Thanks DX for putting your thoughts into words. Here is the way I view things. When Colin Powell gave the speech to the UN, at first I was thinking, "What an excellent presentation." But it seemed strange that most of the rest of the world did not believe that it was factually correct. When the weapons inspectors were let back in, though, I thought, "The threat of force did its job and now the weapons can be found." But when W said we were going to invade anyway, I was sure that the rush to blow off the diplomatic solution indicated such an unspoken plan as trying to control the oil was the reason for the invasion--not to mention finishing the job Dad started against Saddam. Then things made more sense when it became known that W or his cabinet stifled warnings of an imminent attack by OsBiLa.
I can only think that most of the 52% of W supporters do not know this information. Before the election, most of those supporters still thought that Saddam was tied directly to the WoTrCe attack. I could not vote for a president who had such low respect for those he served, the people, to go along with deceiving them so badly. I thought that Clinton merited impeachment, and to be fair, W deserved it many times more for using the military might of the country in a war started by deceptive means to invade a sovereign country preemptively.
I can only think that most of the 52% of W supporters do not know this information. Before the election, most of those supporters still thought that Saddam was tied directly to the WoTrCe attack. I could not vote for a president who had such low respect for those he served, the people, to go along with deceiving them so badly. I thought that Clinton merited impeachment, and to be fair, W deserved it many times more for using the military might of the country in a war started by deceptive means to invade a sovereign country preemptively.
Quoting my own words..sick huh...There is actually a way America could win..but they would have to wage a successful COIN (Counter Insurgency) war for 20-40 years. Problem is..US only does conventional war. They should take some courses from the South Africans.
In Fallujah, Watch for this. This cult of murderers will kill some of their own women and children and then try to make it look like they were killed by American forces. The media, of course, will fall right in line with this anti-American game...
Al Sader in Najaf???
Al Sader in Najaf???
Unfortunately they won't have to. Plenty of civilians will be killed by American forces. (Which they obviously don't want to do...but that happens in war)
Problem is also that in 4 years. Bush will be gone. And Americans will be sick of this war in Iraq, and a new president will pull out of Iraq. Republic or Democratic..won't matter...and then these terrorists will have won. So you see ....democracy can't solve these kind of problems...but an Iraqi people might have staged a revolution in 10-20 years...and Iraq would have changed by itself. Just like China is changing by itself...slowly but surely. Like the Phil Collins song..."You can't hurry love" you can't hurry democracy...or whatever the people decide is good for them.
Meanwhile Saddam would have killed a whole lot more people once the UN (including US) is off his back.
cunningham said:
Very touching. I'm sure such thoughts gave you sleepless nights all through the Iran-Iraq war. No doubt you have worn out your carpets pacing up and down fretting over the undemocratic nature of Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and Uzbekistan not to mention the malign influence of the warlords in Afghanistan. And of course it goes without saying, the destruction Grozny and the plight of the Chechens cuts you to the bone.
Bas Horneman said:
In what exactly? Segregation? how to undermine your neighbours? How to stick your head in the sand over AIDs? How to sit on your hands while your neighbour destroys his country?
mpmarino said:
Yes, it is an issue, but it isn't what you think. The idea that the US media is liberal is a *gigantic myth.*
The newscasters and reporters may be primarily liberal, but that doesn't make the news biased. I guarantee you that board members and directors of media conglomerates *are not liberal.* Who calls the shots? Ultimately advertisers as that's where all of the money comes from. Who do the advertises answer to? 51% of the country who're ready to slap the "unpatriotic" label on anyone or anything that conflicts with their idea of the truth.
mpmarino said:
LOL
Try flipping through a foreign newspaper once in a while. I'm an American. I live in Australia. When I return to visit I'm *astonished* how different the news coverage of an issue is. Before I moved away I would never have believed it.
Wow, such love -n- stuff. I am a Bush supporter, I wave the US Flag proudly, and the next time a facist wants to run over europe, you can't count on this soldier to help! Where are all of the people crying about the 100,000's that the butcher of baghdad killed? I really cannot believe people don't support the USA. I remember reading some old news clippings from WWII saying that freedom would never work in places like Germany. Freedom is inherit to mankind, we are simply trying to STOP the bleeding in the middle east. Just like you euro's were wrong about Ronald Reagan, you will be proven wrong again!
Please clarify. Admitted ignorance here. I have no doubt that it is different. Please tell me in what way it is different. I would like to know...
Is it really? I cited 2 examples in my previous post that escaped mainstream media to a large degree. In all fairness, If a majority are aware of these 2 things, why aren't they of any importance? Funny how all I read here are examples of "Busch cheats". Bias perhaps?
Truly.. Anyone with liberal viewpoints would not see this favoritism at face value. One has to watch/listen to ABC/CBS/NBC/CNN/CNBC/NPR(all left leaning..)
AND FOX/Some FM talk radio(right leaning) to make a FAIR evaluation in the states. I am just asking for equality in the media. It is pretty much the only reference busy citizens have. It's important.
Ahh, the recent Dan Rather blunder....for example. Hmm, did that make it over the borders?
clarification:
("Anyone with liberal viewpoints" ~ I am not saying this is a terrible thing)
Regards,,,,
bas hornemann i think you are rigth
"In four years americans will be sick related this war"
But no one will remember the ones that try to inform that, today called against America..... i am less against America than many of you, as i love America and i am terrified with those things.
You were always the world "big brother"...many times going to avoid too much problems in foreign countries, receiving for that some little advantages (always) and gratitude...and i think this is fair.
Your Flat always means justice, decence, honestity, the figth against the evil...since i was young your movies and Coke, and Kellogs, and Gessy Lever, and Coty, and Chevrolet...and millions of factories here installed, made me brainwashed in a good way related you kind American guys......we also, as we like to make fun with our own problems... some auto sarcasm and little love for our own flag, we had some joke, showing our "tollerance" related American Business made here freely and welcome.
We used to say that Brazil means..... B.R.A.S.I.L Bravos Rapazes Americanos, Silenciosamente Irão Levando....Brave young American Boys, silently will go with our things...related our rich Orange Juice, our Coconut, Chocolate, Milk, Meat,Iron,Butter,Fruits,Vegetables,Alluminium,Coffee and many things.... also Bananas too..... and always gonne to Kind America, very cheap, as you always borrowed money for us (our corrupted politicians....their pockets are full of money... our problem remains.... yes....internal problem...i know that...our business.... but you knew they were not decent!)... everything exported cheap...now we are your slaves.... all we do is pay some percentual of the enormous value..... impossible to pay...cannot never be paid!.... we will work all eternity and will rest something to pay!.... this was not decent!...now crime here.... half population without job, and foreign numbers and internal lyes saying only 10 percent.....my building.... 40 appartments, as one example....70 percent of the mans without employment.... Industries closing their doors.... we are asfixiated, till the day we stop to pay...then...i imagine you will invade to defend our Democracy...as some "internal red revolution" will be disturbing our good eternal relations..... "intervention to help us to control the mass".....that's the way things normally happened everywhere...here will be different...... half country will say thank you to came here and to make a decent administration...i will dress myself with strips and stars....half country will figth against...Amazon river will turn red with the blood of my people and your people.... will be a damn foolish.
The problem, is that nobody will say thanks for us that tried to tell you other way to see the things that are happening now a days, today you think we are making noise... tomorrow you will forget to say thank you.
Could you see, had informs, could you watch your boys in pieces in Iraq?... do you know how many plastic bags were sent to Iraq... do you know how many was used?....your television is Censored....i can see your channels here too.....Satelite...your Satelite is Showing us your "Show" television...the words are terrible related people defending their land against invaders.
regards guys
I will be waiting 4 years to ask each one of us if you voted in Bush..... i think no one will recognize.....but all this is written here.
Carlos
"In four years americans will be sick related this war"
But no one will remember the ones that try to inform that, today called against America..... i am less against America than many of you, as i love America and i am terrified with those things.
You were always the world "big brother"...many times going to avoid too much problems in foreign countries, receiving for that some little advantages (always) and gratitude...and i think this is fair.
Your Flat always means justice, decence, honestity, the figth against the evil...since i was young your movies and Coke, and Kellogs, and Gessy Lever, and Coty, and Chevrolet...and millions of factories here installed, made me brainwashed in a good way related you kind American guys......we also, as we like to make fun with our own problems... some auto sarcasm and little love for our own flag, we had some joke, showing our "tollerance" related American Business made here freely and welcome.
We used to say that Brazil means..... B.R.A.S.I.L Bravos Rapazes Americanos, Silenciosamente Irão Levando....Brave young American Boys, silently will go with our things...related our rich Orange Juice, our Coconut, Chocolate, Milk, Meat,Iron,Butter,Fruits,Vegetables,Alluminium,Coffee and many things.... also Bananas too..... and always gonne to Kind America, very cheap, as you always borrowed money for us (our corrupted politicians....their pockets are full of money... our problem remains.... yes....internal problem...i know that...our business.... but you knew they were not decent!)... everything exported cheap...now we are your slaves.... all we do is pay some percentual of the enormous value..... impossible to pay...cannot never be paid!.... we will work all eternity and will rest something to pay!.... this was not decent!...now crime here.... half population without job, and foreign numbers and internal lyes saying only 10 percent.....my building.... 40 appartments, as one example....70 percent of the mans without employment.... Industries closing their doors.... we are asfixiated, till the day we stop to pay...then...i imagine you will invade to defend our Democracy...as some "internal red revolution" will be disturbing our good eternal relations..... "intervention to help us to control the mass".....that's the way things normally happened everywhere...here will be different...... half country will say thank you to came here and to make a decent administration...i will dress myself with strips and stars....half country will figth against...Amazon river will turn red with the blood of my people and your people.... will be a damn foolish.
The problem, is that nobody will say thanks for us that tried to tell you other way to see the things that are happening now a days, today you think we are making noise... tomorrow you will forget to say thank you.
Could you see, had informs, could you watch your boys in pieces in Iraq?... do you know how many plastic bags were sent to Iraq... do you know how many was used?....your television is Censored....i can see your channels here too.....Satelite...your Satelite is Showing us your "Show" television...the words are terrible related people defending their land against invaders.
regards guys
I will be waiting 4 years to ask each one of us if you voted in Bush..... i think no one will recognize.....but all this is written here.
Carlos
Carlos,
How many people do you know in Iraq at this moment? I know three US army men that are serving right now. I communicate with them on a regular basis. First, I would like to say that no one is making excuses for how this war started. The reality... it happened and we can't turn back.
The majority of the Iraqis that my friends have run into are ready and willing to move forward with a 'new Iraq.' Believe it or not they are being trained..My friends have done some of this training personally. Most of the citizens do have a positive outlook providing that they will be able to run thier own country..That is the goal. The real problem is the fear these people have for the insurgents and terrorists. It is holding them back, slowing progress. This is progress that a LOT of these people want.
This is all true, pretty much 'from the horses mouth', as they say. We must stay. We must finish what we started. We must not forget our errors, but we have to be forward thinking. We also must be very careful. What good does all the crying and criticising do? As I have said, I know Kerry, I don't trust Kerry. Neither do my soldier friends.
At this point, this is what the peaceful citizens of Iraq want. We must help them attain that.
A lot of us already are...
Regards,
How many people do you know in Iraq at this moment? I know three US army men that are serving right now. I communicate with them on a regular basis. First, I would like to say that no one is making excuses for how this war started. The reality... it happened and we can't turn back.
The majority of the Iraqis that my friends have run into are ready and willing to move forward with a 'new Iraq.' Believe it or not they are being trained..My friends have done some of this training personally. Most of the citizens do have a positive outlook providing that they will be able to run thier own country..That is the goal. The real problem is the fear these people have for the insurgents and terrorists. It is holding them back, slowing progress. This is progress that a LOT of these people want.
This is all true, pretty much 'from the horses mouth', as they say. We must stay. We must finish what we started. We must not forget our errors, but we have to be forward thinking. We also must be very careful. What good does all the crying and criticising do? As I have said, I know Kerry, I don't trust Kerry. Neither do my soldier friends.
At this point, this is what the peaceful citizens of Iraq want. We must help them attain that.
A lot of us already are...
Regards,
Of course i know the good american people, individually are wonderfull.
The problem is in the "computer" that is controlling the hole machine.
The parts are excelent, the "computer turns crazy"...that's the problem.
The good will of your people, the honest guys, decent, serious, good workers, friendly, clever, responsable....not of that is in Judgement here....not by myself... i have not doubts you all are wonderfull...but the exceptions are...the Government interests move you on and off.
The guys there cannot talk watever they want beeing there.....maybe together you, alone in U.S. and this is "maybe"...as they have orders!
The individual good intentions, the Patriotism, is clear to me as a United States people main characterist.
Also i new a German Soldier.... the had under fire many times in second world war.... the best father i could see, i always envy his son... What a good man that Wermacht soldier.....i turn close friend till his death in the seventies... he killed many.... was his life or the enemie life..... that was his choice beeing there.....no chance to discuss theories....they sent him there to figth..... behind all that dirty, was Hitler, Goering, Goebells and all madness...that was the problem and the responsables.
It is clear to me that the problem is the Brainswash.....my mother all life told me i am wonderfull...... i am brainwashed too.... i cannot understand why the first love i have had courage to left me alone....i still love her..... 40 years of love..... without her...and i am wonderfull...... (she don't think so)....now we are old, and adequacy to be together is the main objective..... i am wonderfull, and really adequated to her.... she do not think so....the true!
I am not wonderfull!...i am brainwashed...because a lonely lady...divorced.... do not wants me..... i am free...she is free!.... can you understand that what we think about ourselves is not always the true.... some "brainwash"...... some ideas, lyes repeated turns into trues......Hitler used to laugh about that.... the bigger the lyes more they believe!
Military follow orders, and say what command order them to say...and even, if dirty work is beeing done.... who will say to you the bad things?
regards,
Carlos
The problem is in the "computer" that is controlling the hole machine.
The parts are excelent, the "computer turns crazy"...that's the problem.
The good will of your people, the honest guys, decent, serious, good workers, friendly, clever, responsable....not of that is in Judgement here....not by myself... i have not doubts you all are wonderfull...but the exceptions are...the Government interests move you on and off.
The guys there cannot talk watever they want beeing there.....maybe together you, alone in U.S. and this is "maybe"...as they have orders!
The individual good intentions, the Patriotism, is clear to me as a United States people main characterist.
Also i new a German Soldier.... the had under fire many times in second world war.... the best father i could see, i always envy his son... What a good man that Wermacht soldier.....i turn close friend till his death in the seventies... he killed many.... was his life or the enemie life..... that was his choice beeing there.....no chance to discuss theories....they sent him there to figth..... behind all that dirty, was Hitler, Goering, Goebells and all madness...that was the problem and the responsables.
It is clear to me that the problem is the Brainswash.....my mother all life told me i am wonderfull...... i am brainwashed too.... i cannot understand why the first love i have had courage to left me alone....i still love her..... 40 years of love..... without her...and i am wonderfull...... (she don't think so)....now we are old, and adequacy to be together is the main objective..... i am wonderfull, and really adequated to her.... she do not think so....the true!
I am not wonderfull!...i am brainwashed...because a lonely lady...divorced.... do not wants me..... i am free...she is free!.... can you understand that what we think about ourselves is not always the true.... some "brainwash"...... some ideas, lyes repeated turns into trues......Hitler used to laugh about that.... the bigger the lyes more they believe!
Military follow orders, and say what command order them to say...and even, if dirty work is beeing done.... who will say to you the bad things?
regards,
Carlos
Whole, not hole....had not second intention
In the reality i do not know to speak english.
Me good.
me brazilian, we talk portuguese.
Carlos
In the reality i do not know to speak english.
Me good.
me brazilian, we talk portuguese.
Carlos
mpmarino said:
There is a keen but behind the scenes awareness of what will get good ratings in America. The footage of Iraqis toppling of Saddam Hussein's statue in the square is one example. I was stunned to learn that many Americans didn't know this was staged. Staged by the *media* no less. Nearly all of the people in the footage were journalists and their Iraqi translators. The wide shots of the square showed 100% empty streets.
Another was the embedded reporter stunt during the invasion. It made for great ratings, but it wasn't news in any way.
In general, world news is thin on the ground compared to Australia.
it did not simply start, your big boss mr president did start it for some non so altrusitic resasons... but i think darwinism will sort out those americans who support those fascists - on the long term.
All true!
I trust Kerry...but he might be the wrong man at the wrong time. For posterity it is actually better that Doubleya was re-elected. So he can follow thru on his policies...however his "whatever it takes" rings hollow....it just does not exist in a democracy. Only someone like Stalin could say that.
More food for thought :
"
February, 1982. Despite objections from congress, President Reagan removes Iraq from its list of known terrorist countries.
December, 1982. Hughes Aircraft ships 60 Defender helicopters to Iraq
March, 1986. The United States with Great Britain block all Security Council resolutions condemning Iraq's use of chemical weapons, and on March 21 the US becomes the only country refusing to sign a Security Council statement condemning Iraq's use of these weapons.
May, 1986. The US Department of Commerce licenses 70 biological exports to Iraq between May of 1985 and 1989, including at least 21 batches of lethal strains of anthrax.
May, 1986. US Department of Commerce approves shipment of weapons grade botulin poison to Iraq.
Late 1987. The Iraqi Air Force begins using chemical agents against Kurdish resistance forces in northern Iraq.
February, 1988. Saddam Hussein begins the "Anfal" campaign against the Kurds of northern Iraq. The Iraq regime used chemical weapons against the Kurds killing over 100,000 civilians and destroying over 1,200 Kurdish villages.
April, 1988. US Department of Commerce approves shipment of chemicals used in manufacture of mustard gas.
"
February, 1982. Despite objections from congress, President Reagan removes Iraq from its list of known terrorist countries.
December, 1982. Hughes Aircraft ships 60 Defender helicopters to Iraq
March, 1986. The United States with Great Britain block all Security Council resolutions condemning Iraq's use of chemical weapons, and on March 21 the US becomes the only country refusing to sign a Security Council statement condemning Iraq's use of these weapons.
May, 1986. The US Department of Commerce licenses 70 biological exports to Iraq between May of 1985 and 1989, including at least 21 batches of lethal strains of anthrax.
May, 1986. US Department of Commerce approves shipment of weapons grade botulin poison to Iraq.
Late 1987. The Iraqi Air Force begins using chemical agents against Kurdish resistance forces in northern Iraq.
February, 1988. Saddam Hussein begins the "Anfal" campaign against the Kurds of northern Iraq. The Iraq regime used chemical weapons against the Kurds killing over 100,000 civilians and destroying over 1,200 Kurdish villages.
April, 1988. US Department of Commerce approves shipment of chemicals used in manufacture of mustard gas.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.