Suitable midrange cone, for bandpass mid in Unity horn

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#1,061
Hrmmf said:
Now you've just completely lost me😕

Maybe I didn't asked the right question - I'll try to rephrase.

With a 6.5" driver you have diameter of appx. 130mm. Let's say you have to place the holes near the egde of the cone and not far apart. This means that soundwaves emitted farthes away from the ports will travel appx. 98mm. before it hits a port With a 1500Hz x-over a 1/4 wavelength is 57.3mm. Will this not cause delay/phase problems?

/Thomas
Click to expand...

The sound does not originate from a specific point on the cone of the driver. The entire volume under the cone gets pressurized and enters into the horn through the port. There are no delay issues related to placement of the ports in relation to the cone. At least I have never been able to measure any.
 
#1,062
Hrmmf said:
Now you've just completely lost me😕

Maybe I didn't asked the right question - I'll try to rephrase.

With a 6.5" driver you have diameter of appx. 130mm. Let's say you have to place the holes near the egde of the cone and not far apart. This means that soundwaves emitted farthes away from the ports will travel appx. 98mm. before it hits a port With a 1500Hz x-over a 1/4 wavelength is 57.3mm. Will this not cause delay/phase problems?

/Thomas
Click to expand...

Over on AudioAsylum, years ago, Danley mentioned that he did some experiments with DSP delay to tighten up the integration with the various drivers. He said that it made a subtle but audible difference. I'm too lazy to dig up the posts, but it struck me that this would be one way to make some small improvements to an already good design. I have two miniDSP that are begging to get used here 🙂

Also, the VTC Paraline boxes use DSP, and they've published the raw and processed data. (A Paraline and a Synergy horn have lots in common.)
 
#1,064
The Visaton M 10 models very nicely. I left a little raise at the ends of the passband so it will sum flat with the crossovers in place. This is just the raw modeled response.
 

Attachments

  • Visaton_M10.JPG
    Visaton_M10.JPG
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#1,065
Nice!

Do you have more deatails about what gave this nice simulation.
Like for example.
How many speakers?

Portsize?

Dimensions of the horn?

Frontchamber volume?

Area of the horn that it taps in to?

Flare rate?

You understand that I want to be spoonfeed with all the datails here..
 
#1,068
If anyone hasn't check out Scott's Tumblr, there are some very exciting pics of some Synergy horns coming together! (And also what appears to be a Paraline horn?) Looks like he's using the little Dayton 3" drivers:

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.


While their parameters don't fit the criteria posted on the first page of this thread, I'd long wondered if they'd work. The phase plug might extend the high frequency response usefully, and also lowers the MMS and raises the FS.
 
#1,069
Thanks for the link. I am still trying to learn more before I try and experiment. I was going to try and buy a few of the celestion 5" mids but just have not committed yet. Also looked at maybe doing a dual PHL 8" SH but really like the idea of doing a SH64.

That being said I am just sitting back and trying to learn as you guys keep experimenting. Then hopefully I be wasting too much material. 😀

Look forward to seeing how these 3" mids work.
 
#1,070
Sorry this took so long. Been busy with the kid's school projects and sports. I had to make some changes to the first script because it was physically impossible to build; things would not fit in the real world. The first attachment is the raw simulated midrange response. The second attachment is the simulated response with the compression driver added in without a crossover. I do this to see how close the drivers are to naturally summing together. If this normally looks good, then the crossover work is a lot easier. See the script below. Ignore the resistors, caps, and inductors in the top of the script. They are not being used. Also note that I have the amplifier output impedance set to 2 ohms for a tube amp.



System 'Unity'
Def_Driver 'CompDriver' | D220Ti-OMF compression driver
Sd=15.2cm2
Bl=8.0Tm
Cms=3.45E-05m/N
Rms=0.4Ns/m
Fs=850Hz
Le=0.12mH
Re=12.5ohm
ExpoLe=0.618

Def_Driver 'MidDriver' |Visaton M 10 4" mid
Sd=59.86cm2
Bl=3.18Tm
Cms=3.23E-05m/N
Rms=1.07Ns/m
fs=609Hz
Le=0.33mH
Re=7.1ohm
ExpoLe=0.618

Def_Const | Unit is cm
{
FcMid_Len=1.9e-2; | Front Mid chamber length
FcMid_dD=8.5086e-2; | Front Mid chamber diameter
FcPortMid_Len=2.54e-2; | Mid Enrty Port length
FcPortMid_dD=2.2e-2; | Mid Entry Port diameter

Rg=2.0; |Amplifier output impedance (ohms)

R1Comp = 39; |Compression driver Crossover R1 resistance (ohms)
R2Comp = 25; |Compression driver Crossover R2 resistance (ohms)
R3Comp = 8.2; |Compression driver Crossover R3 resistance (ohms)

C1Comp = 5.6e-6; |Compression driver Crossover C1 capacitor (Farads)
C2Comp = 1.0e-6; |Compression driver Crossover C2 capacitor (Farads)
C3Comp = .33e-6; |Compression driver Crossover C1 capacitor (Farads)
C4Comp = 22e-6; |Compression driver Crossover C2 capacitor (Farads)

L1Comp = 1.8e-3; |Compression driver Crossover L1 inductor (Henries)
L2Comp = 0.033e-3; |Compression driver Crossover L1 inductor (Henries)

C1Mid = 45e-6; |Mid Driver Crossover C1 capacitor (Farads)

R1Mid = 20; |Mid Driver Crossover R1 resistance (ohms)
R2Mid = 5.6; |Mid Driver Crossover R2 resistance (ohms)

L1Mid = 3.3e-3; |Mid Driver Crossover L1 inductor (Henries)


S1 = 1.275e-4; |WG1 throat area & Comp phase plug(sq cm)
S2 = 5.067e-4; |WG2 mouth area & horn segment 2 throat area & compression driver exit(sq cm)
S3 = 14.19e-4; |WG3 mouth area & horn segment 3 throat area(sq cm)
S4 = 36.21e-4; |WG4 mouth area & horn segment 4 throat area & midrange tap point(sq cm)
S5 = 975e-4; |mouth
S6 = 1425e-4; |mouth flare out

L12 = 4.2e-2; |WG1 axial length(cm)
L23 = 1.7e-2; |WG2 axial length(cm)
L34 = 1.3e-2; |WG3 axial length(cm)
L45 = 24.3e-2; |mouth flare
L56 = 1.5e-2; |mt

VrcComp = 0.08e-3; |compression driver Rear chamber volume (litres)
LrcComp = 0.84e-2; |compression driver Rear chamber average length (cm)
VtcComp = 0.75e-6; |compression driver Throat chamber volume (cc)
AtcComp = 15.520e-4; |compression driver Throat chamber cross-sectional area (sq cm)

ArcComp = VrcComp / LrcComp; |Conversions for CompDriver
LtcComp = VtcComp / AtcComp;
Sd=59.86E-02;
}
Duct 'CompRearChamber' Node=30=31

SD={ArcComp} Len={LrcComp} Visc=0

Driver 'D1' Def='CompDriver' Node=0=2=31=32

Duct 'CompFrontChamber' Node=32=140

SD={AtcComp} Len={LtcComp} Visc=0

Radiator 'Diaphragm2' Node=100 SD={Sd} Label=2
Radiator 'Diaphragm3' Node=101 SD={Sd} Label=3
Radiator 'Diaphragm4' Node=102 SD={Sd} Label=4
Radiator 'Diaphragm5' Node=103 SD={Sd} Label=5

Driver 'D2' Def='MidDriver' Node=2=40=100=120
Driver 'D3' Def='MidDriver' Node=40=0=101=121
Driver 'D4' Def='MidDriver' Node=2=41=102=122
Driver 'D5' Def='MidDriver' Node=41=0=103=123

Duct 'DuMid_Fc1' Node=120=130 dD={FcMid_dD} Len={FcMid_Len}
Duct 'DuMid_Fc2' Node=121=131 dD={FcMid_dD} Len={FcMid_Len}
Duct 'DuMid_Fc3' Node=122=132 dD={FcMid_dD} Len={FcMid_Len}
Duct 'DuMid_Fc4' Node=123=133 dD={FcMid_dD} Len={FcMid_Len}

Duct 'DuMid_BP1a' Node=130=170 dD={FcPortMid_dD} Len={FcPortMid_Len}
Duct 'DuMid_BP2a' Node=130=170 dD={FcPortMid_dD} Len={FcPortMid_Len}
Duct 'DuMid_BP1b' Node=131=170 dD={FcPortMid_dD} Len={FcPortMid_Len}
Duct 'DuMid_BP2b' Node=131=170 dD={FcPortMid_dD} Len={FcPortMid_Len}
Duct 'DuMid_BP1c' Node=132=170 dD={FcPortMid_dD} Len={FcPortMid_Len}
Duct 'DuMid_BP2c' Node=132=170 dD={FcPortMid_dD} Len={FcPortMid_Len}
Duct 'DuMid_BP1d' Node=133=170 dD={FcPortMid_dD} Len={FcPortMid_Len}
Duct 'DuMid_BP2d' Node=133=170 dD={FcPortMid_dD} Len={FcPortMid_Len}


Resistor 'Amplifier Rg' |Amplifier output impedance
Node=1=2
R={Rg}



Waveguide 'WG1'
Node=140=150
STh={S1}
SMo={S2}
Len={L12}
T=1

Waveguide 'WG2'
Node=150=160
STh={S2}
SMo={S3}
Len={L23}
T=1

Waveguide 'WG3'
Node=160=170
STh={S3}
SMo={S4}
Len={L34}
Conical

Waveguide 'WG4'
Node=170=180
STh={S4}
SMo={S5}
Len={L45}
Conical

Waveguide 'WG5'
Node=180=190
STh={S5}
SMo={S6}
Len={L56}
Conical

Radiator 'Horn mouth'
Node=190
SD={S6}
x=0
y=0
z=0
HAngle=0
VAngle=0
 

Attachments

  • visaton_M10.JPG
    visaton_M10.JPG
    58.1 KB · Views: 552
  • visaton_M10_1.JPG
    visaton_M10_1.JPG
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#1,073
JLH said:
The problem with those mids is the foam roll surround.
Click to expand...

ah, ok

anyway, the M10 also appear to have good power handling when crossed high(800hz)

I case you haven't noticed ...
M10 is also available as R models without the closed back
would be nice if it would do 2khz

(if I remember correctly, the M10 was considered very good because of its flat shallow cone)
 
#1,075
Thank you for sharing your M10 script, John - it looks great!

Them damn kids taking up all your audio time. Mine are like that too😉

I'm still working with the little Ciare HT080 - or trying to! But since I can't measure the T/S parameters do to it's resistive (almost flat) impendance, I've decided to just build a pair of scrap horns and do it the old-fashioned way - by trial and error!

/Thomas
 
#1,077
JLH said:
- Snip...

S1 = 1.275e-4; |WG1 throat area & Comp phase plug(sq cm)
S2 = 5.067e-4; |WG2 mouth area & horn segment 2 throat area & compression driver exit(sq cm)
S3 = 14.19e-4; |WG3 mouth area & horn segment 3 throat area(sq cm)
S4 = 36.21e-4; |WG4 mouth area & horn segment 4 throat area & midrange tap point(sq cm)
S5 = 975e-4; |mouth
S6 = 1425e-4; |mouth flare out

L12 = 4.2e-2; |WG1 axial length(cm)
L23 = 1.7e-2; |WG2 axial length(cm)
L34 = 1.3e-2; |WG3 axial length(cm)
L45 = 24.3e-2; |mouth flare
L56 = 1.5e-2; |mt

Waveguide 'WG1'
Node=140=150
STh={S1}
SMo={S2}
Len={L12}
T=1

Waveguide 'WG2'
Node=150=160
STh={S2}
SMo={S3}
Len={L23}
T=1

Waveguide 'WG3'
Node=160=170
STh={S3}
SMo={S4}
Len={L34}
Conical

Waveguide 'WG4'
Node=170=180
STh={S4}
SMo={S5}
Len={L45}
Conical

Waveguide 'WG5'
Node=180=190
STh={S5}
SMo={S6}
Len={L56}
Conical

Radiator 'Horn mouth'
Node=190
SD={S6}
x=0
y=0
z=0
HAngle=0
VAngle=0
Click to expand...

...Snap!

John, would you please explain the function of the additional waveguide (W3) just before the mid tap-point. Why not just make one waveguide from the compession driver throat (W2) to the mid tap-point (W4)?

Does my question make sence to you or am I talking rubbish?

/Thomas
 
#1,078
WG1 is the beginning of compression driver's phase plug.
WG2 is the compression driver exit and beginning of the horn.
WG3 is the beginning of the round to square transition section at the throat of the horn.
The beginning of WG4 is where the mids tap in.

WG1 and WG2 are exponential and the rest are conical.
 
#1,080
JLH said:
The problem with those mids is the foam roll surround.
Click to expand...

worth to note that what may appear like foam surround could well be coated cloth
several small Visaton are 😉
if not specificly saying foam or rubber on Visaton site, I take it they are coated cloth surround

weird sitting here looking for smooth response curves on cheap 10EUR drivers :clown:
 

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