Support Peace! What can WE do....??

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#525
till said:

and we should be naiv enough to belive this? Why shouldn´t f.e. Switzerland hold it in trust?
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I for one would be all for that. Too bad they're not offering. It would also be great if some of the peace activists now headed for Iraq to act as human shields would also work to protect Iraqi civilians from Saddam's secret police (who to date have killed many more people than American bombs). But they're not. There are lots of things that the world community could do to improve the current and future situation in Iraq, and by doing so they would deflate any of the humanitiarian arguments that can be made for a US-led invasion. Sadly, everyone seems mostly to be focused instead on thwarting the US and its cowboy/chimp president.

It's already been asked many times, but I'll ask it again: does anyone have a plan that would lead to a stable, democratic Iraq within, say, 10 years, that does not involve military action in the interim?

Oh, and, you do realize that the Washington Times is owned and operated by Rev. Sun Myung Moon, right?
 
#527
Rob M said:


I for one would be all for that. Too bad they're not offering. It would also be great if some of the peace activists now headed for Iraq to act as human shields would also work to protect Iraqi civilians from Saddam's secret police (who to date have killed many more people than American bombs). But they're not. There are lots of things that the world community could do to improve the current and future situation in Iraq, and by doing so they would deflate any of the humanitiarian arguments that can be made for a US-led invasion. Sadly, everyone seems mostly to be focused instead on thwarting the US and its cowboy/chimp president.

It's already been asked many times, but I'll ask it again: does anyone have a plan that would lead to a stable, democratic Iraq within, say, 10 years, that does not involve military action in the interim?

Oh, and, you do realize that the Washington Times is owned and operated by Rev. Sun Myung Moon, right?
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actually, most of the world community is intent on letting its representative body, the UN, resolve the situation. it is a bummer that the us president is attempting to thwart this process. can you give me an example of where us military intervention has led to a stable, democratic non-us controlled governing body? say, within the same ten year time span.
 
#528
joe dick said:


actually, most of the world community is intent on letting its representative body, the UN, resolve the situation. it is a bummer that the us president is attempting to thwart this process. can you give me an example of where us military intervention has led to a stable, democratic non-us controlled governing body? say, within the same ten year time span.
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Okay, so, an ideal plan would involve the UN a lot and the US military less so. I couldn't agree more! So far though that's not a plan. And I'm not being a smartass here -- I really would like to know about alternatives that are out there but that maybe we're not hearing about.

And, seriously, if you can't think of a single instance in which military action (I didn't specify US) has supported the cause of democracy, either you're not thinking very hard, or you're using different notions of "military" and "democracy" than I am.
 
#529
Rob M said:


Okay, so, an ideal plan would involve the UN a lot and the US military less so. I couldn't agree more! So far though that's not a plan. And I'm not being a smartass here -- I really would like to know about alternatives that are out there but that maybe we're not hearing about.
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I wish I could propose a good alternative solution. However,
let's not jump to the conclusion that war is the only/best
solution. I think the fundamental problem is that the know
the solution, war, but we still don't know the problem. Is it
to get rid of Saddam, destroy Iraqi WMD, install democracy in
Iraq, bring food to the starving people in Iraq, get control of
the oil fields in Iraq, install a pro-american/pro-west government
in Iraq to help "stabilize" the region, ...? There are many
interpretations of the official reasons, there are many
speculations about the real reasons and there are probably
som non-official, possibly additional, reasons we are not told
about.
 
#531
Rob M,

i did not imply that military intervention had never served the cause of democracy.

the alternatives available depend on the outcome that you want. what do you believe will be the end result of unilateral us intervention in Iraq. lasting peace and stability in the middle east and security for the United States (and by extention, my country)? if so you are not thinking very hard or you have different definitions for the words 'peace, stability, and security' than the common usage.

at least we agree that whatever must be done should be done from within the framework of the UN.

the reason that i keep stressing US intervention and unilateral US intervention is because that is what most of us 'peace activists' are against. many of us accept that it may be necessary to go to war in Iraq. just not the way the US president seems intent on doing. and only if it proves absolutely necessary.
 
#532
Rob M said:


Okay, so, an ideal plan would involve the UN a lot and the US military less so. I couldn't agree more! So far though that's not a plan[snip].
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You're right, it's not a plan. It's actually in operation. Iraq has agreed to any number of weapon inspectors the UN cares to send. Nothing is stopping us from sending another 1000 or 5000 inspectors. That would keep even Saddam from launching bombs.

And the cost would be an infinitely small fraction of war, both in US$ and human lives. If the REAL reason is disarmament, who is to say that massive bombings are more succesfull than 5000 inspectors swarming over the country? Also, it would not destabilise the area, would not provoke additional suicide attacks etc.

But no, in these cases, our manly (sic) hormones get in the way, as usual. Why do we always try to think with our balls although we have a quite healthy set of brains?

Jan Didden
 
#534
Christer said:

Is it
to get rid of Saddam, destroy Iraqi WMD, install democracy in
Iraq, bring food to the starving people in Iraq, get control of
the oil fields in Iraq, install a pro-american/pro-west government
in Iraq to help "stabilize" the region, ...?
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All of the above? Seriously, what Bush is up to is unknowable, though from the stuff being generated by neo-con thinktanks in Washington, I suspect the last of the reasons you gave is mainly what's driving him.

No one of those reasons would be enough to justify an invasion, but all of them together plus several you don't mention make a pretty convincing case that, if nothing else, a war wouldn't necessarily be the worst possible alternative. Hardly a call to arms, I know, but it's enough to keep me out of the peace marches, waiting hopefully to hear about a viable Plan B.
 
#535
janneman said:

Iraq has agreed to any number of weapon inspectors the UN cares to send. Nothing is stopping us from sending another 1000 or 5000 inspectors. That would keep even Saddam from launching bombs.
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I worry that that's a plan not for peace, but for war at a time of Saddam's choosing. But you're right, it's the most hopeful thing we've heard in awhile. We'll see what happens tomorrow in New York!
 
#537
Bizarre news stories

I heard on the news that NYC is about to intruduce a law to fine individuals $50 when their mobile phone rings in public places like museums and theatres and cinemas.

You guys have got to be kidding me, right?

As you know the major airports have been babysat by the army in the UK, especially Heathrow. The Gov said they have had a terrorist tip-off but wouldn't elaborate. The news has been full of inane debate on what this threat might be and whether it is real or not. So today, a 37 year old traveller from Brazil is caught, by random search, at Gatwick with a grenade in his suitcase. This is such a coincidence that it wouldn't surprise me if he was an undercover Gov official. 😉 Ok, it would surprise me a little.

Oh, and Saddam better be careful which way the wind is blowing when he's inspected or else his 93 mile rockets may be mistaken for long-range missiles and justify an invasion. :clown:

Roll on Hans Blix!
 
#539
Quote from Till-
"I mentioned it before in thei thread, the war was descided in Russia. And what the US goverment says about Mr chirac, france and germany is so ridicolously, we should stop any contacts with the USA goverment and wait until they established a serios new president. This people having the power in USA at the moment are a case for courthouse, not for whitehouse."

Try as we might, we (our government) still haven't cornered the market on ridiculous behavior.

This thread was calling for (shouting even) peace. Isn't it ironic how often the word hate appears?

SteveA
 
#540
Television scheduling

6 months ago the UK digital terrestrial broadcaster ITV Digital went bust (spent too much on football). The infrastructure was taken over by the BBC and relaunched as Freeview. Given the BBC's archives and position as a public service broadcaster, an entirely different mix of channels was not unexpected.

One new channel is the "History" channel. However, this channel could be more accurately designated the "War" channel, since 90% of its programming is devoted to wars ranging from the Roman Empire to, surprise, surprise, WWII. It's amazing just how many programmes there are describing our plucky chaps' efforts in the face of evil monsters. Russia, UK, USA, Nordic and mainland European Resistance all get their photo opportunities.

Similarly, over the last few months, there have been an awful lot of war films on the analogue channels. Some old favourites such as "The Great Escape," turn up every few years (usually at Easter, I don't know why.) However, recently there has been a rash of minor films, often with Richard Attenborough being plucky at sea. The "Day of the Jackal" (attempt to assasinate de Gaulle) was shown recently, and that film is very rarely shown. But the whole thing came to a crashing climax last week when an Austin Powers film had Doctor Evil prophetically destroying the World Trade Centre.

It's not only the obvious propaganda in the TV news and newspapers that you have to watch out for, it's the merciless scheduling.

Have other countries noticed this trait?
 
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