Just today in the news. Dutch Military in the Antillen.
Severe beatings, theft, destruction of property and drugsdealing by the Dutch.
http://www.nu.nl/news.jsp?n=359316&c=11
Sorry you are so sensitive. I was NOT attacking you personally. But merely gave an opinion on how I see things.
No.
I just get the idea that most of my fellow countrymen think that we as a nation are better than the rest of the world. All of my collegues and friends think that Americans are all evil. And as you know the mind maffia in the Netherlands is very powerful.
All I did was voice my opinion...Why do you find that so offensive?
America...or the present administration made a terrible mess of Iraq and the middle east ...creating problems for the next 20 years. But I constantly read postings about how our way of life is better and about how bad American cars are. And vice versa.
Actually debate is not possible anymore in this thread...it is just a big mud slinging contest. I'm going to do my best not to post here anymore.
[edit] I have to admit that discussing things with some Americans is that they seem to be proud of the fact that everyone is born with equal rights and freedoms...but if you criticize America you are treated and viewed as vermin. (blanket statement).
millwood said:
hey milly... you make me jealous... you don't know who your pap is anymore? such a shame 😀
What's up with the self-chastising? I'm already quite aware the Dutch aren't perfect ppl...Bas Horneman said:
It's not like the Dutch military is roaming around the Antillen pillaging villages and abusing the people. The article says:
8 members of the military were arrested for doing soft drugs and sent home last year. (Btw, as you know, the citizens in the Netherlands are free to use softdrugs till their head spins, which is a bit of a dubble standard.) 45 were arrested for the other crimes you quoted. Probably 1 or 2 of them included severe abuse (To whom? Maybe amongst eachother?). Though shameful representation of our country, I don't think very much of it. One bar fights and you already have tens of arrests... And military aren't exactly known for being very mindful people. On top of that the Dutch always seem less disciplined than other armies, which could account for more minor incidents. But in no way does this compare to starting a war. If our goverment would start a war like Iraq, I would feel ashamed to say the least. I would also express my disagreement like I'm doing now for the US.
This is not about how sensitive I am. If your message wasn't directed at me, you shouldn't have started your post with my name at the top.
Make that 30 or 40. I think it will last at least one generation. And I agree that a lot of our fellow citizens feel that our nation is better. In essence I agree with that, because we haven't gone to war for half a century. Wait a sec, before you react: I'm not saying the dutch have some sort of elevated civility about them and I do think people in our nation are equally capable of starting a war over the wrong reason. But we haven't... and I'm not going to judge them for the missery they could potentially inflict to others.
Indonesia was a huge mistake, but along time ago. The WWII we were not the aggresor, though some Dutch chose the side of the Nazi's.
You referred to Sebrenica in another post of yours. This is a very bad example. Srebrenica was declared a 'safe area' and the mission of the Dutch was to 'to deter by presence'. We sent in one of our bataljon, badly prepared and without thoroughly analyzing the situation. They were not equiped well and were ordered to use a little force as possible. The UN and UNPROFOR completely underestimated the situation as well. The bataljon constantly found themselves caught between crossfires of the two parties and were unable to anything about it. Sting operation were deliberately done often and on a small scale as to not draw too much attention to the UN to avoid the sending of a larger force. When hell broke loose, the high command ordered against air strikes and Dutchbat was completely overrun. That's why a bloodbath could occur. In retrospect the Dutch were to eager to show the world we could play a role in military UN mission. We underestimated the situation and even declined help from the CIA for extra intelligence which shows a conceited attitude of our military leaders. However, no one could predict that Mladic would order for a mass execution at Srebrenica. Our actions and the UN's actions made it possible, but we were not responsible or the massmurdering, that is for Mladic and his men. I'll stop here.
Kingdaddy and I are obviously giving eachother more room for discussion. But there seems to be an increase in short, mudthrowing messages as well...
I agree in essence. I just wonder if the Brits would also have helped rounding up the men and boys as naïvely as Dutchbat did.
One can indeed discuss with Kingdaddy. Millwood is pretty unique..to say the least...that is probably the reason why he still is under permanent moderation.
I agree again. It was slightly tongue in cheek type of remark.
Iraq has become everything I predicted. I.e. it would make matters worse instead of better. You could say that America is 50 years behind Europe when it comes to foreign policy. And the Neo Conservatives have been proven wrong...as far as I am concerned. They too must realize that debate and true coalitions are indeed the best way forward.
Actually, I think the Brits would have done the same in that situation (not being in control anymore).Bas Horneman said:
But the Brits probably would have avoided the whole mess altogether by reacting differently in the months before the massacre.
Bas Horneman said:
Taken as a whole, in this forum, all I've seen is Americans defending the bashing, sometimes severe bashing, against the U.S., which by the way includes its citizens - us...
With the exception of one individual, maybe two, I haven't seen direct attacks and/or derogatory statements against Europe here. This thread started with an anti-U.S. tone, and people just jumped on the bandwagon.
Bas Horneman said:
50 years ago, Europe was rebuilding from WWII, and had no active foriegn policy. Today, the E.U. struggles for a common policy on defense, and admits they need more funding, but never does anything about it. The U.S., always commits the most dollars, and troops to major international military operations. We've always asked that the E.U. commit their fair share, and they agree they should, but as mentioned above, never do anything about it. On trade, the E.U. struggles within its own borders - dont even mention Asia. And the Zimbabwe fiasco just proves the E.U. is petty when it comes to foreign policy and can't agree on even common-sense issues.
To say the U.S. is behind Europe on foreign policy (much less 50 years), is a purely subjective opinion.
The E.U. has to contend with 6-month rotating presidents, and has to have the agreement of the member countires, which insist they have their concessions met before agreeing - major decisions get clouded by too much political wrangling in the E.U. model IMO. From what I've seen/read in the news, not much gets done, or agreed upon for that matter.
Edit - Damn, I'm posting in here again.....
Yes ofcourse it is..but it is mine😉
I've posted it before...but maybe I should have said 100 years ago. Europe was the most powerful and influential...they tried to change the world with blood and steel...did not work.
By the way...I think this American was spot on..here is an excerpt.
Meanwhile, the sorry history of American imperialism -- collaboration with terrorists, bloody proxy wars against civilians, forcible replacement of democratic governments with corrupt dictatorships -- is strictly off-limits to mainstream media. Lest it weaken our resolve, we are not to be allowed to understand the reasons underlying the horrifying crimes of September 11.
Original text here :
http://www.supersphere.com/FrontPage/Politic/Article.html?ID=911&NAME=1984
Hans L said:
Exactly. The only reason the Dutch were there was that everyone else refused to get involved in what was obviously a hopeless assignment. The government thought their moral superiority would allow Dutch troops to succeed where everyone else would fail.
It really is amazing to see Dutch Calvinism at work in the papers. If you grow up with it, I'm sure you don't notice it, but it's obvious to foreigners (as I recall, Bas, you're from South Africa?). The subtext of every news story about something bad happening somewhere in the world is that such a thing could *never* *ever* happen in the Netherlands.
I remember when Fortuyn was shot, the main reaction was "How could this happen *here* -- assassinations only happen in the US and other savage countries!", followed by "Could this mean that we're *not* better than everyone else?" Fortunately, Bush said something stupid soon after the spell passed.
That is pretty correct as far as I see it. Corruption happens in Italy. Political murders happen in the USA. Discrimination and racism happens in South Africa.
Ok political murders won't happen here soon.
It boils down to this. The way we do things in the Netherlands is the proper way of doing things. All countries have this ofcourse...but the dutch are particularly fond of themselves. And they loooove pointing their fingers at people that do wrong...but no one ....I mean no-one does anything wrong anymore...everything is externalized...yes but...this and yes but that...no-one says...oh yes...i screwed up...I made a mistake...but they will be the first to point at someone who does make one...
All my friends in the Netherlands from Chile, UK, Argentina, Norway, Sweden (My nordic friends to a lesser extent) and Iran notice this innate arrogance of the Dutch. It's not an issue for me, because the Dutch have plenty good character traits as well....obviously. But it does take a while to get used to it. Try reading "the Undutchables"...very funny and often very true.
😉
Please don't lecture me about calvinism. Your opinion about not noticing is incorrect as well. Current generations are well aware of its remains, but calvinism is something of the past and mostly considered a rather negative label nowadays. Oh, and we stopped walking in wooden shoes as wellRob M said:
That is a particularly painful point in the history of my country, well at least is it AFAIAC, but I think I speak for the majority, no matter what the opinion was of Pim.
And FYI, this kind of thing *never* *happened* before!!! Which perfectly explains the shock when it actually did happen...
Mentioning 'savage countries' is your choice of words, not mine at all.
In 1584 there was the political murder of Protestant zealot William of Orange by a Catholic fanatic.
But it is the first since we became a democracy. If you can call us a democracy. It does not feel like one to me. You are allowed to vote once a year...but then the politicians have debates with unelected non-governmental organizations about what is best for us....Very very Calvinistic! We the "ordinary people" are not smart enough to know what is good for us.
A good example are referendums..the Netherlands has never had one...and every initiative to have the right to have them has been stonewalled by the politicians by creating a commission...and we all know what happens when a commission has to decide..!!! God forbid that the common people could have a DIRECT say in important matters.!!!!!!!!!
There have been some municipal referendums...but guess what ...they are not binding and can be veto'ed by the municipal councils. Worse...the referendums could never be about important issues like taxes and salaries of politicians. LOL
The biggest anti-referendum parties...are....you've guessed it..the Christian parties....so no...I don't think Calvinism is something of the past...it still pervades every pore of Dutch Society.
Hans L said:
Yeah, I know, it's hard. An American with opinions about the Dutch! It violates the natural order of the universe!
Bas Horneman said:
You don't have to go that far back -- the period right after the end of the German occupation was filled with political violence.
The Dutch are very lucky They live in a small, wealthy, homogenous country surrounded by wealthy and friendly neighbors. But somehow they see the fact they they have relatively few social problems not as the result of their good fortune but as evidence their superiority. You don't have to go to church to be a Calvinist.
Rob M said:
Maybe not just good fortune. They did take the opportunity to export a lot of their bad eggs a century or two ago
Rob M and Bas, you seem to have "the Dutch" all figured out both socially and politically... congrats.
I must live in a different country then 😕
I must live in a different country then 😕
Ahem, Hans, I think Rob M *is* a dutchman that lives in the USA.
Well, ask a dutchman on holidays ( in whatever country ) what Holland is like and you'll get the picture. Our self-esteem is not very high in such cases except when it is a fellow dutchman that is making negative remarks about our country.
Bas has a negative view on the Netherlands which is not a surprise as he is South African or has lived there.
I do not know a single immigrated South African that is positive about the Netherlands. The fact that they were seen as foreigners ( which they are after 300 years ) when they choose to come here after apartheid had gone shocked the ones I know. I even know some that went back recently because life over there seems to be better ( when you get used to the criminal rates ).
Well, ask a dutchman on holidays ( in whatever country ) what Holland is like and you'll get the picture. Our self-esteem is not very high in such cases except when it is a fellow dutchman that is making negative remarks about our country.
Bas has a negative view on the Netherlands which is not a surprise as he is South African or has lived there.
I do not know a single immigrated South African that is positive about the Netherlands. The fact that they were seen as foreigners ( which they are after 300 years ) when they choose to come here after apartheid had gone shocked the ones I know. I even know some that went back recently because life over there seems to be better ( when you get used to the criminal rates ).
Hans L said:
living in a country doesn't assure your correct understanding of it.
Intelligence does, Handie.
Life in general is better for my family in the Netherlands. And yes JP, I have my own view of the Dutch...and of South Africans and of Americans. I am biologically 100% pure dutch (mom and dad). But then again what does that mean...we are all humans after all.
But because you grow up somewhere else you will obviously see the world differently. I don't find South Africans better than the Dutch..just different. And adjusting to Dutch life is hard very hard for a South African...but I got used to it...so much so that I have become more Dutch in my attitudes than South African....there are many South African character traits that I despise. Like the fact that they think that they are Gods people and SA their promised land..(blanket statement)
By the way JP...the gainclone pcb's have not arrived yet!...it's taking much longer than usual.
Regards,
Bas
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