need to understand why.
I live in an area where I leave my door unlocked. (I lock it at night because it is common sense to do so) We have gone months without locking the back door day or night. I feel safe enough to leave my keys in my truck, and leave my truck running unattended, doors unlocked. My father never removes his keys from his car, at work or at home. I also have never removed the keys from my motorcycles. I have nothing to fear in my community, or at my place of work.
I'm sure you are questioning why I carry a gun then? I carry a gun, because it is my right to do so. I carry a gun to watch out for my neighbors and to help protect them as well as my wife and self. To keep this level of safety in my community is exactly why I choose to carry a gun. My neighbors watch out for me, and I for them. This why I will never have to worry about the safety of my wife and myself. My neighbors have nothing to fear as well. This is why I choose to proudly own and carry a gun.
Also,
Let me ask I hypothetical quesiton. If you were a criminal, and were looking for a house to rob and had a choice of two towns:
Town A: Where no weapons of any kind are avaliable, and any persons carrying a weapon are repremanded.
Town B: A town where every person was encouraged to carry a weapon, and have several in their homes.
Which town would you choose to rob? It is the threat of violence that prevents violence.
So, why is it that you need to lock your doors? Maybe there is something wrong there?
-Dan
Also, calling all Austrailians... ...what are your gun laws like, and how are your crime rates now?
P.S. if you would like to carry this converstaion on in private email, please feel free to mail me. It is not my intention to change the views and opinions of those on this thread, but rather open your mind to my views and opinions.
fdegrove said:
Hi,
I will explain this to you. In your socitey, guns may have been made out to be a violent object, or you are probably discouraged to carry or even own a gun. I understand that you may look down on me for owning, or carrying such a tool. But, even if you don't agree with my decision, you need to understand why.
I live in an area where I leave my door unlocked. (I lock it at night because it is common sense to do so) We have gone months without locking the back door day or night. I feel safe enough to leave my keys in my truck, and leave my truck running unattended, doors unlocked. My father never removes his keys from his car, at work or at home. I also have never removed the keys from my motorcycles. I have nothing to fear in my community, or at my place of work.
I'm sure you are questioning why I carry a gun then? I carry a gun, because it is my right to do so. I carry a gun to watch out for my neighbors and to help protect them as well as my wife and self. To keep this level of safety in my community is exactly why I choose to carry a gun. My neighbors watch out for me, and I for them. This why I will never have to worry about the safety of my wife and myself. My neighbors have nothing to fear as well. This is why I choose to proudly own and carry a gun.
Also,
Let me ask I hypothetical quesiton. If you were a criminal, and were looking for a house to rob and had a choice of two towns:
Town A: Where no weapons of any kind are avaliable, and any persons carrying a weapon are repremanded.
Town B: A town where every person was encouraged to carry a weapon, and have several in their homes.
Which town would you choose to rob? It is the threat of violence that prevents violence.
So, why is it that you need to lock your doors? Maybe there is something wrong there?
-Dan
Also, calling all Austrailians... ...what are your gun laws like, and how are your crime rates now?
P.S. if you would like to carry this converstaion on in private email, please feel free to mail me. It is not my intention to change the views and opinions of those on this thread, but rather open your mind to my views and opinions.
Re: Re: GUNS &amp; ROSES.
I honestly don't know.. All I know is that I am NOT going to war... Our crime rates are fairly low if you ask me... I think having firearms illigal is a good idea, Apart from the occasional crazp person shooting someone else, there isn't any armed robberies, or mass murders.... Some people kill themselves, at school, standing on a balcony, in full view of people.........
dkemppai said:
I honestly don't know.. All I know is that I am NOT going to war... Our crime rates are fairly low if you ask me... I think having firearms illigal is a good idea, Apart from the occasional crazp person shooting someone else, there isn't any armed robberies, or mass murders.... Some people kill themselves, at school, standing on a balcony, in full view of people.........
Re: Re: GUNS &amp; ROSES.
Is it also your right to take someone elses life? This is what gun is for, isn't it? 😉
I was much into guns and knives when I was a kid, but where I am now, I don't see any interest in those things anymore. Those are the tools of destruction, and I'm much more into creating nowadays.😉
dkemppai said:
Is it also your right to take someone elses life? This is what gun is for, isn't it? 😉
I was much into guns and knives when I was a kid, but where I am now, I don't see any interest in those things anymore. Those are the tools of destruction, and I'm much more into creating nowadays.😉
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