So, the newer the cable, the better?. Does the new pair of cables supercede the current pair because of some "law of the new" that I'm unaware of?. Do you always lose a "good thing", when returning to the old cables?
How do you know the "new sound" is an improvement. If it's not a measurable improvement, it may just be the equivalent of a bit of smiley graphic eq. Ol' smiley sounds fun and exciting at first, but extended listening will reveal a few fillings, maybe even some caps.
Hmm, I'd say transparency/neutrality was of utmost importance. Trying to change the sound significantly through cables implies that something is wrong elsewhere(source/components), in which case you'd be better finding out and dealing with the problem directly, rather than playing with cables.
As for involvement. Yeah, I've been *involved* in stereo systems, I've forgot about everything else.....then I walked outside the room and noticed just how much more interesting *real sounds* are in comparison to stereo regurgitated sound.
A lot of people seem to forget/don't want to admit just how flawed a stereo reproduction system is, purely because it's just that, a stereo reproduction system. I've never seen so much as one person on this forum question the ability of a stereo mic setup to accurately capture a sound event or the ability of a stereo hi-fi system to reproduce it.
They go around looking for the next upgrade, that certain something that'll make it sound *real*, but it's unobtanium. They may get near. How near, who knows?, YMMV there, but if you think two speakers playing a stereo recording can get anywhere close to faithfully recreating *the real*, you are highly, highly mistaken.
I would of thought driver selection and implementation, would rank slightly higher than this...
derf said:
I know this kind of tactics in posting.
Deturping words and misinformation.
I'll ignore it this time.
You go and read the thread from the beginning, maybe you learn something.
Next...🙄
Firstly, leadbelly, most recordings are made in stereo(usually just by the panning of multitrack mono signals), it's an unfortunate situation, but a fact of life. You can further stereo reproduction, but the overall stereo format is the limiting factor of everything you do. So, I'm still here, trying to further my stereo reproduction, at least for the mean time.
What I'm stating is that a lot of people are searching for *all the qualities of real sound* in the stereo medium, unfortunately, as stated before you can't have all the qualities of real sound in the stereo medium. Stereo was originally chosen for music as it contained *a fair amount* of the qualities needed for reproduction of real music. It only needed two channels(which worked perfectly for the vinyl/radio formats of the time) and subsequently only two speakers(very decor/average user friendly).
I understand I've made quite a scary statement, that turns stuff on it's head. But rather than ask for more information or proofs, you act like someone backed into a corner, willing to defend your *current and correct* belief system to the death.
Am I not allowed in the club, because I don't see stereo reproduction as the only way?
Hmm, I think if I read the thread from beginning to end, I'd just end up quite confused.
As for misinformation, I try my best not to spread it, if someone wants to *prove* I'm misinformed, I will concede defeat, but until *proof* becomes available, I'll hold my ground.
I'm not sure what moved me to put these revelations in the cables thread. I think I'm just trying to make the point that there are much, much bigger fish to fry. Cables are tiddlers in comparison to the giant sized Catfish that is the stereo medium.
What I'm stating is that a lot of people are searching for *all the qualities of real sound* in the stereo medium, unfortunately, as stated before you can't have all the qualities of real sound in the stereo medium. Stereo was originally chosen for music as it contained *a fair amount* of the qualities needed for reproduction of real music. It only needed two channels(which worked perfectly for the vinyl/radio formats of the time) and subsequently only two speakers(very decor/average user friendly).
I understand I've made quite a scary statement, that turns stuff on it's head. But rather than ask for more information or proofs, you act like someone backed into a corner, willing to defend your *current and correct* belief system to the death.
Am I not allowed in the club, because I don't see stereo reproduction as the only way?
Hmm, I think if I read the thread from beginning to end, I'd just end up quite confused.
As for misinformation, I try my best not to spread it, if someone wants to *prove* I'm misinformed, I will concede defeat, but until *proof* becomes available, I'll hold my ground.
I'm not sure what moved me to put these revelations in the cables thread. I think I'm just trying to make the point that there are much, much bigger fish to fry. Cables are tiddlers in comparison to the giant sized Catfish that is the stereo medium.
Stereo was actually big as a three channel system when it was being developed.
I am not satisfied that i accomplished anything with my experiment so today i am going to break the x-over in two and run FOUR wires to the speakers. Its a two channel amp so it definetly wont be truly bi wired but i think it should make a difference, electrically
I am not satisfied that i accomplished anything with my experiment so today i am going to break the x-over in two and run FOUR wires to the speakers. Its a two channel amp so it definetly wont be truly bi wired but i think it should make a difference, electrically
derf said:
I just thought your post was really stupid. It had the arrogant tone of a big ego, but it was obvious you had not read the thread.
And how do you know which camp I am in? 🙂
derf said:
Hey, how do you record an electrical guitar in stereo?
Double the pickups?
Of course it's one track for this instrument.
derf said:
Oooohhh... I'm scared.
Ask?
Information?
Proofs?
derf said:
Ah, you're one of those that like to hear the instruments on your back.
Well then, go to a concert and turn your back to the stage.😀
derf said:
Well, you are confused because you don't know enough, you don't have experience on this matter, you haven't really made enough tests, I understand...
It's always the case for those who say cables don't make any difference.
derf said:
Everyone asks for proofs, it's so easy isn't it?
Well you have to pay.
How much are you willing to $$$ me?
Nothing is free, you think the internet is all free and you can ask someone to test for you, to measure for you, to listen for you.
Well, you need to start PAYING to request for proofs.
Give your own proofs if you want.
Make your own tests.
I have much more things to do, this is very old story for me.
See ya on another galaxy.
I just like to keep my posts concise. If they come across to have some ego thrown in, it's not intended, although I really don't mind either way 😉
I wasn't making reference to you being in one camp or another, I was making reference to you saying "why should you be here, when you find real sounds more interesting, fulfilling than stereo reproduction?". Surely, everyone finds the sounds of real instruments/animals/planes, trains and automobiles more interesting than their stereo reproduction, I'd certainly wonder as to the sanity of someone who prefers stereo over the real thing....
Of course, you are certain, yes?. Ok, so what mic pattern would you use?. Omni and have all the sound from the room and instrument, yet the room reverb from all directions appears on the front speakers?. Maybe cardoid and omit most of the room information, but where does the reverbation go, is this not as valid as electric guitar speaker output?. How exactly do you recreate a soundstage, if you close-mic all your instruments individually?
Yes, I admit it, MY posts are really stupid....
🙄
Even when I'm facing the front of the stage, there is some reverbaration coming from the back wall, aswell as the sides, the floor/ceiling. But you knew this already, didn't you?
You're right, I don't know enough, I don't have experience on the matter, I haven't made many tests. Everything I've said can be written off as null and void
I have to pay, damn, bit of pauper myself. Do some tests, I dare you!. Free proofs or no proofs, ignorance is bliss or at the very least cheap.
derf said:
Maybe I should have been more clear, or maybe you should be less myopic. They're the newer ones because I kept the best ones, which superceded the old ones.
How do you know the "new sound" is an improvement. If it's not a measurable improvement
I don't try to measure wires, and I don't make snap decisions on what's better. I leave them in the system for awhile (hours, days) and see how well they do. I listen for faults, like sibilance or fat bass etc, and I listen for musicality. I also like to go back and compare to the ones I replaced and to other cables that I know.
I've never seen so much as one person on this forum question the ability of a stereo mic setup to accurately capture a sound event or the ability of a stereo hi-fi system to reproduce it.
I came back from an arena concert (Supertramp) and fired up the system to see if I could reproduce the sound. The closest I got was playing a CD thru my HT system in Pro-logic mode. It sounded terrible, no real detail, all mushy and phasey. But it was very close to the way it sounded live. The only thing missing was the hair-trigger bass power. I like my stereos, they make beautiful music, sometimes better, sometimes worse than the real thing. But I agree with you, recordings are limiting and so is stereo. It's still the best we have IMO, I'm going to give up on multi-channel music.
I don't know why I get myself into this kind of thread. I hear important differences in some cables. Others don't. This dance has gone on for thirty years. This thread sure as hell won't resolve it. 😉
audiobomber said:
that's a very scary notion based upon the claims you boast
it's like saying "these speakers have a flatter response than these other ones" without measuring the speakers 😕
I fear this business of the damping factor is often grossly misunderstood. To begin with, the definition being the ratio of driver impedance divided by all EXTERNAL resistances is misleading.
A driver is "braked" by applying a low resistance across its terminals whereby the internally generated current flowing through it, generates a counter force etc. according to the basic electro-mechanical principle. But this current can only flow through the whole circuit, INCLUDING the voice coil resistance (to simplify we will forget about impedances). The usual value of this for an 8 ohm driver is 5 - 6 ohms, so that the actual practical damping factor can never be better than about 1.5. Decreasing the external resistance much below say 1 ohm will have progressively less effect. This can easily be demonstrated in a test setup with square wave input etc. Parameters of enclosure design rapidly take over from any electrical damping influence.
Now I do not want to rain on the parade implying that alleged audible differences with super low damping factors are nonsense. The amplifier output circuit can do funny things depending on the design and what degree of its low output impedance is achieved by feedback instead of the inherently low internal impedance of the output stage itself. [This important factor was analysed long ago by Prof. Matti Otala (Wireless World November 1980), et al.] Amplifier transient stability etc. etc. comes into it.
The only way in which a genuinely high damping factor can be achieved is by a negative amplifier output impedance, which then in fact cancels the loudspeaker resistance. This brings other pit-falls into the picture - but such a discussion falls outside this thread.
A driver is "braked" by applying a low resistance across its terminals whereby the internally generated current flowing through it, generates a counter force etc. according to the basic electro-mechanical principle. But this current can only flow through the whole circuit, INCLUDING the voice coil resistance (to simplify we will forget about impedances). The usual value of this for an 8 ohm driver is 5 - 6 ohms, so that the actual practical damping factor can never be better than about 1.5. Decreasing the external resistance much below say 1 ohm will have progressively less effect. This can easily be demonstrated in a test setup with square wave input etc. Parameters of enclosure design rapidly take over from any electrical damping influence.
Now I do not want to rain on the parade implying that alleged audible differences with super low damping factors are nonsense. The amplifier output circuit can do funny things depending on the design and what degree of its low output impedance is achieved by feedback instead of the inherently low internal impedance of the output stage itself. [This important factor was analysed long ago by Prof. Matti Otala (Wireless World November 1980), et al.] Amplifier transient stability etc. etc. comes into it.
The only way in which a genuinely high damping factor can be achieved is by a negative amplifier output impedance, which then in fact cancels the loudspeaker resistance. This brings other pit-falls into the picture - but such a discussion falls outside this thread.
🙁 Put a QSC on leaving the x-overs intact. Man, it was so much better. MORE POWER , i need more power.
Discussions of this subject often lead to flamefests.
The words "stupid" "Scared" "egotistical" do not usually lead to further useful discussion.
For this reason I ask participants to moderate their own behavior.
Read the last few posts (except the very last 2 before this one), and the points made are on about a second grade level. Let's up the level of discussion, or I'll shut it down.
If I am forced to edit someones post, I will delete the entire thing- I haven't the patience to edit words individually.
Variac
The words "stupid" "Scared" "egotistical" do not usually lead to further useful discussion.
For this reason I ask participants to moderate their own behavior.
Read the last few posts (except the very last 2 before this one), and the points made are on about a second grade level. Let's up the level of discussion, or I'll shut it down.
If I am forced to edit someones post, I will delete the entire thing- I haven't the patience to edit words individually.
VariacVariac said:Discussions of this subject often lead to flamefests.
The words "stupid" "Scared" "egotistical" do not usually lead to further useful discussion.
For this reason I ask participants to moderate their own behavior.
Read the last few posts (except the very last 2 before this one), and the points made are on about a second grade level. Let's up the level of discussion, or I'll shut it down.
If I am forced to edit someones post, I will delete the entire thing- I haven't the patience to edit words individually.
was my post one of those 2 🙁 🙁
Johan Potgieter said:
Dude i am an idiot and i see that what you are trying to say doesnt make sense.
Negative driver impedance ? Are you trying to do a Jan here ? 😱
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