tand at last a switching amp. class d
Hypex I presume?
No wonder the top end is "dull".....
Seriously: Good class-D is the thing for me, it sounds just "right", with very little sonic artefacts. And yes, I do own other amps, even a Audio Note tube amp. But they just dont sound right.
Interesting thread, and I must say I agree with StigErik.
The thing that brought me to diyaudio was speakers. I have since branched out to reading just about every forum.
As I read through the various sections, I am often tempted to: upgrade my soundcard, get a dedicated DAC, build a better amp, build a tube amp, get a good turntable, try building a DAC, etc, etc, etc....
So many flaws in my signal chain, and I could be spending a lot of time and money improving it.
However, I always remind myself: the weakest link in my system is my small listening room, and my speakers. And until I fix those weak links, there's really no point in going from a 16bit/44.1kHz DAC to a 24bit/192kHz DAC - I simply won't hear the difference. Compared to spending the same 200 dollars on a better subwoofer, or a better speaker.
So first and foremost I'll stay a speaker guy, because that's where I'll get the most improvement for my precious money.
I will however someday soon try to build a tube amp, or maybe a passlabs amp. Not so much because I think they will sound much better than my generic solid state & class-d amps, but simply for the fun of it, and the challenge (I'm studying electrical engineering, so it will certainly teach me a lot).
The thing that brought me to diyaudio was speakers. I have since branched out to reading just about every forum.
As I read through the various sections, I am often tempted to: upgrade my soundcard, get a dedicated DAC, build a better amp, build a tube amp, get a good turntable, try building a DAC, etc, etc, etc....
So many flaws in my signal chain, and I could be spending a lot of time and money improving it.
However, I always remind myself: the weakest link in my system is my small listening room, and my speakers. And until I fix those weak links, there's really no point in going from a 16bit/44.1kHz DAC to a 24bit/192kHz DAC - I simply won't hear the difference. Compared to spending the same 200 dollars on a better subwoofer, or a better speaker.
So first and foremost I'll stay a speaker guy, because that's where I'll get the most improvement for my precious money.
I will however someday soon try to build a tube amp, or maybe a passlabs amp. Not so much because I think they will sound much better than my generic solid state & class-d amps, but simply for the fun of it, and the challenge (I'm studying electrical engineering, so it will certainly teach me a lot).
Yep; that's the spec in the UcD180HG datasheet. Might even be enough to pry me off class AB, though I'd like to work through the parts spec on the UcD180 module, HG supply, and HxRs first. Not sure if there's a way of doing that without buying them though and the spec on the ADAU1592's nearly as good for my purposes.Hypex I presume? No wonder the top end is "dull".....
I enjoyed briefly the thought that I might be held in such high regard, but honesty compels me to admit that this was somebody else. I have been seriously ill, though, and I thank you for the good wishes. I'm in remission for the moment.
w
To “StigErik” I have no agenda against nothing, except bad sound.
I bought my first CD 1995. At that time most CD sound quite bad. Today they sound great! And still it’s the same concept.
I think it’s same for digital sorry class-D amplifier. I have not heard anyone yet, that I can play music on and live with. But I working on one know, so we will se what comes out of that.
I have a 25W ICEpower module. I think it sound really bad. I have heard analog amplifier with switched power supply and the sound was quite nasty in the high frequency. When they added a traditional capacitor bank, than it sound much better.
9x dipoles:
To built fast dipole woofers is “tricky”, but there is a non traditional way to do it. I used 3x seas CA25FEY I think it was, with large magnets, with Qts=0,28!!
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A-B test don’t work
I bought my first CD 1995. At that time most CD sound quite bad. Today they sound great! And still it’s the same concept.
I think it’s same for digital sorry class-D amplifier. I have not heard anyone yet, that I can play music on and live with. But I working on one know, so we will se what comes out of that.
I have a 25W ICEpower module. I think it sound really bad. I have heard analog amplifier with switched power supply and the sound was quite nasty in the high frequency. When they added a traditional capacitor bank, than it sound much better.
9x dipoles:
To built fast dipole woofers is “tricky”, but there is a non traditional way to do it. I used 3x seas CA25FEY I think it was, with large magnets, with Qts=0,28!!
____________________________
A-B test don’t work
In general, given (reasonably) adequate power, isn't the distortion of today's typical modern solid state amp on an order of magnitude lower than a speaker in a typical home setting?
Or... "current source" rather than "voltage source" which is what is almost universally used today? There is an interesting book on that subject which my friend plans to read soon - I do not yet know if it has merit...
I bought my first CD ???? (don't remember when, I think it was Substance, by New Order) - back then, they sounded great! Today, most CD sound quite bad.
In most woofers, Qts is dominated by Qes, and Qes cooperates with the output impedance of the amp. The latter is one of the methods to tune system Q. Kind of old fashion, but it works.
This is one of the reasons I have to build or mod the amps to my need. I like OB, my woofers on hand are low-Q, have tried EQ and didn't like, so I modded the amp(s) to have 20 Ohm output impedance to work with 0.29 Qes. Later I built a chip amp that way for this purpose.
As to the channels serving mid-high, I guess I'm still in the obsession with tubes and minimal circuits. To my ears, less gain stages really show its strength (or 'magic' for some). It's not entirely for better details or any other hi-fi reasons etc., it's for a more natural presentation. It's more organic, life-like and breathing. To me, at least.
All these lead to one another trouble, it's not easy to get rid of my old stuff (to buy new things). They are all custom-made to fit my own system.
This is one of the reasons I have to build or mod the amps to my need. I like OB, my woofers on hand are low-Q, have tried EQ and didn't like, so I modded the amp(s) to have 20 Ohm output impedance to work with 0.29 Qes. Later I built a chip amp that way for this purpose.
As to the channels serving mid-high, I guess I'm still in the obsession with tubes and minimal circuits. To my ears, less gain stages really show its strength (or 'magic' for some). It's not entirely for better details or any other hi-fi reasons etc., it's for a more natural presentation. It's more organic, life-like and breathing. To me, at least.
All these lead to one another trouble, it's not easy to get rid of my old stuff (to buy new things). They are all custom-made to fit my own system.
It usually depends on listening volume. Class A, AB, B, XD, etc. all tend to hit lowest distortion near maximum power, but dumping 30-100W into a 90dB efficient driver is pretty loud---perhaps representative of peak SPLs with the system turned up, but not so representative of the average signal level during typical listening. More conversational listening levels in say, the 50 or 60dB range, require output powers of 100uW to 1mW RMS or so, putting less stress on the drivers and rather more on the amps.
In practice it's hard to quantify where driver distortion drops below amp distortion as you end up hitting the ambient noise floor on the acoustic measurements. But sand amplifier power has a way of coming at the expense of GBP, so the correllation between power and linearity's something of an inverse one. And tubes? Eh, not to start a fuss over sonic preferences, but decent drivers are easily more linear.
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I rarely play plugged in. Partly because I haven't DIYed my own amps and speakers for that purpose, partly because I prefer the immediacy of simply picking up an instrument and not needing to mess with mics/pickups/cabs/heads/effects/yadda yadda. Also, most amped live sound isn't high enough quality for me to find it satisfying though, ya know, a good show's not usually based on sound quality. Studio sound's a different case and I certainly wouldn't rule out eventually fooling with tube amps as option for guitar tone. Mostly for fun, but the efficient way to get the tone is to toss the desired impulse response into a convolver like AxeFx.
My preference for playback, however, is to keep the playback system to a good approximation of an ideal all pass filter/transparent/neutral/whatever you want to call it. Most drivers I've looked at have measured in the -50 to -60dB THD/IMD space within their working range whereas the tube amps I'm aware of don't get below -45dB. I'm sure there are some tubes which are more linear and one could always point out finding a driver which does a clean 20Hz is pretty tough. But, generally speaking, yes I'm sure.
My preference for playback, however, is to keep the playback system to a good approximation of an ideal all pass filter/transparent/neutral/whatever you want to call it. Most drivers I've looked at have measured in the -50 to -60dB THD/IMD space within their working range whereas the tube amps I'm aware of don't get below -45dB. I'm sure there are some tubes which are more linear and one could always point out finding a driver which does a clean 20Hz is pretty tough. But, generally speaking, yes I'm sure.
If your controls can include all the upstream into the production of recording, then I'd agree. Otherwise, facing all kinds of imperfect records, we need some 'rendering' for our liking eventually (no matter what that is).
The ultimate goal, I think, is the highest satisfaction brought by the music through the sounds, instead of 'perfect' sound in the first place. Because perfect sound doesn't exist, even when it's played. Not to mention all those processes afterward. Oh, this debate is kind of old, sorry.
As to the distortions, please don't forget good tubes have their strengths in having very low HD at higher orders. That matters very much, too.
Can you relate that back to a DS or Rnonlin (or GedLee) metric? Personally I'd be surprised if the reduction in tall order harmonics relative to sand outweighs the increase in the IMD floor due to higher low order distortion, but I've not seen any data in that direction. (If you're not familiar with the metrics, see Perception and Thresholds of Nonlinear Distortion using Complex Signals.)
first... the distortions we see published may have little relevance to sonics (THD being one) and second, the kinds of distortions that a typical SS amp produce are often significantly different than speakers.
The distortions from speakers tend to be low order and similar in character to sounds that the ear/brain system evolved in over the last X million years.
The distortions from amplifiers tend to be higher order and dissimilar (ie artificial or alien) and the ear/brain can pick up on them at much lower concentrations.
Differences in amplifiers can be heard thru much more coloured loudspeakers despite the amplifiers distortions being at much lower magnitudes than the ones in the speaker if they are of an "unnatural" nature.
dave
Hi, twest,
Thanks for the paper, guess I can't argue with you on that. But I won't (and don't have time to) go through that 90 pages of paper, though.
I don't think that paper can explain why tube and sand sound different, and why I like tube more.
And planet10 said it for me.
Also, I happened to see this: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/100392-beyond-ariel-741.html#post2362292, which was after my previous post, reflects my own experience quite well -- when my system sings badly, I listen to a limited numbers of my collection; when it's doing well, I keep finding those CDs I seldom touch -- I think that's the satifactions brought by the music, instead of sounds.
Are we switching identities here? Now who's the musician and who's the engineer?
ps. not an EE, but I've been an engineer for quite some years....
Thanks for the paper, guess I can't argue with you on that. But I won't (and don't have time to) go through that 90 pages of paper, though.
I don't think that paper can explain why tube and sand sound different, and why I like tube more.
And planet10 said it for me.
Also, I happened to see this: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/100392-beyond-ariel-741.html#post2362292, which was after my previous post, reflects my own experience quite well -- when my system sings badly, I listen to a limited numbers of my collection; when it's doing well, I keep finding those CDs I seldom touch -- I think that's the satifactions brought by the music, instead of sounds.
Are we switching identities here? Now who's the musician and who's the engineer?
ps. not an EE, but I've been an engineer for quite some years....
Certainly yes.
The mammal ear/brain has evolved to pull out "things that shouldn't be there" from deep in the "noise". Those that couldn't were "eliminated" from the gene pool.
dave
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