Chris8sirhC said:
Just simulated on WinISD, with the driver's TS parameters and the sealed box volume.
The ApexJr 2 for a buck tweeters are quite good for this ap -- and decidedly qualify for Frugal-phile(tm) status
Any box you could even fit a 24" hartley in would not be considered small. A small bathroom could fit in most boxes for the 24.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Carlos the 24" Hartley is one of the holy grails of woofers -- not much out there that is its equal
dave
planet10 said:
Nice speakers! They look like a set of phase linears that is an omni design.... They sounded really nice I remember... Is that what they are?
Yeh but those apt50's do sound nice and their response is smooth as silk... not as realistic sounding as a good 2" compression tweet but very nice... that and if he put them on babybutts he would get his dispersion as well...
Nice to see someone finally knew what I was talking about LOL
I think I put them in 100 cubic foot sealed boxes... they did not have enough of a rise to do reflex... I am sort of saving them with the idea of putting them in a big horn design some day...
Its a fun driver... Loved having people over and watch the look on their face when they glanced down at their feet and they could physically see their pant legs vibrating to the music like 1/4 inch or so... LOL
but then these kappas in the khorns do a pretty good job too... for instance when the arizona blows up in the pearl harbor the whole house heaves with pressures up to 135db about 12 feet away... so they are no slouch either...
Do you know if they are still in business? I need to get another cone for one of my 10" harts... I got a little crazy with the pellet gun one day and shot the crap out it by accident LOL
planet10 said:
Suppose you have a 10" woofer with huge excursion, huge magnet, very low VAS that you fit on a sealed 25L cabinet and give you a -6db point at 20Hz.
Is that a bad woofer?
Probably not.
Well, IT DOES EXIST.
Regarding Mr. rnss, which I don't even know his name, he has collected posts of mine talking about different things on a single post just to say 'LOL', he has invented allucinating theories that his speakers go as low as he wants because he uses EQ - just to say 'DUH' -, he has posted false quotes from me, things I did not say, when I posted a link to a site where you could see the specs of some Kimber cables (capacitance, etc.).
I don't go so low in level, and I'm sorry to say but I don't have the minimal respect for this guy.
It's a shame he's on the loose here and not one single post of his goes to texas.
If you guys wanna keep regorgitating about tens of op-amps in the signal path, tons of EQ, speakers that reach the ceiling to make some nice reflections, listening to music at concert levels, etc, be my guests.
But you should someday listen to some live, unamplified instruments to know HOW YOUR SYSTEMS SHOULD SOUND LIKE.
Happy 'orgasmating'.
re cables
Many years ago Nevile Thiele published details of load matching networks that completely swamp any cable or speaker effects.
Putting one of these at the amplfier output and adjusting values until the amplfier output is a square wave with the speaker load enables you to save a lot of money on what are dubious claims, and for the overwhelming majority of testing, inaudible effects of fancy speaker cables.
Many years ago Nevile Thiele published details of load matching networks that completely swamp any cable or speaker effects.
Putting one of these at the amplfier output and adjusting values until the amplfier output is a square wave with the speaker load enables you to save a lot of money on what are dubious claims, and for the overwhelming majority of testing, inaudible effects of fancy speaker cables.
rnrss said:
http://www.ferrario.com/ruether/Audio.html
They are. I thot they were gone, but t turns out they just keep a VERY low profile.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=61132&highlight=
dave
carlosfm said:
Not at all... just that the Hartley 24" is one of the VERY best woofers ever built, right up there with the llambda Apollos (particularilly the rare field coil ones) and a few others.
dave
planet10 said:
Thanks!
I posted that question and then could not find the thread LOL
Awesome I want to replace that 10" cone and now that I see he is still in biz I am starting to toy with the idea of picking up a spare set of sub cones cuz he has to be getting up there in age too so I dont expect I will be able to get replacements to far in the distant future...
Ah electrostats huh... I think it is fair to say zero coloration and another thing I really liked about them is that you get the frontal delay...
Like my corner horns I assume you need a reasonably symetrical room?
rnrss said:
planet10 said:
I did not mean for that to be interpreted as any "1" speaker or driver... I was refering to a speaker system... and I believe this was in rerence to the epos that are -3 at 56 if I remember correctly...
SY said:
yeh and therin lies the whole problem...
I would very much appreciate it if someone who has actually done testing on cabling as well as someone qualified, to make a good legitimate argument against using 2 separate wires as speaker cabling and why in the world anyone should care about anything beyond physical copper size and adequate cable seperation?...
for those who did not see my previous posts I use welding cable. Awg 00. a 10 foot run. now that is overkill but so is my little push mower at 8 horsepower LOL...
but for the sake of those who wish to better understand wiring it would be a nice exercize I think
So far I cannot find anything better than welding cable for conductivity and price and therefore I maintain there is nothing better even at severel times the cost...
Finally someone who truly understands the importance of good damping and the ability to properly apply it to your sytem! Kudos!!BillH said:
I agree with the single pair of wires... If you separate them by say 6 to 10 inches you will have extremely low capacitance, most likely only measureable by a dippy meter...planet10 said:
Couple things to be aware of is the resistance of the wire in the crossover must be added into the equation too... that adds to the amp side of the equation...
First find out what the damping of your amp is (say 1000@8ohms), then to calculate its output impedance:
for df=1000@8ohms, Z=8/1000, Z = .008ohms
so then it would look like this:
Damping =
Speaker coil Re + Speaker coil Z (lowest)
-------------------------------------------
Amp Z + Xover coil R + (Cable R * 2)
that is for the passband...
So with the assumption that a df=200 is optimal that will give you an idea of where you are at how far to go and where the dimininshing returns begin... and then you can judge with the combination of your ears and math to make the determination how far you want to go...
I recommend 2 single cables per side and separate them to get very little capacitance...
Nice to see someone doin it right!!
I dont think you will find to many women will agree with that 🙂planet10 said:
There ya go! One of my favorite things to do with people who claim damping is irrelavant is to simulate 100feet of number 20 wire by putting a pair of 5ohm wire wounds on a dpdt switch and switch in a damping of 400, (back qith the coil) and whatever 5 ohms in series comes out to LOLjanneman said:
They "always" pick the hi damped speaker....
Right, they run different signals at the same time through each pair and it significantly reduces interference across the pairs...planet10 said:
carlosfm said:
My woofer is much better than yours, then.😀
LOL.
Believe or not, it's up to you.
I could provide you with all the data, but I just don't feel like.
Let's make it my little secret, then.
Cheers
Im sure they are Carlos, but I am very happy with my poor taste inaudio and my junky speaker system.... at least I built it...
soongsc said:
Possibly depends on a lot of factors.... but I will share with you guys the events of my weekend...
My brother just left here a few hours ago.
He drove 200 miles to listen to these new kappas I just installed in the khorns... (cheap drivers compared to jbl ev etc, but they do hold their own surprizingly well considering their price)...
I chose higher power drivers than the oem cuz I like loud music...
In doing so I no longer needed a crossover coil...
My damping was 400 with the coil, and now with no xover and awg00 welding cables it is probably around 2700ish right now...
Anyway this all took place as a result of a curl of smoke coming up from the old drivers... LOL (but I was having fun)
Now my brother has the same coil and amp... so his damping is 400 as well and again they say above 200 is inaudible...
So he sat down to audition them... starting at volumes around 70 - 80 db... then 80 - 90 and I quote what he said: "christ these are clean"... "I never heeard such razor sharp bass", "Unbelieveably tight" "mine are mud compared to this" then he took it up to 120 for a bit and said: "you would be able to hear mine just start to puke at 115 and you would be able to hear it was at its limit" "these things seem like they just want to keep right on going"
So whats the point? am I just bragging about my speakers here? No! There are many people here who discount damping and I cannot stress enough how important it is...
Raising damping is the sole reason for putting heavier wires on your system... so I thought I would share this story with you so you can hear a real life example of serious damping and what you will notice if you also take damping serious... not to forget that the image is crisp all the way up and down the scale... considerably better system linearity up and down the scale...
carlosfm said:
I wonder how many people out here really realize what this means?
Most audiophiles I am personally aquanited with listen to their music I would hazzard a guess between 70 and 90 tops as a rule...
I wonder how many people realize that a simple quality acoustic guitar hits your ear at 95+db while playing it? Not to mention the volume of a kettle drum coming out of a dome... and worse a trumpet?
How many people can play their system loud ehough to truly reproduce and rival an instument nearly indistinguishably?
I have seen a few systems on here that I would expect to hear that but not to many....
Most people cant listen to their speakers loud enough to do that with out drilling holes their heads unless they also want to invest in very good spike and peak removal equipment....
So even though he has a point I can count on my 3 hands how many speakers Ihave seen on this site that i would actually expect to be able to hear a reasonably live sounding performance because most people I have found tend to cut corners or do not know what is availiable, or how wade pick through all the bad info floating around to properly optimize what is availiable...
rnrss said:
And so was i
'
Try the run of single strand Cat 5 -- i wouldn't be surprised at all if it is WAY better.
dave
rnrss said:
A pretty bogus assumption... one could legitimately argue that the ideal output impedance is the same as the speaker ie 8 ohm speaker, 8 ohm output impedance (ie 0.125 damping factor).
Ideal damping factor is total dependent on the speaker (system). ie the speaker cannot be considered separate from the amplifier.
dave
rnrss said:
You don't need any hands to count the number of systems that can realistically reproduce a live event. Such a device does not exist (well except for the live event itself)
dave
re damping
A major point is that what an increased source resistance does is to increase Qe, and therby Qt. You have to increase this quite a lot before any really audible effects become apparent. Above its funadanmental resonance the main damping effect on a driver is entirely due to its cone and surround characteristics, this is commonly refered to as stored energy.
The best test would be to see if the source resistance has an appreciable effect on stored energy.
A major point is that what an increased source resistance does is to increase Qe, and therby Qt. You have to increase this quite a lot before any really audible effects become apparent. Above its funadanmental resonance the main damping effect on a driver is entirely due to its cone and surround characteristics, this is commonly refered to as stored energy.
The best test would be to see if the source resistance has an appreciable effect on stored energy.
rnrss said:
I'm still around just biting my tongue while I experiment...
I will look into that tweet thanks 🙂
rnrss said:
I really dont know how different people come to conclusions of what is the best compromise in music...planet10 said:
I guess I feel that since there are a zillion woofers out there that it woudl be criminal to lop off the lower 1 and 1/2 octaves...
To me that is like smelling a pie but net eating it... Watching a footbal game to the end of the third quarter then turning the tube off...
Having sex and not... well you know...
By my way of thinking speakers exist that allow us to have 30 to 20k response and since that is true I cannot honestly say that a speaker with such a hi rolloff is a system that I would enjoy listening to...
Now if speakers did not exist that allow us to get down there then that would be a different story...
So I stand by what I said and my definition of a high end system remains a min of 30 to 18k... and mine is -3 at about 22.8...
I like my pie and I like to eat it too 🙂
well damping factor by definition is loadZ/sourceZ which also by definition states that the higher the load ohms and the lower the source ohms the higher the damping factor will be...planet10 said:
It sounds like and I am not sure since it has been 30 years since I thought about this, but it sounds like you are talking about thevinins power therim maybe? Where optimum power transfer occurs at a matched impedance... Like my cb radio for instance is a matched cable to antenna Z...
I suppose if you can change the speaker cicuit impedance without changing series resistance to accomplish that then I would agree with you on this but since I know no way of doing that I have to disagree because we are not interested in obtaining max power transfer we are interested in max damping and the two require a completely different approach to get completely different results and the damping formula illustrates how damping relates to a speaker system giveing you an indispensable tool tailoring your design for optimum electrical damping...
Think of it this way... If you take an old dc car generator and short it and try to turn you will find it is very difficult to trn into a dead short, whereas if you put increasling larger resistance on it then it becomes increasingly easier to turn...
A speaker is a generator.. just take your finger and push it with a swing needle meter across the terminals and you will see a nice votage generated...
So if we can agree that the the closer we come to a dead short, (negative impedance notwithstanding), that the more highly damped and the more stiff it will become...
Try it on a driver at home... then add resistance to it and it will become easier and easier to push the cone down as the resistance increases across the terminals...
so I hope you can see that by definition of the formula damping factor increases with higher coil r and z or lower source z or the combination of both...
Then about your cat 5? no it really will not compare to what I have now unless the resistance is lower...
Last about the 200 number... no iot is not bogus... Yo umay be overlooking what that really is saying...
The speaker can move anyway it wants it by the amount of current it can generate into the resistor (wire)...
That movement can be calculated by the amount voltage and comparing to the drivers sensitivity rating... I did an illustration of this somewhere back in the 30's where I did all the math proving this....
So when you hit 200 what they are really saying there and this may not be obvious ast first gl;ance but that is the level where they volume or output of the driver while in its lala land can generate is below the level of the program material being listened to... in other words it cannot move enough that you can hear it in with the music... that is really all the 200 does for us...
Then last as far as the inductance and capacitance affecting damping neither do in the passband...
I also illustrated the effects of the infintesimally small amount of inductance and capacitance in speaker cabling regarding z a awg16 zip cord for instance did emough math that anyone who understands and is capable of applying math to stuff will have no problems understanding how I can say these things...
I catch a lot of flaq but thats ok because I have yet to design anything without the extensive use of math and I will stand by the math as correct for that reason... I could never have obtained my ee without it...
I hope this takes some of the mystery out of this for you guys...
planet10 said:
Oh I agree that it is not possible to "perfectly" reproduce a natural instrument... however that said, given unlimited resources and the listener sitting 15feet or more away from the source they would have a very difficult time if it were even possible for them figure out which is which... but that system would only be good for that one instrument and would sound horrible anywhere else...
Audiophilenoob said:
check parts express and see if it will fit your needs... also I just thought of it... I think jbl has a nice one of those babybut tweets too...
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