When bi-amping , I use the same power on the top mid/twt as the bass. In actuality the midrange will use more power than your bass unit unless there respective efficiencies are very different , say a horn driver vs standard woofer.
Right again Andrew. What I meant is that your cathode/transformer output device has a rather high impedance and the output voltage across the speaker terminals would drop when more current is required, thus gain compress (like a current source). But in a low impedance tranistor amp the output voltage would remain constant even at high currents (like a voltage source). Provided the power supply is up to task.
My neigbour complains if I use my amp above 80%. At 90% it is only delivering 5.8W RMS into the B&W 683's. The amp is capable of over 200W but this is just headroom.
One of the best amps that I have ever heard was a Class A amp that was rated at 3.5W RMS. In a normal listening room it was loud enough to be enjoyable.
Try the JLH (Hiranga Monster) at 10W RMS, you will be pleasantly surprised.
One of the best amps that I have ever heard was a Class A amp that was rated at 3.5W RMS. In a normal listening room it was loud enough to be enjoyable.
Try the JLH (Hiranga Monster) at 10W RMS, you will be pleasantly surprised.
I know 10 watts is a big deal to some , I just cannot see how one can reproduce music with any kind of accuracy with such limited power ...
The Member with 105dB/W @ 1m speakers can reproduce a very wide dynamic range from a 10W amplifier.
I'm assuming you have heard it do so Andrew, Interestingly that has not been my experience , the dynamic compression and lack of realism is usually very obvious.
Note I'm not discussing loudness...
Note I'm not discussing loudness...
I've just read this thread from start to finish. Very interesting. My experience is that extra power seems to give an "effortlessness"and more "life" to the sound. My system is a three way active setup. 125W to mids / highs and 500W to subs. I once scoped this while listening to some trance at normal levels and found my total power useage to be about 10W. Which surprised me at the time but just accepted the results and thought i've created a system with a total excess of power.
Also it never sounds loud when you turn it up. That is until you want to talk and you can't even hear yourself.
Also it never sounds loud when you turn it up. That is until you want to talk and you can't even hear yourself.
We come back to all the posts about amplifier design. A good amplifier design will be able to play X Watts RMS all the time. A good design will have a significant headroom above this.
For the novices. A 10W RMS amplifier is LOUD. In order to achieve twice the volume 3dB, which is virtually indescernable by the human ear you would need 100W RMS. And so the story goes on, the human ear would be able to hear the difference in volume between a 10W RMS amp and a 1000W RMS amp.
Most speakers are rated at 1W. So at 96dB/Watt you can reproduce 96dB with a 1W RMS amp. In order to reproduce 99dB you would need 10W and 102dB would need 100W. Not many domestic speakers can handle the 1000W you would need for 105dB.
As MCD99uk said, most of the time you are only using 10W (max).
A good amplifier will have a transient peak power output maybe 12dB above its RMS value. Speakers can generally handle these transients for VERY SHORT periods of time. It is only a matter of the voice coils getting rid of the heat. Cheap speakers may fuse, ie the voice coils may just burn out, I am assuming that we are using decent quality speakers here.
How many times have you told the kids to turn down their boom-boxes. These are generally only 2W RMS.
For the novices. A 10W RMS amplifier is LOUD. In order to achieve twice the volume 3dB, which is virtually indescernable by the human ear you would need 100W RMS. And so the story goes on, the human ear would be able to hear the difference in volume between a 10W RMS amp and a 1000W RMS amp.
Most speakers are rated at 1W. So at 96dB/Watt you can reproduce 96dB with a 1W RMS amp. In order to reproduce 99dB you would need 10W and 102dB would need 100W. Not many domestic speakers can handle the 1000W you would need for 105dB.
As MCD99uk said, most of the time you are only using 10W (max).
A good amplifier will have a transient peak power output maybe 12dB above its RMS value. Speakers can generally handle these transients for VERY SHORT periods of time. It is only a matter of the voice coils getting rid of the heat. Cheap speakers may fuse, ie the voice coils may just burn out, I am assuming that we are using decent quality speakers here.
How many times have you told the kids to turn down their boom-boxes. These are generally only 2W RMS.
I can't quite follow your argument, so I'll settle for correcting the arithmetic.
As Arnulf says 3dB=double power, 10dB=10times power.
96dB/W @ 1m speakers produce:
96dB @ 1W
99dB @ 2W
102dB @ 4W
105dB @ 8W
CAUTION--New guy on board! Been scanning through this thread regarding "adequate" power to achieve "nominal" listening levels--intriguing... I am a fan of higher power solid state amps (my smallest amps are 250 w Krell monoblocs--4 to bi-amp stereo), and have both home equipment as well as a pro-audio business (racks of Crowns and Carvers well into the kw range). To me, "too loud" has always been more defined by listening fatigue, rather than SPL. Poor reproduction of any input signal (as a result of speakers, amplifiers, venue acoustics, background noise, etc.) has always been more "disturbing" that a specific measured volume level. A low-powered transistor radio can be "too loud" vs my Krells at nearly 100%. Conversely, a 10 w tube amp in a listening room can be far more "satisfying" than a poorly engineered performance at several kw.
To steal a quote from a colleague of mine--"it only matters if it sounds good to you..."
Thanks for having me and Merry Christmas (if applicable)!
To steal a quote from a colleague of mine--"it only matters if it sounds good to you..."
Thanks for having me and Merry Christmas (if applicable)!
I do think we need one watt to 2 watts each channel, if we
have a small home and efficient speakers.
But, speaker factories are reducing speaker efficiency in order to make them able to face high power amplifiers... so... some 200 watts speakers together 200 watts amplifiers plays alike an efficient 10 watts speaker together a 10 watt amplifier.
This way, amplifier factories have also perceived that they have to produce 100 or 200 watts per channel amplifiers, or people will never believe the unit can produce loud and powerfull sound....in other words, they will not buy.
So, we have what we want... what we believe... our factories and amplifiers are exactly what we manage and they follow our demands... all that stuff happens because our beliefs and prejudices.
regards,
Carlos
have a small home and efficient speakers.
But, speaker factories are reducing speaker efficiency in order to make them able to face high power amplifiers... so... some 200 watts speakers together 200 watts amplifiers plays alike an efficient 10 watts speaker together a 10 watt amplifier.
This way, amplifier factories have also perceived that they have to produce 100 or 200 watts per channel amplifiers, or people will never believe the unit can produce loud and powerfull sound....in other words, they will not buy.
So, we have what we want... what we believe... our factories and amplifiers are exactly what we manage and they follow our demands... all that stuff happens because our beliefs and prejudices.
regards,
Carlos
Well said, Carlos.
When watts became cheap, we went from low mass paper cones to high mass plastic cones and speaker sensitivities went from the mid-90's and higher to the mid-80's and lower.
se
Yes my dear Stevie Eddie... sadly we are right about the stuff
i would be more happy if i could believe the oposite... as i use to make 100 watts amplifiers and offer to my friends..when i do not believe this is a need..this increases cost, so... it is alike a penalty i am giving to them...because beliefs, prejudices and low efficient speakers.
Nelson Pass is the rigth one..he do not mind about power..he is now producing some higher power units because the same reason i am doing too..because people wants that..he knows the first watt is all we need.
regards,
Carlos
i would be more happy if i could believe the oposite... as i use to make 100 watts amplifiers and offer to my friends..when i do not believe this is a need..this increases cost, so... it is alike a penalty i am giving to them...because beliefs, prejudices and low efficient speakers.
Nelson Pass is the rigth one..he do not mind about power..he is now producing some higher power units because the same reason i am doing too..because people wants that..he knows the first watt is all we need.
regards,
Carlos
Instead of 100 watt amps, you should be making 100dB speakers. Then you can follow up with a 10 watt amp to drive them. 😀
Yes.
But the secret to good marketing isn't giving people what they already want, it's making them want what you have to sell. 😀
se
there in lies "our" problem. The uninformed buy because it's advertised as better than the one they sold three months ago. They go and buy the new version.
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