Latest rev is only 5 ½ years old.But al the drivers have been “upgraded” … towards the FFxx5wk as far as specs go. The new drivers work fine in the V-series, but the Spawn might be a bit more finicky. @Scottmoose?
dave
dave
Wohoo, it's open! Thank you, @Cal Weldon 
You won't believe how many threads I had read "incognito" before I signed up.
I wanted to ask you guys some questions, maybe specifically @Scottmoose and @planet10
A few weeks ago I built a pair of Voigt-pipes and, and they are amazing. Concenring the drivers, I wanted to go with Tang Band W8 2145's, but then I got my hands on a pair of used Tang Band 1772s which were incredibly cheap, I just couldn't pass up that opportunity. Now the Voigt Pipes are playing and .... I want to build another pair of speakers
While thinking about building a pair of BIBs I came across the kirishima-plans, and they instantly won me over, they look fantastic. Since I have read that the W8 2145's are more suited for TQWTs and the 1772s are actually meant for a horn, I thought to myself: Why not try it out and take the 1772s out of the Voigt Pipe and build a horn with them, while putting two W8 2145's into the Voigt Pipes?
Long story short: Do you think the Kirishima (built according to plan) could work with the 1772's, and not the Fostex they were originally designed for?
(their resonance frequency is relatively close, their Qts is almost the same, but the Vas is almost double that of the Fostex, hmmm)
Also on top of that, maybe even more important: I have read lots and lots of articles and papers about Voigt Pipes and Horns. I have read multiple times that horns usually lack bass and can sound, well, "horny". However I haven't had the chance to listen to some horns, or BVR horns specifically, so that's only theoretical hearsay and might be outdated...? That's why I wanted to ask you, do the spawns still produce "enough bass" without an added subwoofer?
(My Voigt Pipes are connected to my PC most of the time via an amp, of course, but a CD & a vinyl-player are connected to the amp, too. That means most of the time I listen to music or watch films via the PC. My current Voigt Pipes have a nice bass. Direct and "full", while still being "crisp" and precise. Someone compared bass to salt where you miss it initially if you're used to punchy, muddy bass, but once your taste has accustomed, you don't miss it anymore. Same thing happened to me. So I don't want a big boomy bass response, just something to with enough punch and preciceness). From what I have read, the Spawn-BVRs can deliver that, right?
You won't believe how many threads I had read "incognito" before I signed up. I wanted to ask you guys some questions, maybe specifically @Scottmoose and @planet10
A few weeks ago I built a pair of Voigt-pipes and, and they are amazing. Concenring the drivers, I wanted to go with Tang Band W8 2145's, but then I got my hands on a pair of used Tang Band 1772s which were incredibly cheap, I just couldn't pass up that opportunity. Now the Voigt Pipes are playing and .... I want to build another pair of speakers
While thinking about building a pair of BIBs I came across the kirishima-plans, and they instantly won me over, they look fantastic. Since I have read that the W8 2145's are more suited for TQWTs and the 1772s are actually meant for a horn, I thought to myself: Why not try it out and take the 1772s out of the Voigt Pipe and build a horn with them, while putting two W8 2145's into the Voigt Pipes?
Long story short: Do you think the Kirishima (built according to plan) could work with the 1772's, and not the Fostex they were originally designed for?
(their resonance frequency is relatively close, their Qts is almost the same, but the Vas is almost double that of the Fostex, hmmm)
Also on top of that, maybe even more important: I have read lots and lots of articles and papers about Voigt Pipes and Horns. I have read multiple times that horns usually lack bass and can sound, well, "horny". However I haven't had the chance to listen to some horns, or BVR horns specifically, so that's only theoretical hearsay and might be outdated...? That's why I wanted to ask you, do the spawns still produce "enough bass" without an added subwoofer?
(My Voigt Pipes are connected to my PC most of the time via an amp, of course, but a CD & a vinyl-player are connected to the amp, too. That means most of the time I listen to music or watch films via the PC. My current Voigt Pipes have a nice bass. Direct and "full", while still being "crisp" and precise. Someone compared bass to salt where you miss it initially if you're used to punchy, muddy bass, but once your taste has accustomed, you don't miss it anymore. Same thing happened to me. So I don't want a big boomy bass response, just something to with enough punch and preciceness). From what I have read, the Spawn-BVRs can deliver that, right?
Not really. And not in Kirishima. And i my experience a quite coloured driver. Signifing that there is a whle new world of drivers to explore.
Scott has done a recreation of the well-loved Brines’ ML-TL for them.
Which on first pass means a box twice as large.
[quotre]I have read multiple times that horns usually lack bass and can sound, well, "horny”.[/quote]
Lack bass? Ask someone with FHXL. Horny. Just a bad design and a poor driver. Note that proper modeling software did not show up until Y2K and stuff from before that is guessed based on the math.
dave
Thanks for the tip! where can I find pictures or plans for these? I looked through the woden-design and the frugal-horn-sites and didn't find them.
Because you mentioned that: How important is it to keep the driver's Vas "in line" with the speaker's volume? I also noticed that sometimes a speaker's volume exceeds the driver's Vas by a lot. Is it important to keep the speaker's volume roughly equivalent to that of the driver, like 1:3 or 1:4? That's a question I've had for a long time, but I found no real answer for it. (Maybe I overlooked it, that's possible, too!)
Exactly. Hmm. How about the FE 206 NV then?
Borderline. They're OK in a horn, they don't require one.
Yes, but not as well, as Dave says. The were designed for the old En series unit, with a Qt of 0.19, the FE208ESigma + relevant supertweeter being an alternative. Qt on the 1772 is acceptable if you could take it independently (and providing you don't put them on the end of a high output impedance amplifier). Fs is fine also. However, it gets more problematic when you combine that increased Q with the significantly higher volume compliance; basically you need a larger horn to maintain LF gain. Ignoring other factors, they'll start dropping off < 60Hz.
Depends on the design. A lot of horns are too small for their intended purpose & as a result they suffer from either poor extension and / or lack of gain due to that; the compromised expansion (bulk) also usually means you're going to have some audible harmonic (pipe) resonances somewhere.
Not hearsay; Kirishima isn't really what most would define as a BVR however, except by technicality (all chambered back horns can theoretically be described that way if you go to a fundamental level) since it doesn't rely on any significant amount of Helmholtz action for gain in its operating BW.
Hmm, ok then.
To break it down: I've built some Voigt Pipes with 1772 and the building-bug bit me, I want to build a second pair.
Out of all designs that I have come across so far, I am torn between building the Kirishima, or a BIB.
I already have Voigt Pipes, so building a BIB would be like doing what I have already done.
While I don't hate doing repetitive things, I have the urge to try out something new first, so a Kirishima double-horn would be cool.
(Also it's possible I might have to move in a year. In the new place I will most likely have neighbours above me. So out of "socio-compatible" reasons, maybe the Kirishima is the better choice because the BIB fires up at the ceiling no matter what, while the Kirishima will be pointed at my ears).
Currently there's noone living below or above me (I hope), so right now it's possible to crank up the volume a little more, but most likely not in the future.
Another thing speaking for the Kirishima's is the fact that if I don't have to move and if I want to build BIBs in the future, they should be finished quickly since they're much easier to build than the Kirishima. But right now while I have the motivation and time, why not do the double horns.
Which speakers would work better with the Kirishma than the 1772? The TB W8 2145s, which have a lower Vas (~69L)? Or the Fostex FE 206 NV which are available those days and roughly around 150€/$.
The 1772 has a Fs of 42Hz, a Qts of 0.27, a Qms of 1.02 and a Qes of 0,36 with a Vas of 94L.
The 2145 has a Fs of 40Hz, a Qts of 0.54, a Qms of 2,02 and a Qes of 0.74 with a Vas of 63L.
The Fostex has a Fs 45Hz, a Qts of 0.26, has a Qms of 7,25 and a Qes of 0.27 with a Vas of 50L
(I have no problem taking the 1772s out of my Voigt Pipes and using them in new speakers, I'd just put other 8" drivers into the Pipes)
Cost-wise, I'd like to stay on the cheaper side and spending ~100-150€/$ per chassis would be my upper limit. Building material will either be MDF or plywood, whichever the local hardware-store has in store. (Personally I'm leaning towards plywood, though I'll work with what is available)
I hope I'm not annoying you, @Scottmoose and @planet10, but could you maybe run a give your opinion on if the 1772s, 2145s or maybe the 206 NVs would be better suited for the Kirishimas? If I used the 1772s or the 206 NVs, should I make certain adjustments to the Kirishima measurements?
I don't want to just give it a try, only to find out I wasted time and money due to blind actionism.
To break it down: I've built some Voigt Pipes with 1772 and the building-bug bit me, I want to build a second pair.
Out of all designs that I have come across so far, I am torn between building the Kirishima, or a BIB.
I already have Voigt Pipes, so building a BIB would be like doing what I have already done.
While I don't hate doing repetitive things, I have the urge to try out something new first, so a Kirishima double-horn would be cool.
(Also it's possible I might have to move in a year. In the new place I will most likely have neighbours above me. So out of "socio-compatible" reasons, maybe the Kirishima is the better choice because the BIB fires up at the ceiling no matter what, while the Kirishima will be pointed at my ears).
Currently there's noone living below or above me (I hope
), so right now it's possible to crank up the volume a little more, but most likely not in the future.Another thing speaking for the Kirishima's is the fact that if I don't have to move and if I want to build BIBs in the future, they should be finished quickly since they're much easier to build than the Kirishima. But right now while I have the motivation and time, why not do the double horns.
Which speakers would work better with the Kirishma than the 1772? The TB W8 2145s, which have a lower Vas (~69L)? Or the Fostex FE 206 NV which are available those days and roughly around 150€/$.
The 1772 has a Fs of 42Hz, a Qts of 0.27, a Qms of 1.02 and a Qes of 0,36 with a Vas of 94L.
The 2145 has a Fs of 40Hz, a Qts of 0.54, a Qms of 2,02 and a Qes of 0.74 with a Vas of 63L.
The Fostex has a Fs 45Hz, a Qts of 0.26, has a Qms of 7,25 and a Qes of 0.27 with a Vas of 50L
(I have no problem taking the 1772s out of my Voigt Pipes and using them in new speakers, I'd just put other 8" drivers into the Pipes)
Cost-wise, I'd like to stay on the cheaper side and spending ~100-150€/$ per chassis would be my upper limit. Building material will either be MDF or plywood, whichever the local hardware-store has in store. (Personally I'm leaning towards plywood, though I'll work with what is available)
I hope I'm not annoying you, @Scottmoose and @planet10, but could you maybe run a give your opinion on if the 1772s, 2145s or maybe the 206 NVs would be better suited for the Kirishimas? If I used the 1772s or the 206 NVs, should I make certain adjustments to the Kirishima measurements?
I don't want to just give it a try, only to find out I wasted time and money due to blind actionism.
No opinion needed -the NV is by far the nearest of the three to suiting that cabinet; 1772 as noted is borderline & would really benefit from a larger horn; the 2145 is basically useless for this particular load, so probably better to scratch that one, if it's Kirishima you want to build. It's not really a horn driver -possible in a dedicated design, but not for this particular application. Hope that helps a bit.
-the NV is by far the nearest of the three to suiting that cabinet; 1772 as noted is borderline & would really benefit from a larger horn; the 2145 is basically useless for this particular load, so probably better to scratch that one, if it's Kirishima you want to build. It's not really a horn driver -possible in a dedicated design, but not for this particular application. Hope that helps a bit.
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Alrighty then, that settles it, the next speakers I will tackle are the Kirishimas.No opinion needed
Ouuh, that looks nice!
Maybe........bummer
considering how many times I've (re) posted across the various forums the basic formulas that govern vented alignments (from the Margolis-Small's HP 67/97 & 41C calculator program if wanting all the math for vented, sealed: http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=3902). Vented net volume (Vb) (L) = 20*Vas*Qts'^3.3 (Ft^3 = (Vb)*~28.31685)
Vented box tuning (Fb) (Hz) = 0.42*Fs*Qts'^-0.96
F3 (Hz) = Fs*0.28*Qts^-1.4
Note that Qts' dominates: (Qts'): (Qts) + any added series resistance (Rs): http://www.mh-audio.nl/Calculators/newqts.html
From this it's hopefully obvious that the only reason we need to double Vas/box volume (Vb) and vents when adding an identical driver or the driver's specs are near enough identical except for some ratio of Vas (TTBOMK there's no chart) is because all the rest of the required specs are already accounted for.
All that said, another alignment I've repeated when it seems appropriate is the pioneer's version of a max flat alignment: Vb = Vas/1.44, Fb = Fs and for high power/prosound apps, Fb = 1.56x Fs and of course where its total specs are appropriate for vented alignments, which in T/S lingo means its Qts' spec.
There's much BS across the WWW that the pioneer's were basically clueless before T/S, but in short, IIRC I believe the inventor Tom Danley responded best to this by complaining that the "ancients keep stealing all my inventions"!
Regardless, the main difference between then and now is mainly one of desired performance goals in that due to a lack of available power at reasonable cost/size they only had one goal; the max practical acoustical efficiency at the max practical high SQ speech intelligibility over a wide arc be it for public address (PA) or cinema palace audiences, so big/huge boxes, horns with high efficiency, adjustable field coil drivers that when coupled to impedance matching amps = today's usable sealed, vented box, horn's range of Qts'. Imagine that! Clueless? I think not.
You're welcome!
Well, you're one up on me, I'm mostly clueless WRT math, relying on on-line freeware to do much of it, though do have a good intuitive understanding of the 'physics of the situation'.
Anyway, re abbreviations, always feel free to ask rather than assume, though googling the forums often returns multiple places to get the info such as this one for T/S.
My fave math solver
Well, you're one up on me, I'm mostly clueless WRT math, relying on on-line freeware to do much of it, though do have a good intuitive understanding of the 'physics of the situation'.
Anyway, re abbreviations, always feel free to ask rather than assume, though googling the forums often returns multiple places to get the info such as this one for T/S.
My fave math solver
Damn, such a compact and precise write-up is really welcome. I had to google all abbreviations and names, it's nice to have them together in one place.
concerning the Kirishima-horn, I was at the hardware store today and even though they are not allowed to saw down to small sizes, a friendly guy helped me out and cut down some MDF into all the right sizes, I'm really glad about that. Plywood was also on my list, but even "bad" plywood is more than twice the price here in Germany, with good plywood being ~2.5x as expensive, which is not within my budget at the moment. MDF will do for now.
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