Hehehe.
So what's the "big rig"? I see a number of photos at Photobucket, but nothing titled "big rig."
se
The big Altec 210 cabinets seen in the A4's and A7's pic combined with the A7 as a 3 way.
The others are the Altec 1233, the dual 15" party, the 4X12 party and the flying V. All together I would hesitate a guess. Come on over let's hook 'em up, I'm in a festive mood. 🙂
The others are the Altec 1233, the dual 15" party, the 4X12 party and the flying V. All together I would hesitate a guess. Come on over let's hook 'em up, I'm in a festive mood. 🙂
I'll agree with the whole marketing gimmickry--we DO buy what we're TOLD to buy, but I'll disagree with the more watts is what we want and need because of less efficient speakers argument. I use my Krells (very conservatively rated at 250 w/each) to drive very accurate (but inefficient and difficult) Infinity speakers. Most newer speakers are much more efficient and certainly easier to drive.
Watts are not watts and they're certainly not what they used to be... I'll put my 250 w Class A Krell up against any conventional, mass-marketed 500 w amp. It's all too often that I find a vintage 50 wpc receiver or integrated amp that will absolutely crush a new 250 wpc X 7 channel home theater receiver/system. Putting in the minimum cost/components to gain the maximum (allowable by standard convention) power output rating (for advertising purposes) has muddied the waters so much that it's nearly impossible to get an accurate assessment of the true capabilities of any amplifier without auditioning each one. Example--look at any lower or mid-line receiver or amplifier and try to find the 4 or 2 ohm power ratings (oops, they don't have one)--for a reason!
As for speakers--power ratings are virtually irrelevant. We all know that it's far easier to damage ANY speaker with too little rather than too much power. Good components make a good speaker, cheap components make a cheap speaker. A clipped signal is a clipped signal, and will damage drivers--regardless of their power rating. A speaker rated at 200 w is far less likely to be damaged by a 500 w amplifier than a 50 w amplifier driven to clipping.
I'm not so sure that the issue is that we're being told WHAT TO BUY, but rather, we're be told WHAT WE'RE BUYING--without any real basis for comparison other than our own two ears.
Don't get me wrong, there are still some great speakers and amplifiers being built, but your brand new 1000 w all-in-one home theater set-up you just bought at WalMart WILL be outperformed by a 30 year-old 100 wpc receiver.
Best Regards and Merry Christmas
Watts are not watts and they're certainly not what they used to be... I'll put my 250 w Class A Krell up against any conventional, mass-marketed 500 w amp. It's all too often that I find a vintage 50 wpc receiver or integrated amp that will absolutely crush a new 250 wpc X 7 channel home theater receiver/system. Putting in the minimum cost/components to gain the maximum (allowable by standard convention) power output rating (for advertising purposes) has muddied the waters so much that it's nearly impossible to get an accurate assessment of the true capabilities of any amplifier without auditioning each one. Example--look at any lower or mid-line receiver or amplifier and try to find the 4 or 2 ohm power ratings (oops, they don't have one)--for a reason!
As for speakers--power ratings are virtually irrelevant. We all know that it's far easier to damage ANY speaker with too little rather than too much power. Good components make a good speaker, cheap components make a cheap speaker. A clipped signal is a clipped signal, and will damage drivers--regardless of their power rating. A speaker rated at 200 w is far less likely to be damaged by a 500 w amplifier than a 50 w amplifier driven to clipping.
I'm not so sure that the issue is that we're being told WHAT TO BUY, but rather, we're be told WHAT WE'RE BUYING--without any real basis for comparison other than our own two ears.
Don't get me wrong, there are still some great speakers and amplifiers being built, but your brand new 1000 w all-in-one home theater set-up you just bought at WalMart WILL be outperformed by a 30 year-old 100 wpc receiver.
Best Regards and Merry Christmas
I don't think there are many 'regulars' here that take those type of HTRs power ratings seriously.
I have a pair of fairly efficient 3-ways that are actively driven. The amp that drives them has 6 channels, more than 100watts per channel, or 300 watts per speaker. These never clip.
I also have a sub with 2 18" drivers but low efficiency, driven by a single channel amp capable of more than 750 watts. This I have clipped, with some movie soundtracks. Room for improvement...
IMO we need a min of 10 preferable 20 times the rms power being used for "realism" so if your speaker consumes 10 watts rms you will need at least a 100 watt amp even if you have 96db/w/m speakers.
Also the efficiency numbers being thrown around here can be very misleading, some are anechoic others are not, there is a big difference, if anechoic there is additional room gain to be had , not to mention point source vs Line source (panel speakers) speaker impedance and polar response.
regards,
Also the efficiency numbers being thrown around here can be very misleading, some are anechoic others are not, there is a big difference, if anechoic there is additional room gain to be had , not to mention point source vs Line source (panel speakers) speaker impedance and polar response.
regards,
Ah, ok.
How far down are you able to achieve 105dB?
I'd love to.
You paying the airfare? 😀
se
Interesting points folks..... and this makes sense to me
Thank you A wayne and others...nice contribution, i will make a revision in my thougths about.
The last amplifier model i have made is 100/200 watts RMS, in the reality it is can "pump" out much more than that, i am glad, despite i had not the belief all that power was needed, that i have made the correct choice... as you said all this power is needed...so....now i am in peace with my conscience.
I thought, because home tests, with my poor speakers (but efficient) that all this power was not needed...so... as a consequence, i had some troubles inside my own conscience...because i my thougths i was inducing, pushing, convincing,persuading and suggesting, to some friends, to spend more bucks than needed, buying huge transformers, massive capacitances, big heatsinks, expensive things and so on.... now i am feeling much better, as several folks understand this stuff different that me...i will be thinking about to digest all that stuff i'm reading.
Here the last unit... a group buy was made.... 44 units sold, 32 to foreign countries and 12 to brasil, two different group buys was opened...one in brasil and other in our diyaudio forum...for a while the group buy is collecting candidates to a second round.
The purchasing group, or group buy, is not dead, it is just hibernating
... if it receives enough orders, in the next year can revive and restart activities.
regards,
Carlos
Thank you A wayne and others...nice contribution, i will make a revision in my thougths about.
The last amplifier model i have made is 100/200 watts RMS, in the reality it is can "pump" out much more than that, i am glad, despite i had not the belief all that power was needed, that i have made the correct choice... as you said all this power is needed...so....now i am in peace with my conscience.
I thought, because home tests, with my poor speakers (but efficient) that all this power was not needed...so... as a consequence, i had some troubles inside my own conscience...because i my thougths i was inducing, pushing, convincing,persuading and suggesting, to some friends, to spend more bucks than needed, buying huge transformers, massive capacitances, big heatsinks, expensive things and so on.... now i am feeling much better, as several folks understand this stuff different that me...i will be thinking about to digest all that stuff i'm reading.
Here the last unit... a group buy was made.... 44 units sold, 32 to foreign countries and 12 to brasil, two different group buys was opened...one in brasil and other in our diyaudio forum...for a while the group buy is collecting candidates to a second round.
The purchasing group, or group buy, is not dead, it is just hibernating
... if it receives enough orders, in the next year can revive and restart activities.
regards,
Carlos
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I'll have to dig up the link and post it, but I'm sure it's already on this forum somewhere--it's part of the Bob Carver story--about using huge amounts of power to reproduce the sound of a scissor "snip" at a "normal" levels, and the realization that even with all of the amps employed and their huge power reserve, the waveform was ultimately clipped due to a lack of sufficient power reserve to reproduce the momentary peak created in the original sound. This is the basis of an opinion that I (and many others) share--a large amount of power reserve is necessary to accurately reproduce the momentary peaks encountered in "normal" sounds. This does not mean that a 1000 w amp is necessary, or need be driven at 100% all the time, but rather that a sufficient power reserve be available well beyond the "average" listening range to accurately reproduce these momentary peaks of the program material and to account for variations in speaker performance (efficiency, impedence, etc.) across the entire frequency bandwidth.
I've noted a couple of recent posts with reference to pro equipment with some high efficiency ratings. For live sound work, I too employ various speaker cabinets (Peavey, EAV, EV, CV) with efficiency ratings of > 100 db--covering the full range audio spectrum (although I usually engage a 40 Hz cutoff). In these applications, I am drivng multiples of these cabinets with thousands of watts to account for volumetric considerations of the venue. Under these conditions (outdoors or large rooms/event centers), the number of drivers becomes as critical (if not more critical) than the amount of power used or the efficiency of the drivers--a single 18" subwoofer with an efficiency of 105 db driven by a 2000 w amp is certainly not going to "thump" a room with 1000 people in it. In these situations, I need to physically move (resonate) large volumes of air, hence the need for the "stacks and racks" of speaker cabinets and amps that you see at all concert venues.
I've heard (and I may well be wrong) that the Beatles first appearance at Shea Stadium used a 50 watt amp--to me, that would be like 10 of us sitting around my dining room table and listenng to an iPod w/headphones (not speakers) lying in the middle of the table.
Thanks for your indulgence,
I've noted a couple of recent posts with reference to pro equipment with some high efficiency ratings. For live sound work, I too employ various speaker cabinets (Peavey, EAV, EV, CV) with efficiency ratings of > 100 db--covering the full range audio spectrum (although I usually engage a 40 Hz cutoff). In these applications, I am drivng multiples of these cabinets with thousands of watts to account for volumetric considerations of the venue. Under these conditions (outdoors or large rooms/event centers), the number of drivers becomes as critical (if not more critical) than the amount of power used or the efficiency of the drivers--a single 18" subwoofer with an efficiency of 105 db driven by a 2000 w amp is certainly not going to "thump" a room with 1000 people in it. In these situations, I need to physically move (resonate) large volumes of air, hence the need for the "stacks and racks" of speaker cabinets and amps that you see at all concert venues.
I've heard (and I may well be wrong) that the Beatles first appearance at Shea Stadium used a 50 watt amp--to me, that would be like 10 of us sitting around my dining room table and listenng to an iPod w/headphones (not speakers) lying in the middle of the table.
Thanks for your indulgence,
Interesting fhawk,
a few years ago my partner's youngest daughter wanted a garden party for her 21st. He asked me if I could bring an amp and speakers for use on her laptop containing her favourite music.
I had no intention of breaking down my listening system and decided that I would take my 50 w/ch amp that I use in my study on my PC with two Wharfedale Linton speakers. This does not sound all that loud in my study but It decided to try anyway.
My partners back yard is 2200 sq meters, the standard size of a garden over here. Interestingly enough the police was called three times with complaints of loud music, not by the direct neighbours because they were all at the party, but people who lived several houses away.
I must admit it was very loud in the garden, much more so that I have ever heard from this meagre set-up, I never thought that it would even make an impression on the party goers. I believe because there are no reflections and absorption as within a typical room. IMO outdoor set-up can be much louder than in a room filled with furniture, drapes and carpets.
Nico
a few years ago my partner's youngest daughter wanted a garden party for her 21st. He asked me if I could bring an amp and speakers for use on her laptop containing her favourite music.
I had no intention of breaking down my listening system and decided that I would take my 50 w/ch amp that I use in my study on my PC with two Wharfedale Linton speakers. This does not sound all that loud in my study but It decided to try anyway.
My partners back yard is 2200 sq meters, the standard size of a garden over here. Interestingly enough the police was called three times with complaints of loud music, not by the direct neighbours because they were all at the party, but people who lived several houses away.
I must admit it was very loud in the garden, much more so that I have ever heard from this meagre set-up, I never thought that it would even make an impression on the party goers. I believe because there are no reflections and absorption as within a typical room. IMO outdoor set-up can be much louder than in a room filled with furniture, drapes and carpets.
Nico
It is +10dB = 2 x perceived volume = 10x power required.
To increase volume by 3dB you need twice the power but the perceived increase in volume is slight.
That's what I was trying to say when people were talking about all these concerts being very distorted. Maybe they were but if they do that regularly on a tour they will waste a lot of equipment. I don't think too many bands do that really. You can damage the amplifiers too.
1 watt of DC will fry a speaker. Clip the signal bad enough and it becomes dc enough at some point. I blew a 15 inch EV with a .5kW power amp using a Peavey MK2 bass amp as a pre-amp one time (I was very young and dumb) and it wasn't even loud at all before it blew. Clipped like a mothertrucker though I imagine although I did not have a scope on it.
I know that what we think of as concert PA systems did not yet exist at that time. They say you couldn't hear the band at all at that show. Not over the crowd anyway. Maybe if everybody in the crowd had been REAL quiet you would have been able to.
This is wisdom. The unfortunate/wonderful part of it, depending on your disposition, is that you are going to have to try different setups until you find your happy compromise.
200wpc works for me, with my beloved though now unfashionably inefficient speakers; although almost all of the time, 100wpc would suffice.
Here's the exception that proved my rule: "Rhubarb", by Aphex Twin. It has a swelling complex synthesizer sound; perhaps a big orchestra or an organ playing a loud and swelling passage would be analogous.
I've done quite a bit of destructive testing with that one. It illustrates that the more common examples of rock & roll (hair bands, Stones, etc.) are imho not the most demanding type of music to reproduce without clipping - not even close. Rhubarb takes about twice the normal amount of wattage to make a "loud" sound, so I use it as one of my test tracks for new gear. Cheers, and thanks to all for a great thread.
Agreed--most "popular music" (pardon the broad generalization) does not have the dynamic range of more "esoteric or traditional" recordings (symphonic performances, etc.) Popular music is engineered for broadcast and typically has a very limited or compressed dynamic range; therefore any peaks are already limited within that given range. Well-recorded symphonic performances are amongst the most demanding source materials for sound reproduction due to their broad dynamic range.
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