@Nigel
On sa different note, I have recently acquired a neat set of Philips Black Tulip electronics, namely 22AH180 digital synthesizer tuber, 22AH280 preamp and 22AH370 power amp. This is the smaller of the two power amps, model 22AH380 would have been preferred, it has 100W per side rather than 60W as mine has.
On the other hand, finding and buying those 1979-1982 electronics in such excellent condition, at the royal price of just €250 (app. US$ 325, Lstg. 210), is a gift from heaven, if you like vintage. Especially so since it appears my set is among the last ones made judging from dates stamped on them.
My obviouis next move was to refresh the lot. A friend was so excited he donated two Nichicon Gold Tune 12,000 uF/71V caps to the project, which of course replaced the original 10,000uF/63V caps in the power amp.
Anyway, the instant I saw how the preamp was made, my single thought was - where's Nige to see this. It is a fully complementary design, and it does what Nige and I agree on, a full two stage push-pull output, capable of unusually high currents for a preamp output stage. Literally a mini power amplifier, and at +/- 38V, all you really need to do is increase the size of the driver and the output transistor and you have a nice 50 Wrms power amp.
Being a Philips, from whom one does not usually expect this level of products, not because they can't do it but because they don't do High End, this is full of oddities. As far as I can see, the tuner is a varicap diode equivalent of a six gang, two Dual Gate MOSFET front end with specs to match, the preamp uses Noble pots everywhere, power amp uses what seems to be a high density (judging from the weight) fully enclosed toroidal transformer, and so forth.
So I now have a third fully functional, mostly one manufacturer system, beside the Marantz and the Harman/Kardon Citation systems. As a matter of fact, I'm running out of storage space, BUT I will be gaining a room in the next month or so, as my son will be moving out to live on his own, so I get back the room I lived in 1961-1983, my entire youth.
On sa different note, I have recently acquired a neat set of Philips Black Tulip electronics, namely 22AH180 digital synthesizer tuber, 22AH280 preamp and 22AH370 power amp. This is the smaller of the two power amps, model 22AH380 would have been preferred, it has 100W per side rather than 60W as mine has.
On the other hand, finding and buying those 1979-1982 electronics in such excellent condition, at the royal price of just €250 (app. US$ 325, Lstg. 210), is a gift from heaven, if you like vintage. Especially so since it appears my set is among the last ones made judging from dates stamped on them.
My obviouis next move was to refresh the lot. A friend was so excited he donated two Nichicon Gold Tune 12,000 uF/71V caps to the project, which of course replaced the original 10,000uF/63V caps in the power amp.
Anyway, the instant I saw how the preamp was made, my single thought was - where's Nige to see this. It is a fully complementary design, and it does what Nige and I agree on, a full two stage push-pull output, capable of unusually high currents for a preamp output stage. Literally a mini power amplifier, and at +/- 38V, all you really need to do is increase the size of the driver and the output transistor and you have a nice 50 Wrms power amp.
Being a Philips, from whom one does not usually expect this level of products, not because they can't do it but because they don't do High End, this is full of oddities. As far as I can see, the tuner is a varicap diode equivalent of a six gang, two Dual Gate MOSFET front end with specs to match, the preamp uses Noble pots everywhere, power amp uses what seems to be a high density (judging from the weight) fully enclosed toroidal transformer, and so forth.
So I now have a third fully functional, mostly one manufacturer system, beside the Marantz and the Harman/Kardon Citation systems. As a matter of fact, I'm running out of storage space, BUT I will be gaining a room in the next month or so, as my son will be moving out to live on his own, so I get back the room I lived in 1961-1983, my entire youth.
Last edited:
Funny you should say that . John who will lend me the crossover said in the 1980's Tannoys on open frames were used as mids + tops . The bass from W boxes .
Why I listened like that was to get an impression the drive unit without any baffle coloration . The moments of excellence were brief . Out of the room there was a hint of what might be possible . John picked upon something . These speakers are intended to work with a cheap horn tweeter . His view is that the roll off although starting at 1 kHz will be gradual and pleasant . He says if you look carefully the paper is designed to allow the centre section extra movement to allow this . He also said cheap speakers like this always fail to meet in the middle .
A piece of advice anyone . 4 ft x 2 ft wood . Optimum location of a 15 inch driver ? My head says half way , my eyes say 1/3 up ( other designs ) . I am using MDF + Ply as it suits my way of thinking . I suspect ply has colouration much like a violin . The MDF a suck out frequency . Hopefully the qualities cancel ? Ply looks good for the front .
I have always had a soft spot for the NAD 3020 . The idea of this design is to use the NAD to drive half of it . The bass seems to need an active crossover ( to save money , and the parts I have ) . My quest is high-end sound for pennies . If the speaker is worth it, it will get upgrades . The NAD could do the bass and my SE valves the rest . 10 watts is not much if loosing 10 into a resistor . The SE is 8 watts . I think living in the USA a great advantage . Parts Express a great company . I deliberately made my life as hard as possible by buying a unit better suited to a box .
Mid range tops . I have never liked the Lowther , they sound odd sometimes . The Fostex range are fussy . The Jordan and similar even less ( shut in ) . I have some old Wharfedale Lintons which would be better than throwing money at the problem . Better still I have some Mordaunt Short MS 20 . This was the basis of the Naim SBL . To be frank I would be mad not to go this route . MS is a Dalesford chassis like KEF B 200 , unlike KEF it will go an octave higher . Oh for some ribbons to finish it .
As bad as it will be the cheap tweeter comes next . Not least because my maths needs to catch up . Think more than twice , cut once .
John said that the speakers his company designed by ear in the distant past measured badly yet sounded great . My answer was , so what . He agreed and said the average room screwed it more . My point is if you know it where is the harm ? Also it might make you tune them to a room if you had gained the knowledge of how to do it .
Variable output impedance seems a must . Hope this idea works .
Variable Amplifier Impedance
Black Tulip .
Dvv you really had to be with me the night I went to the Black Tulip launch . I said I didn't want to go . They offered to send a chopper !!! I can only think someone had said of the people you have to impress Nige is the one ( easiest ) . Although as Flat Earth as it is possible to get I am open minded . My objection to most hi fi is for reasons I don't understand it doesn't sound like humans are involved . Even Kraftwork sounds human ( very ) when right .
In the end on a dreadful near tornado evening I went . The old boy who took us looked 90 + ( I doubt less than 90 ) . I got a lot of talk about marketing and met no one who knew the first thing about electronics . Their most proud boast was a flat pack returns carton for servicing . As I did 95% of my servicing I was bemused . If you have seen the program " The Office " both Sony and Philips seem to want people like that working for them . I learned to like people like that and realized I would never take their job away and would never be asked to . Maybe that's why hi fi died ?
Apart from smoking the best Cuban cigar of my life I have not a clue what it was about .
In 1976 I dropped in on Roy Gandy of Rega in Essex ( an unknown company then ) . My new Honda CB550F DBW 222 R needed a run ( what a pile of crap it was compared to CB 500 ) . It was early August as the registration had just started . Roy insisted in a full engineering discussion and listening test . What a contrast . My first visit to Linn was equal . Ivor never said anything to me I now believe to be untrue . He also taught me to trust my instincts . Alas I see my LP12 as an OK turntable , a Garrard is better .
Dvv you really had to be with me the night I went to the Black Tulip launch . I said I didn't want to go . They offered to send a chopper !!! I can only think someone had said of the people you have to impress Nige is the one ( easiest ) . Although as Flat Earth as it is possible to get I am open minded . My objection to most hi fi is for reasons I don't understand it doesn't sound like humans are involved . Even Kraftwork sounds human ( very ) when right .
In the end on a dreadful near tornado evening I went . The old boy who took us looked 90 + ( I doubt less than 90 ) . I got a lot of talk about marketing and met no one who knew the first thing about electronics . Their most proud boast was a flat pack returns carton for servicing . As I did 95% of my servicing I was bemused . If you have seen the program " The Office " both Sony and Philips seem to want people like that working for them . I learned to like people like that and realized I would never take their job away and would never be asked to . Maybe that's why hi fi died ?
Apart from smoking the best Cuban cigar of my life I have not a clue what it was about .
In 1976 I dropped in on Roy Gandy of Rega in Essex ( an unknown company then ) . My new Honda CB550F DBW 222 R needed a run ( what a pile of crap it was compared to CB 500 ) . It was early August as the registration had just started . Roy insisted in a full engineering discussion and listening test . What a contrast . My first visit to Linn was equal . Ivor never said anything to me I now believe to be untrue . He also taught me to trust my instincts . Alas I see my LP12 as an OK turntable , a Garrard is better .
That's the heart of the problem -- most hifi sounds like, well, hifi - it's never going to fool anyone ...
And the reason is pretty simple - one's ears are far more discriminating than all the measurement obsessed people give credit for, the hearing system tunes into subtle clues that the rational mind usually doesn't "get" - and when it approves, or disapproves of the sound that's the only decision that counts ...
Personally, it's all about the low level distortion that most systems produce, the crappy sound one generally hears when you have your ear too close to a tweeter working at a decent volume. One's hearing system won't pretend that this doesn't matter - it says, this is not good enough, that sound is fake, it's just mechanical reproduction ...
On Black Tulip.
I cannot prove it, but I have a strong suspicion that the OEM for that series was Hitachi. It's an obvious Japanese manufacturing job, most of the transistors and ICs are by Hitachi, and most important, most of the critical parts are from Hitachi.
No idea who actually designed it, but I think that even if it was Hitachi, there was astrong influence of Philips, as some circuits are typical of Philips.
It sounds a little brash and in-yer-face, but that's eaxctly what my trusted AR94s need, as they are somewhat subdued.
While lovely, that set can't threaten the Citation units (preamp 22, amp 24). H/K amps usually have an attitude, but this combo excells in as good a neutrality as I've ever heard. The 22 preamp is also a fully complementary job, very well built, ALPS Black Beauty and all. No savings in sight.
I cannot prove it, but I have a strong suspicion that the OEM for that series was Hitachi. It's an obvious Japanese manufacturing job, most of the transistors and ICs are by Hitachi, and most important, most of the critical parts are from Hitachi.
No idea who actually designed it, but I think that even if it was Hitachi, there was astrong influence of Philips, as some circuits are typical of Philips.
It sounds a little brash and in-yer-face, but that's eaxctly what my trusted AR94s need, as they are somewhat subdued.
While lovely, that set can't threaten the Citation units (preamp 22, amp 24). H/K amps usually have an attitude, but this combo excells in as good a neutrality as I've ever heard. The 22 preamp is also a fully complementary job, very well built, ALPS Black Beauty and all. No savings in sight.
Black Tulip .
They claimed it was all in house and a showcase for Philips . They said they were fed up with producing solutions for other to get the credit for . It failed , Philips were more noticeable after that as a company .
The presentation was laughable . Me who is an obvious eccentric could have been more professional .
Strathern was the equal . A child's toy made into a turntable . However if I am not wrong their speakers were like Magneplanar's and came before them ? Maybe ribbons ?
They claimed it was all in house and a showcase for Philips . They said they were fed up with producing solutions for other to get the credit for . It failed , Philips were more noticeable after that as a company .
The presentation was laughable . Me who is an obvious eccentric could have been more professional .
Strathern was the equal . A child's toy made into a turntable . However if I am not wrong their speakers were like Magneplanar's and came before them ? Maybe ribbons ?
For an in-house product, these items have zero Philips components iniside, as far as I could see zero European or American components, and it's all Japanese.
Not at all likely in-house products, methinks.
However , the tape deck which came along with it, N4520, all 60 lbs of it, WAS an European product, if memory serves not a single Japanese semiconductor in sight. I had from 1981 to 1997, when I sold it off, as tapes started to be very hard to get hold of, and their prices escalated.
Not at all likely in-house products, methinks.
However , the tape deck which came along with it, N4520, all 60 lbs of it, WAS an European product, if memory serves not a single Japanese semiconductor in sight. I had from 1981 to 1997, when I sold it off, as tapes started to be very hard to get hold of, and their prices escalated.
Years ago this would be about as accurate as we could expect . No Thiele and Small . Not far from reality even now . A 95 dB unit might EQ 12 dB and give 50 Hz - 3 dB . That would be not unlike a Quad ESL 57 for output . This baffle is almost domestic size . 200 Hz turnover frequency looks about right .
I was just reading an old Dudley Harwood paper of 1975 . It says as if new information a 2 dB recessed quality between 1 and 3 kHz gives an impression of neutrality . This belief which I do not accept became common practice in the UK . Usually a crossover and tweeter phase issue to do it . The tweeter looked to be out of phase if ignoring the crossover effects . Something to consider in the mix of compromises .
Last edited:
They point is if we do what we are told not to do we can force it to work. That is use lots of EQ . We must limit the energy below the critical frequency to stop wild cone movement . Just like a box speaker we choose the lowest frequency and work from there . We then impose a 1 st or 2 nd order filter to get lets say 30 Hz to 250 Hz reasonably linear . In a real room that might even need knocking back a bit . From there upwards one could say it is a normal speaker with a rather wide baffle . That will bring problems . The graph shown I felt was rather good and realistic . Transistor amps without feedback usually start off just as unpromising . The compromise I see is this will be a domestic speaker of slightly above domestic size . Maximum loudness will be Mangeplanar level at a guess . 100 dB ?
Nige, I must be dense because even after this explanation, I still fail to see the point. What do OB systems offer that classic bass reflex or infinite baffle systems do not?
What do they do better to warrant the time and trouble?
I have no back thoughts about large bass cone drivers, in fact I believe if you want a big sound, you need a big speaker, that part I get. But with an "above average" say BR box, and a say 15" bass driver, you should be able to hit like 30 Hz at the bottom and still stay reasonably linear.
What do they do better to warrant the time and trouble?
I have no back thoughts about large bass cone drivers, in fact I believe if you want a big sound, you need a big speaker, that part I get. But with an "above average" say BR box, and a say 15" bass driver, you should be able to hit like 30 Hz at the bottom and still stay reasonably linear.
Well, yes, among others. I have seen not too different graphs elsewhere in addition to those here, and they cannot fail to look scary. Kind of, 50-20,000 Hz +/- 15 dB.
I agree that specs and measurements do not tell the whole story, but nevertheless, too scary for my taste. Besides, I still fail to see the attraction, what do they do so wellthat it puts them above other types of loudspeakers, aside from doing away with Thiele & Small?
As I said above, I am by no means trying to put you guys off or anything, I simply do not see what do I gain with OB.
It's OB DVV, Opium Bounce .........
Three Dog Night, way back in the Rockin' Seventies:
"Mamma told me not to come,
This ain't no way to have fun, ..."
The 50's stuff . It shows how the drive unit interacted with the baffle , 250 Hz such out . No big deal . I have seen these traits in real graphs rather than simulations . Think I have just bought my Eminence 12 inch mids ( advice I received , thanks , £45 ) . £95 spent so far .
Here is me vexing the " in the box people " . I seem to be pretending a bit . Please forgive . I do say defining the problem . Caruso effect I call it . Honestly told if wondering .
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/93055-celestion-66-needs-mid-range-20.html#post3575162
Dvv . Why do it ? So as to tell the truth . That is no slur on others as they may be better than me at understanding from data . I often understand the numbers only when I try to make something . Also Colleen is not having the Maggie's . Give women stuff like that and usually it is the kiss of death to the relationship ( a car for certain ) . A pair of baffles will be like Scheherazade , a never ending story .
Colleen said something . As there is no box she is less upset over the size . Maggie's give her goose bumps ! 4 x 2 foot with 12 + 15 inch drivers . How lucky is she ? Ribbon tweeters are planned ( Manticore ? £20 96 dB ) .
Do I dare risk U frame loading ? Also my wood working needs to be better . I tried to get my boss interested . His degree is in design . No good .
Topsey Turvey OB !!! OB = free range ?
To tell the truth, you say?
Given all the theory and practice regarding "proper" enclosures, I wonder how much is an OB capable of truth telling, what with all those rises and falls of the frequency response and presumably power bandwidth.
Remember the ack-ack fire I got for even mentioning loudness and tone controls? I do not see how is this any different, as least not from the graphs supplied here a few posts ago.
If it's plain, old curiosity, that's just fine, I get that. You want to see what happens in vivo, no better way. But if it's a serious attempt at an unusual loudspeaker, I am more than doubtful.
Given all the theory and practice regarding "proper" enclosures, I wonder how much is an OB capable of truth telling, what with all those rises and falls of the frequency response and presumably power bandwidth.
Remember the ack-ack fire I got for even mentioning loudness and tone controls? I do not see how is this any different, as least not from the graphs supplied here a few posts ago.
If it's plain, old curiosity, that's just fine, I get that. You want to see what happens in vivo, no better way. But if it's a serious attempt at an unusual loudspeaker, I am more than doubtful.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.