Hi Kevin.
Like Bill I am using a diy linear tracker though of a very different design. I don't think either of us will ever be going back to a pivoted design. Although I have not heard the souther I've seen many more good reports than bad. A great couple of arms you've scored.
It is possible that the noise that you are hearing on the lead out groove is not actually the bearing. When the cutting lathe cuts the lead out the feed screw that moves the cutting head is run at high speed. This produces more noise than during normal cutting. Some of this noise is inevitably transferred to the cutting head. What you may be hearing is this noise that is cut into the lead out groove. If the resolution of the souther is greater than your previous arm it would explain why you have not heard it before. You will notice that the lead out of some records are quieter than others and that the timbre of the noise is different. Different cutting lathes. The lathes also fast advance between tracks to give the visible spaces for queuing.
If you're looking for good bearings I would recommend silicon nitride hybrid. I've experimented with a couple of different bearings and these seem to be the lowest friction and best sounding. I bought mine from Boca, they're not the cheapest but are of exemplary quality.
Hope this helps.
Niffy
Cartridge choice
One bit I forgot....
Ortofon Cadenza all the way. If you want accuracy and neutrality you won't find anything to compete at anywhere near the price. If you want a cuddly romanticize version of your music then they're not for you. If you want what's actually in the groove.... The higher up the range the better they get. The bronze is probably the pinnacle of value for money but the black is better, probably the best I've ever heard.
Niffy
One bit I forgot....
Ortofon Cadenza all the way. If you want accuracy and neutrality you won't find anything to compete at anywhere near the price. If you want a cuddly romanticize version of your music then they're not for you. If you want what's actually in the groove.... The higher up the range the better they get. The bronze is probably the pinnacle of value for money but the black is better, probably the best I've ever heard.
Niffy
I have a Schick and SPU A95 on the other table for comparison and the sorts of noises I am reporting are not audible - otherwise there is not a lot of difference performance wise except that the Schick/SPU cost me over $5K and the Tri-Quartz and Benz cost me nothing.
Playback with the Schick/A95 has a substantially lower noise floor, and offers at least as good resolution if not the quite presence and imaging of the Souther. It's a more restrained and differently tonally colored presentation than the Souther/Benz combination.
I like many things the Souther does better, but it is clearly much noisier, in some cases unacceptably noisier - it is not unlikely that part of this is the result of decades of wear and tear on this arm, tracks and bearings are nowhere as nice as the ones on the unused SLA-3. It may in fact turn out to be a lost cause, but has served its purpose to whet my appetite.
I'm a resolution freak and a fan of Ortofon LOMC cartridges and am very familiar with the SPU line, the Windfeld and Cadenza product lines so my inclination is to go for a Cadenza for the SLA-3. I am less sure now than I was about "upgrading" the other 124, however everything is reversible so I will see what comes of it when the other bits and pieces get here. I could even just put the SLA-3 on the current table, everything would bolt right on.
Playback with the Schick/A95 has a substantially lower noise floor, and offers at least as good resolution if not the quite presence and imaging of the Souther. It's a more restrained and differently tonally colored presentation than the Souther/Benz combination.
I like many things the Souther does better, but it is clearly much noisier, in some cases unacceptably noisier - it is not unlikely that part of this is the result of decades of wear and tear on this arm, tracks and bearings are nowhere as nice as the ones on the unused SLA-3. It may in fact turn out to be a lost cause, but has served its purpose to whet my appetite.
I'm a resolution freak and a fan of Ortofon LOMC cartridges and am very familiar with the SPU line, the Windfeld and Cadenza product lines so my inclination is to go for a Cadenza for the SLA-3. I am less sure now than I was about "upgrading" the other 124, however everything is reversible so I will see what comes of it when the other bits and pieces get here. I could even just put the SLA-3 on the current table, everything would bolt right on.
Snapped a few pictures of the bearings used which I will share here..
The dimensions I measured are as follows, and I was careful, but as always I might be off a few mils.
The race excluding flange has an O.D. of 0.250"
With Flange 0.296"
The race outer race is 0.110"wide
The inner race is 0.140" wide
The I.D. of the inner race is 0.1245"
These are flanged bearings obviously.
There is a significant difference between the performance of these bearings and the ones on the unused SLA-3. The Quartz rods are scrupulously clean now and get a regular wipe down with distilled water on a swab. The bearings have received the same treatment on a regular basis as well and while it has helped I still believe that new bearings would be a worthwhile investment.
I will also confess to doing something that is completely not recommended, but given the condition of this arm it is a complete don't care as far as I am concerned. I applied an absolutely minute quantity of telfon containing silicone oil to the exterior of the inner race right at the dust shield, and this seems to have quieted the bearings down slightly without a discernible increase in bearing drag - seems the reverse from unscientific experiment performed. Souther recommended washing these bearings in detergent and water and I can't help but wonder if there is not some internal corrosion as a result and don't know what sort of water they were washed in or whether they were baked. I would use only distilled water and detergent for cleaning, tap water I would think might leave deposits behind and this is something else that could have happened. My strategy is just a strategic wipe on the outer race surfaces.
The dimensions I measured are as follows, and I was careful, but as always I might be off a few mils.
The race excluding flange has an O.D. of 0.250"
With Flange 0.296"
The race outer race is 0.110"wide
The inner race is 0.140" wide
The I.D. of the inner race is 0.1245"
These are flanged bearings obviously.
There is a significant difference between the performance of these bearings and the ones on the unused SLA-3. The Quartz rods are scrupulously clean now and get a regular wipe down with distilled water on a swab. The bearings have received the same treatment on a regular basis as well and while it has helped I still believe that new bearings would be a worthwhile investment.
I will also confess to doing something that is completely not recommended, but given the condition of this arm it is a complete don't care as far as I am concerned. I applied an absolutely minute quantity of telfon containing silicone oil to the exterior of the inner race right at the dust shield, and this seems to have quieted the bearings down slightly without a discernible increase in bearing drag - seems the reverse from unscientific experiment performed. Souther recommended washing these bearings in detergent and water and I can't help but wonder if there is not some internal corrosion as a result and don't know what sort of water they were washed in or whether they were baked. I would use only distilled water and detergent for cleaning, tap water I would think might leave deposits behind and this is something else that could have happened. My strategy is just a strategic wipe on the outer race surfaces.
Attachments
Was looking at whether or not I could install the SLA-3 on the other table without removing the Schick. It appears to be possible if I position the arm in the vertical position while the Schick is in use, but it still seems like a better idea to just move it to the 401 when the new plinth gets here.
I also need to get one of the Tri-Quartz upgrades if there is any possibility as the profile of the height adjuster/support at spindle end is incorrect for a flat spindle top.
If I use the other option or supporting the arm I can ignore this issue.
I also need to get one of the Tri-Quartz upgrades if there is any possibility as the profile of the height adjuster/support at spindle end is incorrect for a flat spindle top.
If I use the other option or supporting the arm I can ignore this issue.
Attachments
Bearings
Hi Kevin,
Attached, please find drawings and specifications for the above bearing.
They are available from McMaster-Carr for around $ 7 to 8.
Sincerely,
Ralf
Hi Kevin,
Attached, please find drawings and specifications for the above bearing.
They are available from McMaster-Carr for around $ 7 to 8.
Sincerely,
Ralf
Hi Ralf,
Thanks for the help! I will check these out.
Edit: I just ordered a half dozen which is one set for the Tri-Quartz and a set of spares. Lubricating the old bearings made for a marked improvement in their performance so my suspicion is that the previous owner washed the lube out of these bearings. I'll hold on to the originals.
Thanks for the help! I will check these out.
Edit: I just ordered a half dozen which is one set for the Tri-Quartz and a set of spares. Lubricating the old bearings made for a marked improvement in their performance so my suspicion is that the previous owner washed the lube out of these bearings. I'll hold on to the originals.
The bearings you ordered from McMaster-Carr are oil filled which are not desirable. You should clean them once you got. The bearings should be dry bearings. You may also try to use professional double side tape from Home Depot to warp around both ends of the glass rods to reduce noise. I would suggest to cover the glass rod as much as you can. If I were you, I would change the wand from metal one to carbon fiber one to reduce the noise. However, if you reach that point, you are almost going to completely change the tonearm. Personally, I don't like the construction to begin with.
I plan to experiment with the bearings so doing as you suggest is viable. I can always put the old ones back in, they are satisfactory after obsessive cleaning.
Damping the end of the rods is an interesting idea which I can experiment with.
I can make arm wands here and was already considering the idea. I have 4 currently.
It's a pretty fiddly arm to set up, and some caution is required in use, but it does sound pretty good. Perhaps not ideal in some respects, but far better than you probably suspect. Have you heard one that is working properly? I was more than a little surprised.
Damping the end of the rods is an interesting idea which I can experiment with.
I can make arm wands here and was already considering the idea. I have 4 currently.
It's a pretty fiddly arm to set up, and some caution is required in use, but it does sound pretty good. Perhaps not ideal in some respects, but far better than you probably suspect. Have you heard one that is working properly? I was more than a little surprised.
I have never heard one at all and have built many different versions of ball bearing arms. I prefer Clear Audio's ball bearing arm although it is far from ideal. The pivot of Clear Audio's arm can still shift, but under the optimal combination of carriage mass, cartridge compliance, bearing friction and weight distribution, its pivot point is relatively stable. For the Souther arm, the flanged ball bearings are noise maker when the flanges hit the glass rod. It also creates resistant force. I finally gave up ball bearing arms since I don't like any existing ball bearing arm's constructions. I have my own idea. However, it is only an idea. I don't know if the idea works without actually building one. One day, I may try to build one but I don't know when because I keep updating my air bearing arms. I can say with great confidence that one of two my diy air bearing arms can rival the best arms on the market. I am still trying to improve another one. However, I don't mean a ball bearing arm can't sound better a pivot arm.
If you use carbon fiber wand, I may suggest to seal one end of carbon fiber tube and to fill inside with Gorilla Glue. Gorilla Glue will expand three times once it dry. It can make the arm wand even stiffer and effectively damp the tube. You may use Great Stuff insulating foam sealant, too. For me, Gorilla Glue works better.
If you use carbon fiber wand, I may suggest to seal one end of carbon fiber tube and to fill inside with Gorilla Glue. Gorilla Glue will expand three times once it dry. It can make the arm wand even stiffer and effectively damp the tube. You may use Great Stuff insulating foam sealant, too. For me, Gorilla Glue works better.
Hi,
Just in case you haven't seen this link to a discussion on the Souther arm.
Souther linear arm | Audiokarma Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums
I plan on trying micro glass beads to dampen the hollow arm wand. I don't have the tri-Quartz but I will use a micro glass bead filled tube in place of the third Quartz rod. It seems any resonances on the rail plate should be tamed. I'd also experiment with using new dampening materials used between the rail plate and end caps. The original material seems to be some type of foam which is probably old and tired after 30 years.
Regards,
David
Just in case you haven't seen this link to a discussion on the Souther arm.
Souther linear arm | Audiokarma Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums
I plan on trying micro glass beads to dampen the hollow arm wand. I don't have the tri-Quartz but I will use a micro glass bead filled tube in place of the third Quartz rod. It seems any resonances on the rail plate should be tamed. I'd also experiment with using new dampening materials used between the rail plate and end caps. The original material seems to be some type of foam which is probably old and tired after 30 years.
Regards,
David
There was an option to prevent doing just that, I didn't have room to install it on this TT, but will install it on the other table with the SLA-3 arm. I expect not coupling bearing noise into the arm would be a benefit, fortunately both of my 124s have fresh main bearings that run very quietly. While I am not aware of any obvious deficit, it does not mean it is not there, and I will only know by its absence.
Despite its flaws and quirks it does sound quite good when not misbehaving which sadly can occur after a few days of disuse prior to which the arm functioned perfectly. Can never take for granted that it will work correctly when you go to use it. One of the three bearings on the carriage was seized yesterday when I went to use the arm, I fixed that but they are living on borrowed time. I definitely need the ball bearings that are on the way.
Sadly I don't think I can expect much assistance beyond the great input I have received here, and will be making any replacement parts as needed myself in the future.
This may just be short term diversion, not selling the Schick or most of my collection of SPUs - they'll be waiting in the wings until installed on the 401 or back on one of the 124s. Possibly the very worn Tri-Quartz will be retired and replaced with the SLA-3 with some modifications. I won't be buying any more or recommending them or their successors to my friends. (I won't recommend anything for which there are no spare parts or even the most cursory sort of support.)
Edit: Missed the comment on the carbon fiber arm wand, very interesting and something I can experiment with a bit down the line.
Despite its flaws and quirks it does sound quite good when not misbehaving which sadly can occur after a few days of disuse prior to which the arm functioned perfectly. Can never take for granted that it will work correctly when you go to use it. One of the three bearings on the carriage was seized yesterday when I went to use the arm, I fixed that but they are living on borrowed time. I definitely need the ball bearings that are on the way.
Sadly I don't think I can expect much assistance beyond the great input I have received here, and will be making any replacement parts as needed myself in the future.
This may just be short term diversion, not selling the Schick or most of my collection of SPUs - they'll be waiting in the wings until installed on the 401 or back on one of the 124s. Possibly the very worn Tri-Quartz will be retired and replaced with the SLA-3 with some modifications. I won't be buying any more or recommending them or their successors to my friends. (I won't recommend anything for which there are no spare parts or even the most cursory sort of support.)
Edit: Missed the comment on the carbon fiber arm wand, very interesting and something I can experiment with a bit down the line.
Indeed I have read some of that discussion but will have a further look.
I have noticed that there are suppliers for suitable quartz rod and was thinking of getting some for upgrading the SLA-3 to quasi Tri-Quartz status. There is a minimum quantity, but spread across one or two other people it's in the range I would consider viable. I assume some sort of glass cutter for glass rod would work to cut it.
I would be very interested in your experiments with the damping materials on the ends of the rail plate and end caps, this might be partly why mine is singing a bit on the lead out.
I have both hollow and solid arm wands, I am using a solid one. One of the hollow wands came with a small dia rod that can be inserted as desired. I have a small collection that came with the Tri-Quartz and the SLA-3 which included an optional one with brass rod. I am told the hollow ones are not great, but I suspect would work best with high compliance, low mass MM cartridges, except that the carriage and bearings still impose a lot of drag.
Kevinkr,
What sound or detail difference do you hear with a Tangential Tracking arm. Is it distortion on the inner tracks, better imaging, better definition. Maybe my old ears aren't good enough to hear it on my system. I do know what just a bit of fuzz on a line contact sounds like. With a clean surface and stylus I don't hear distortion, sibilants, or any miss tracking 98% of the time. I do admire your diligence to improve, and correct these problems, and your common sense approach.
What sound or detail difference do you hear with a Tangential Tracking arm. Is it distortion on the inner tracks, better imaging, better definition. Maybe my old ears aren't good enough to hear it on my system. I do know what just a bit of fuzz on a line contact sounds like. With a clean surface and stylus I don't hear distortion, sibilants, or any miss tracking 98% of the time. I do admire your diligence to improve, and correct these problems, and your common sense approach.
Hi Freddymac,
Interesting question, in some regards it is possibly that it just sounds different from the Schick/A95 combo on the somewhat better 124.
There are some areas where it seems to excel, but hard to separate that from cartridge attributes. Overall it images better and produces a considerably deeper sound stage (sorry audiophile speak.) Reproduction is slightly cleaner sounding and this is most pronounced on the inner grooves where it seems to have a significant advantage over the other arm.
Interesting question, in some regards it is possibly that it just sounds different from the Schick/A95 combo on the somewhat better 124.
There are some areas where it seems to excel, but hard to separate that from cartridge attributes. Overall it images better and produces a considerably deeper sound stage (sorry audiophile speak.) Reproduction is slightly cleaner sounding and this is most pronounced on the inner grooves where it seems to have a significant advantage over the other arm.
I installed a set of the McMaster Carr bearings on the Tri-Quartz tonight. I can confirm that the lubricated bearings work and probably also impose more drag than desirable as compared to a good set of unlubricated bearings, but they seem no worse than the ones I removed, and run much more smoothly and quietly.
I briefly contemplated trying to get the lubricating oil out of the new bearings, but uncertain of the outcome I decided not to experiment.
In a short listen things sound different. Things seem a bit tighter over all and a little less ethereal. (lol) Bass is tighter, and the highs seem a little more extended. Overall a bit more coherent, possibly less exciting, considerably less noise overall. Stage depth remains and is surprising. It's brighter, and perhaps not so beguiling.
I had the arm entirely apart and cleaned the track, rod and carriage, installed new bushings, and also realized that the knurled thumbscrews securing the rail plate had been grossly over tightened at some point and like some the other set screws should be replaced.
When I originally set the arm up I think I set the cartridge a bit too far forward relative to the ideal. I've set it precisely where the alignment tool indicates it ought to be, that has brought the counter weight in quite a bit. Tracking force is 2gms which is the middle of the range for this vintage Ebony H.
I'm not sure what I think at the moment, the system needs to warm up fully. (Yeah all tubes)
The one thing I would say is not to replace the original bearings unless they are roached. I don't think these ones would be an improvement over the originals if they weren't fairly fried.
I briefly contemplated trying to get the lubricating oil out of the new bearings, but uncertain of the outcome I decided not to experiment.
In a short listen things sound different. Things seem a bit tighter over all and a little less ethereal. (lol) Bass is tighter, and the highs seem a little more extended. Overall a bit more coherent, possibly less exciting, considerably less noise overall. Stage depth remains and is surprising. It's brighter, and perhaps not so beguiling.
I had the arm entirely apart and cleaned the track, rod and carriage, installed new bushings, and also realized that the knurled thumbscrews securing the rail plate had been grossly over tightened at some point and like some the other set screws should be replaced.
When I originally set the arm up I think I set the cartridge a bit too far forward relative to the ideal. I've set it precisely where the alignment tool indicates it ought to be, that has brought the counter weight in quite a bit. Tracking force is 2gms which is the middle of the range for this vintage Ebony H.
I'm not sure what I think at the moment, the system needs to warm up fully. (Yeah all tubes)
The one thing I would say is not to replace the original bearings unless they are roached. I don't think these ones would be an improvement over the originals if they weren't fairly fried.
I've attached a snap shot of the arm as currently configured, you can see the cartridge position relative to older shots, I've set it back at least a quarter of an inch, and according to the tool it is properly lined up.
I could blab on about what improvements or deficits I perceive now which would be entirely subject to my bias.
I could blab on about what improvements or deficits I perceive now which would be entirely subject to my bias.
Attachments
The past few days have been a litany of disasters culminating in me dropping my freshly cooked pizza on the floor tonight (ate it anyway), turns out last night was not much better in some ways and I positioned the cartridge a bit too close to the fulcrum, but tonight I re-setup the arm and am thrilled to report it is actually substantially quieter, perhaps as much as 10dB.
So far so good. In general its sounding better. I have a couple of problematic damaged records that sometimes skip, tonight it played all the way through with just a pop at the right spot.
I think I've got the hang of this cantankerous old arm.
Say what you will but there is a pronounced difference on the inner grooves that is really hard to miss.
So far so good. In general its sounding better. I have a couple of problematic damaged records that sometimes skip, tonight it played all the way through with just a pop at the right spot.
I think I've got the hang of this cantankerous old arm.
Say what you will but there is a pronounced difference on the inner grooves that is really hard to miss.
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