Generally I am not. But if asked I can go on and on....The same is true when in South Africa...I was also against the grain...telling everyone who would listen that Apartheid was wrong...They thought I was nuts and hated South Africa. But they where wrong...I loved South Africa...just like I love the Netherlands and the Dutch...so it is NOT a case of...if you are not with us you are against us ;-)
jean-paul said:
No, I'm USian. And, just to be clear, I have a very positive attitude towards the Dutch.. There are certainly worse things to be than Calvinist!
rfbrw said:
OK, what's that supposed to mean ? If you have something to say, please say it instead of speaking in riddles.
I guess you mean something like exporting convicts to Devils island, isn't it ?
some of us are just overly sensitive.
We are humans, and as such we are imperfect. a society full of human will likely be full of faults.
It is the wise men who welcome feedbacks and facts from others that would suggest a course of corrective actions so that we can eliminate those faults or reduce them as much as we can.
There is nothing wrong in pointing out things the Dutch / American / Europeans do wrong. and such actions should be welcome.
What's nasty about some of the anti-american bashing here is that people speak from their limited understanding of americans and refuse to accept that facts that sometimes Americans do good, and better than the Europeans.
I like europe but for the life of me i would not live there simply because I don't like their social and political systems. That doesn't mean that American is superior to Europe (it is for me but not for everyone).
People who refuse to see their shortcomings are doomed to fail.
and some of us are showing good signs of that. Which, in a competitive world, is nothing but welcome signs for me: so that I can pick up European companies on the cheap, fix them and flip them.
We are humans, and as such we are imperfect. a society full of human will likely be full of faults.
It is the wise men who welcome feedbacks and facts from others that would suggest a course of corrective actions so that we can eliminate those faults or reduce them as much as we can.
There is nothing wrong in pointing out things the Dutch / American / Europeans do wrong. and such actions should be welcome.
What's nasty about some of the anti-american bashing here is that people speak from their limited understanding of americans and refuse to accept that facts that sometimes Americans do good, and better than the Europeans.
I like europe but for the life of me i would not live there simply because I don't like their social and political systems. That doesn't mean that American is superior to Europe (it is for me but not for everyone).
People who refuse to see their shortcomings are doomed to fail.
and some of us are showing good signs of that. Which, in a competitive world, is nothing but welcome signs for me: so that I can pick up European companies on the cheap, fix them and flip them.
Millwood, I think we see our own shortcomings better than others do. Problem is we want to correct ourselves continuously at whatever price it takes. For example environmental matters.
We can not produce anything anymore because of our ridiculous way of regulations and high wages. A deadly combination. Add that to paying the most of the EUs contribution ( for what reason ? ) and you'll understand that we're doomed to loose.
We can not produce anything anymore because of our ridiculous way of regulations and high wages. A deadly combination. Add that to paying the most of the EUs contribution ( for what reason ? ) and you'll understand that we're doomed to loose.
jean-paul said:
I certainly hope so.
Unfortunately, hope is rarely reality.
jean-paul said:
That's why we keep drive our big SUVs, drop our bombs, and fight our wars. Because we want to correct ourselves whenever we want, wherever we want and however we want, 🙂
Oh well.
millwood said:
In our calvinistic view that is calles selfishness. But that's what's keeping us from success and america from being a friend of most countries. I think we could use some of it to stand up against the bad economic environment of today. In the 17th century the dutch thought like the american government does today and they were the most powerful in the world then.
BTW some selfcriticism and/or seeing its own shortcomings in foreign policy wouldn't hurt the american government.
Oh well.
jean-paul said:
so it is OK that you can fix your problems whenever you want it, but when it comes to our SUVs and bombs and wars, we will have to listen to you?
In our democratic view that is called BS.
Oh well.
I merely understood this sentence as america correcting the world. No BS in that in my democratic view.
Like the right USA gives itself to invade the Netherlands if an american citizen is arrested here for a crime and so on. Like the demanding us to deliver all our private data to the US when we want to go to that country ( including credit card numbers etc. ). If we don't listen to that we aren't allowed to fly to the US and/or the airlines are refused. Like threatening us if we don't want to hand over certain people that are suspicious in the eyes of the US.
That kind of correcting yourself.
Aah yes, Power and weakness, countries with power will act different then countries without, it has always been so. Someone else way back in this thread posted this link, and I found this fascinating and a bit unnerving through the first few paragraphs, but then it started to click, by the time I was finished I must admit it seemed spot on and very logical. This is the best article I've read that makes sense of the differences between the American and European ideologies, very good reading.
I have learned a lot from this thread although very difficult reading at times, wading through the meaningless bashing and mud slinging and empty comments, but there have been some truly enlightening and shining moments that have changed my views forever, for the better.
Power and Weakness, if you haven’t already read it, you must!
http://www.newamericancentury.org/kagan-20020520.htm
jean-paul said:
sorry you mis-understood it.
jean-paul said:
every country has the right to invade others. You don't get the right to take that away. Whether it is right to invade another country is a whole other story.
jean-paul said:
you are welcome not to go if it so upsets you. You are coming to someone's house and you don't get the right to insist how you are to be treated. If you don't like it, don't go.
I am ****ed that Netherlands insists on me having a visa to go there too, 🙂. I am ****ed that they didn't kiss my feet every single day to beg me to go there, 🙂.
You are asking something so ridiculous that it is beyond the realm of realism.
jean-paul said:
we certainly have the rights to issue threats. You have every right to tell us to take a hike.
jean-paul said:
That kind of being overly sensitive.
kingdaddy said:
Thats fantastic, did you feel utopia after reading that?
Not very original
Here's some more rambling’s you might like
You know you like it 😉
jean-paul said:
I was thinking more of those who chose to go to South Africa. The state they eventually created was in stark contrast to one they left which probably has some bearing on why they left.
jean-paul said:
I am not so sure cutting regulation and wages is a long term cure. In the near future it will be possible to do more with less by which I mean fully automated factories with an overseer or two. With disposable products, Toshiba SD-3960 for example, spewed out by fully automated, relatively local factories, there are going to be an awful lot of people doing nothing.
rfbrw said:
Well, it was and it wasn't. One of the ways that Dutch society avoided political violence for so long was the system of "verzuiling", the strict separation of groups on (mostly) religious grounds, with completely distinct housing, schools, news media, etc for different groups. There was nothing especially sinister about it, and apparently given the social situation in the Netherlands it worked pretty well. But, there is something of a family resemblence between verzuiling and apartheid.
Rob M said:
Ummmm. The joys of segregation. Perhaps it ought come back in some form for audiophiles.
Forming groups is natural behaviour for humans. Apartheid is a still an emotionally charged word. Verzuiling was completely voluntary for all sides. From that POV, verzuiling is very far removed from apartheid.Rob M said:
Hans L said:
Absolutely, no question about that. Apartheid was kind of an evil shadow image of verzuiling. I guess I would compare it to the difference between the free colleges in cities like NY, that were meant to help new immigrants participate in American society in the early part of the 20th century, vs. the Indian boarding schools which forcibly "integrated" Native American children.
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