Oh no. This exact sort of data copied over is precisely the sort of thing I was desperately trying to keep off the forums, particularly for Martin's sake. The lengthy argument we've just had & Dave sent to Texas was from my POV specifically about this sort of thing being posted & my trying to prevent it. I've no issue (how could I?) with people knowing what the sheets are etc., but not exact data entry for heaven's sake.
There are semi-pro box-shifters who traul forums (non-members) on a regular basis, looking for just this sort of data, and it's those types (not the big majors -they can easily do it themselves, as Martin commented before) that get me worried. Many of them aren't especially good designers -they don't have to be, if a methodology of roughly modelleing a cabinet is laid out clearly in front of them. And these are exactly the type of cabinets they're looking for too. How much do you want to bet that none would buy a commercial MathCAD licence? Sure, they're not difficult to back engineer, but there's no point in making life as easy as possible for them is there?
Please -don't post the exact data on the forums. Someone lurking will grab it. 100% certainty. Discuss to your heart's content via PM. That's great & I add that I'm really glad they interest people. Or you can ask me a question too you know. I was the bloke that did the originals remember.
There are semi-pro box-shifters who traul forums (non-members) on a regular basis, looking for just this sort of data, and it's those types (not the big majors -they can easily do it themselves, as Martin commented before) that get me worried. Many of them aren't especially good designers -they don't have to be, if a methodology of roughly modelleing a cabinet is laid out clearly in front of them. And these are exactly the type of cabinets they're looking for too. How much do you want to bet that none would buy a commercial MathCAD licence? Sure, they're not difficult to back engineer, but there's no point in making life as easy as possible for them is there?
Please -don't post the exact data on the forums. Someone lurking will grab it. 100% certainty. Discuss to your heart's content via PM. That's great & I add that I'm really glad they interest people. Or you can ask me a question too you know. I was the bloke that did the originals remember.
OK, in posting the above, what I didn't do was answer your question (but please be careful about posting too much detail on a public forum -PMs are better for that). Sorry about that & I'm glad they interest you. Yes, I can see where you've gone wrong. If you fire me an email I can put you straight.
Oh, heck with it. It's too late now. Once these cabinets went up on the site it was inevitable. I have to accept that, and I apologise to Martin for any possible losses in future, as MathCAD can at least roughly model the general response trends.
I'm not going to design anything else for the FH site of any kind as of this moment, to at least minimise the damage I've caused. You guys can take it from there. Good luck with the designs, glad they've inspired you guys, and two general hints:
1) Remember what your software can and cannot do, and
2) Be careful just how much specific technical detail about models & techniques you post. Yes, I know people defend freedom of information on forums -so they should. I do too. But please remember that not everyone is honest, or has the same laudable motives as you yourselves have, especially some of the non-forum members / vultures who are watching. Not usually the big-boys, but the smaller ones can cause even more problems.
I'm not going to design anything else for the FH site of any kind as of this moment, to at least minimise the damage I've caused. You guys can take it from there. Good luck with the designs, glad they've inspired you guys, and two general hints:
1) Remember what your software can and cannot do, and
2) Be careful just how much specific technical detail about models & techniques you post. Yes, I know people defend freedom of information on forums -so they should. I do too. But please remember that not everyone is honest, or has the same laudable motives as you yourselves have, especially some of the non-forum members / vultures who are watching. Not usually the big-boys, but the smaller ones can cause even more problems.
Having heard Aquapirhanas Sachikos I think it's a terrible shame but your decision is yours alone.
The offer of a room is still open if you do get the time to come over for a listen to them some time.
John
The offer of a room is still open if you do get the time to come over for a listen to them some time.
John
Yes, that's Jeff Carder. Nice bloke, Dave & I talk with him quite a bit. He's licenced Saburo, Hiro & Sachiko as per the use of designs terms on the FH site for commercial production. Finish, from the pictures I've seen, is as high quality furniture.
Scottmoose said:
Hey, isn't this exactly what the whole DIY/"open-source" thing is all about?
Many of the designs are not a first-timer's project, and if you're not willing to take that chance, a licensed builder (as per the website's terms of use *) can satisfy your requirements, often including custom finishes, etc. Ultimately a web of audio crafters with locations no further than 400-500 miles away would be nice - many of these enclosures could cost more to package and ship than to build.
* http://www.frugal-horn.com/use.html
As Scott related previously, it probably won't take long to identify and deal with anyone abusing the information.
Hello all. I got some time to put some more damping in the cabinet as well as apply the felt to the spokes as was suggested. I found a way to apply the felt without using glue which I view as being a plus. I simply cut the strips to size and wrapped them around and smashed them into the modeling clay slightly. I then came back over the top with more modeling clay to seal it all together. Right now I have the carpet matting on the top, bottom, and back of the chamber. And of course the matting on the back of the magnet. I did not apply any felt to the magnet but I may later. I suspect I'm at the level of diminishing returns. I took care that the matting didn't inpede the port at all.
From a subjective viewpoint there is undeniably a cleaner sound coming from the speakers than before I added any damping material. I don't know if I have to much damping material in the cabinet or not but it sounds very good to my ears.
From a subjective viewpoint there is undeniably a cleaner sound coming from the speakers than before I added any damping material. I don't know if I have to much damping material in the cabinet or not but it sounds very good to my ears.
Scottmoose - I apologize for causing concern and hope that you will rethink posting new designs on the FH site. You have a PM.
Does the 206 have better high extension than the 207?
If i were to add a supertweeter to the 207 in a Chang DM BVR, is it better on top inside the cabinet, or outside where its adjustable (front-back, up-down)?
![IMGDEAD]](/community/proxy.php?image=http%3A%2F%2F%5BIMGDEAD%5Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fpic16.picturetrail.com%2FVOL686%2F2650556%2F5287668%2F309783875.jpg%5B%2FIMGDEAD%5D&hash=cf2af2b4a2a83087599f64e605213077)
If i were to add a supertweeter to the 207 in a Chang DM BVR, is it better on top inside the cabinet, or outside where its adjustable (front-back, up-down)?
Marsfrogie said:
G'day Marsfrogie,
Glad to see you're getting improved sound with the damping.
Have you had a chance to try my suggestion in Post #1359 yet?
This will take things to a whole new level.
Cheers,
Alex
No I actually won't have much time for tweaking until at least next week. Right now I've been working on trying to blend a sub into the picture. I still can't decide if I'm happy with the position of the speakers. I find that the soundstage sounds better after some listening fatigue and that it sounds spaced out and slightly non coherent early in the listening session. Also contemplating ways of taking some of the edge off of the speakers as they lend themselves to being rather unpleasant at times. Any sort of complicated music like rock (not the primary material played) starts to become very difficult to endure for any extended period of time. I hope the speakers are not too big for the room I have them in. My polk audio RTi4's seem to sound more blended in and pleasant at this point.
Marsfrogie said:
The pattern treatment I described will address these issues!
The speakers I use are Voight pipes with FE167E's that punch well beyond their weight simply because of the addition of the pattern to the baffles and port (mouth?).
I know what I'm saying seems ridiculous, but the pattern will change your listening experience - for the better.
Star wars voice: "Marsfrogie, Marsfrogie - use the pattern!"
Cheers,
Alex
My Sachikos are now playing music! Initial impressions:
Relief that they worked, and right sounded same as left.
Unexpectedly - a slightly constricted sound ... hmmm. But there's a few feet of new silver/teflon cable in there - and this sounded a bit like non-burnt-in cables. So no panic. (ps I'm a cable-believer). And there's still speaker positioning to play with.
So out for the day and left them playing to start the burn-in. (ps for the poster who claimed its the "ears that burn-in", how does that work when you are not even there?).
Position: various - less toe-in suddenly hit the spot for imaging. The imaging here is fantastic. No holes, a singer plus his guitar are precisely positioned. Best I've heard.
Then chunks of about half my CD collection. I will report my impressions here track by track, but just say this lot is a pretty good test of a hifi.
Pics still to be uploaded ... soon. And will test the complex-rock thing. Very dynamic: the difference between quiet/loud passages of classical stuff is pronounced.
So far - these are obvious keepers and the big IPL Transmission Lines will go, but it's not a TOTAL walkover.
More to come ...
Relief that they worked, and right sounded same as left.
Unexpectedly - a slightly constricted sound ... hmmm. But there's a few feet of new silver/teflon cable in there - and this sounded a bit like non-burnt-in cables. So no panic. (ps I'm a cable-believer). And there's still speaker positioning to play with.
So out for the day and left them playing to start the burn-in. (ps for the poster who claimed its the "ears that burn-in", how does that work when you are not even there?).
Position: various - less toe-in suddenly hit the spot for imaging. The imaging here is fantastic. No holes, a singer plus his guitar are precisely positioned. Best I've heard.
Then chunks of about half my CD collection. I will report my impressions here track by track, but just say this lot is a pretty good test of a hifi.
Pics still to be uploaded ... soon. And will test the complex-rock thing. Very dynamic: the difference between quiet/loud passages of classical stuff is pronounced.
So far - these are obvious keepers and the big IPL Transmission Lines will go, but it's not a TOTAL walkover.
More to come ...
Re Marsfrogie's issues, we seem to be fluctuating here from 'sounding very good' to 'being rather unpleasent.' FWIW, I suspect the issues mentioned fall into three main categories.
1) Damping. Adjust it to taste. The air-cavity needs some, a little at the first fold & that should do the job quite nicely in most cases.
2) Driver / amplifier. The 206 is not exactly a shrinking violet. It thrives on SE valve amps (primarily because it was designed with them in mind, just as Lowthers are), Nelson's First Pass F1 / F2 current-source amps, or his Zen designs. Your existing T-amp, although good for what it is, is not in the same league and some of the characteristics you describe are roughly what I'd expect from a 206 fed by one of those t-amps. Feed it with some better quality power & you'll get improvements. I suspect an improved power supply for your existing amp would improve things somewhat.
I'd also look into modifying the 206 further -you've done the damping; next up I'd ground the chassis (simple wire from chassis to - terminal) and add phase plugs. Then look at EnABL for them, and, while you're at it, follow Alex's suggestion & apply EnABL to the mouths. I very much doubt it'll do anything to the bass frequencies, where wavelengths are so long, but it could well do something about any potential HF noise, caused by the sheering action of the wavefront on rarefaction that GM mentioned before.
3) A loudspeaker is a system, consisting of driver, cabinet, amplifier & room. These cabinets were designed for big spaces -20ft x 15ft or larger, and to be listened to from a minimum of 8ft away, or the balance will be off. If in a smaller room, you'll need to damp things down more (& still be a decent distance from them).
1) Damping. Adjust it to taste. The air-cavity needs some, a little at the first fold & that should do the job quite nicely in most cases.
2) Driver / amplifier. The 206 is not exactly a shrinking violet. It thrives on SE valve amps (primarily because it was designed with them in mind, just as Lowthers are), Nelson's First Pass F1 / F2 current-source amps, or his Zen designs. Your existing T-amp, although good for what it is, is not in the same league and some of the characteristics you describe are roughly what I'd expect from a 206 fed by one of those t-amps. Feed it with some better quality power & you'll get improvements. I suspect an improved power supply for your existing amp would improve things somewhat.
I'd also look into modifying the 206 further -you've done the damping; next up I'd ground the chassis (simple wire from chassis to - terminal) and add phase plugs. Then look at EnABL for them, and, while you're at it, follow Alex's suggestion & apply EnABL to the mouths. I very much doubt it'll do anything to the bass frequencies, where wavelengths are so long, but it could well do something about any potential HF noise, caused by the sheering action of the wavefront on rarefaction that GM mentioned before.
3) A loudspeaker is a system, consisting of driver, cabinet, amplifier & room. These cabinets were designed for big spaces -20ft x 15ft or larger, and to be listened to from a minimum of 8ft away, or the balance will be off. If in a smaller room, you'll need to damp things down more (& still be a decent distance from them).
Scotmoose,
I've already done some amp-rolling with the Sachikos:
An EL34 Valve Amp. AFAIK at low volumes there's a lot of Class-A going on. This is on the WARM end of the valve amp continuum.
Three different T-Amps (Original T, Trends 10.1, Charlize).
I've also got an Musical Fidelity AX-1 solid state still to try. And have not put any vinyl through them yet.
Yes I hear you on the SET thing, and have looked at things there ... I would really need to demo one because it is a significant outlay. All in good time. The wife can only take so much at once!!
All the above amps sounded different. So I will make allowance for amp failings when I review the speakers.
Forgot about the grounding tweak. Will do.
I've already done some amp-rolling with the Sachikos:
An EL34 Valve Amp. AFAIK at low volumes there's a lot of Class-A going on. This is on the WARM end of the valve amp continuum.
Three different T-Amps (Original T, Trends 10.1, Charlize).
I've also got an Musical Fidelity AX-1 solid state still to try. And have not put any vinyl through them yet.
Yes I hear you on the SET thing, and have looked at things there ... I would really need to demo one because it is a significant outlay. All in good time. The wife can only take so much at once!!
All the above amps sounded different. So I will make allowance for amp failings when I review the speakers.
Forgot about the grounding tweak. Will do.
Alan,
You beat me to it.
WRT amps, SE EL34 is good IMO, otherwise, I'm not a huge fan. There are better valves out there. Actually, Nelson's First Watt amps are my favourite at the moment -value for money is off the map. About £100 to build, you'd have to spend something in the nature of 10 times that, if starting from scratch, to build a valve amp that's any better, and I shudder to think how much you'd have to spend on a commercial amp that'd match it.
Re the cable, I'm something of a sceptic personally (not about if they can affect the behaviour of the components they tie together, just about the drivel that surrounds the subject). However, FWIW, a lot of people, comment that you don't want silver anywhere near Fostex drivers -they apparantly don't like it. I can't honestly see why it should make a blind bit of difference, but YMMV of course. You might want to experiment. Ditto for the damping.
Break-in is not a myth. Not with FR drivers, especially when horn loaded. Big motor, stiff suspension, excursion tightly controlled. It'll take a year before those 206s are approaching their optimal performance. Your slightly constricted sound will gradually open as the driver suspension loosens up (and I suspect when you play with the damping slightly & feed them with some really high quality power).
Remember guys: no FR driver, however loaded, will beat a good equivalent multiway on heavy rock. They just can't handle the bass transient swings. They do many things very well, but that's not what they're designed for.
You beat me to it.
WRT amps, SE EL34 is good IMO, otherwise, I'm not a huge fan. There are better valves out there. Actually, Nelson's First Watt amps are my favourite at the moment -value for money is off the map. About £100 to build, you'd have to spend something in the nature of 10 times that, if starting from scratch, to build a valve amp that's any better, and I shudder to think how much you'd have to spend on a commercial amp that'd match it.
Re the cable, I'm something of a sceptic personally (not about if they can affect the behaviour of the components they tie together, just about the drivel that surrounds the subject). However, FWIW, a lot of people, comment that you don't want silver anywhere near Fostex drivers -they apparantly don't like it. I can't honestly see why it should make a blind bit of difference, but YMMV of course. You might want to experiment. Ditto for the damping.
Break-in is not a myth. Not with FR drivers, especially when horn loaded. Big motor, stiff suspension, excursion tightly controlled. It'll take a year before those 206s are approaching their optimal performance. Your slightly constricted sound will gradually open as the driver suspension loosens up (and I suspect when you play with the damping slightly & feed them with some really high quality power).
Remember guys: no FR driver, however loaded, will beat a good equivalent multiway on heavy rock. They just can't handle the bass transient swings. They do many things very well, but that's not what they're designed for.
Cheers, Scotmoose
The drivers have been playing pretty much constantly for the last few months. They are well broken in - and the break-in was very noticeable. They have phase plugs and EnABL.
Silver + Fostexes. Not come across these comments before. Currently bass seems a little more rolled off than I expected (perhaps improving), but the mids and treble are silky smooth and very transparent. Given the construction, won't be easy to experiment here. The actual cables are JPS Alumilloy anyway, just the internal wiring is silver.
Sachiko's bass is interesting. FR smooth (which is IMO one of the most important features of hifi bass). Has a different presentation to other speakers I know, which I will try to describe when I write up the details.
Damping - I'll leave that for later. I have done lots of playing-with-damping in the TLs, so I sort of know how it affects the sound.
Alan
The drivers have been playing pretty much constantly for the last few months. They are well broken in - and the break-in was very noticeable. They have phase plugs and EnABL.
Silver + Fostexes. Not come across these comments before. Currently bass seems a little more rolled off than I expected (perhaps improving), but the mids and treble are silky smooth and very transparent. Given the construction, won't be easy to experiment here. The actual cables are JPS Alumilloy anyway, just the internal wiring is silver.
Sachiko's bass is interesting. FR smooth (which is IMO one of the most important features of hifi bass). Has a different presentation to other speakers I know, which I will try to describe when I write up the details.
Damping - I'll leave that for later. I have done lots of playing-with-damping in the TLs, so I sort of know how it affects the sound.
Alan
G'day Scottmoose,
The EnABL pattern I described can be applied to BIBs as well.
I have FE167E's in Voight pipes (Half BIBs? 😀) producing wonderful deep bass directly as a result of the EnABL pattern to the port.
The pattern seems to allow the bass to exit the cabinet more effectively.
The effect on bass transients is clearly audible.
Do you still use your BIBs?
Would you consider trying EnABL in the mouths?
Cheers,
Alex
Not at the moment -I don't have the space for them at present, so I'm running a pair of MLTLs of my own design with 167s.
Nope, the Lowther Club of Norway Voigt (no 'h' -P.G.A.H. Voigt you know 😉 ) Pipe is rather different to the BIB -the latter is a horn, & arguably closer to what he intended, the former a mildly mass-loaded TQWT. I can see EnABL probably having an effect on both -I imagine if it did anything, it would clean up higher-frequency issues around the terminus / vent & thereby subjectively improve the bass frequencies. Bit like adding a supertweeter appears to clean up everything below it.
I can't see any good reason not to experiment with it on the vents of my MLTLs. Equally, I can't honestly say I believe it will do anything on cabinets of this type, but I'm perfectly willing to be proven wrong. Wouldn't be the first time & it'll be interesting to find out.
Nope, the Lowther Club of Norway Voigt (no 'h' -P.G.A.H. Voigt you know 😉 ) Pipe is rather different to the BIB -the latter is a horn, & arguably closer to what he intended, the former a mildly mass-loaded TQWT. I can see EnABL probably having an effect on both -I imagine if it did anything, it would clean up higher-frequency issues around the terminus / vent & thereby subjectively improve the bass frequencies. Bit like adding a supertweeter appears to clean up everything below it.
I can't see any good reason not to experiment with it on the vents of my MLTLs. Equally, I can't honestly say I believe it will do anything on cabinets of this type, but I'm perfectly willing to be proven wrong. Wouldn't be the first time & it'll be interesting to find out.