I might have posted the same thing except I can use a little less power as I like high sensitivity speakers.
Maybe we should clarify that dB increase or decrease is always the same wheter it is in volts or power.
In volts....using a reference 1 volt .. 20 log 1 = 0 dB
at 2 V 20 log 2 = 6 dB
at 5 V 20 log 5 = 13.98 dB
In power ( say into 1 ohm ) 1 volt 10 log 1^2 = 0 dB
at 2 V 10 log 2^2 = 6 dB
at 5 V 10 log 5^2 = 13.98 dB
What is different is the reference point ( or '0' dB) for the various dB's like
dBV, dBm , dBW etc.
In volts....using a reference 1 volt .. 20 log 1 = 0 dB
at 2 V 20 log 2 = 6 dB
at 5 V 20 log 5 = 13.98 dB
In power ( say into 1 ohm ) 1 volt 10 log 1^2 = 0 dB
at 2 V 10 log 2^2 = 6 dB
at 5 V 10 log 5^2 = 13.98 dB
What is different is the reference point ( or '0' dB) for the various dB's like
dBV, dBm , dBW etc.
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Dear all,
here is a simple example that all of you have experienced. Take a room with one person talking. You can hear him perfectly. Now take a room with 100 people talking and you can hear nothing except that the original person has to shout at the top of their voice to be heard. All the talkers are at different distance from you, but the sound pressure level has risen 100:1.
Now take the same scenario when one person is singing, then take the second scenario where 100 people are singing the same tune (a choir), the sound pressure level is still 100:1 but in this case the sound is coherently adds while in the previous case it is not.
The same applies to speakers. If you consider a single sine wave and a single speaker. Adding a speaker/amplifier would double the sound pressure level. Take the scenario of music playing at the same level as would the sine wave and you still double the sound pressure level, but in the second case the different sounds of the music would interact and sometime will be coherently and while other times not, now it becomes a question of the listeners position relative to speakers and to the geometric sum of the sounds.
This is where things get interesting, how much power do you need? Well this depends entirely on the type of music you listen too. If you only listen to a solo violinist playing or a soloist singing then 108 dBSPL at the listening posistion would be far to loud and you would turn the volume down to a more manageable 80 - 90 dB.
However, if you are listening to complex music, say rock, then 108 dBSPL would probably not be enough since the non-coherent addition and subtraction of the different sounds and frequencies is perceived at the listening point as much lower.
These are some of the reasons that it is so difficult to come to any conclusion with regard to how sound reproduction equipment sounds, because of the relatively long wave lengths, interference of signals, placement of the speakers and listening position all affects what you are hearing. Listening to your hi-fi system and just turning your head or moving slightly in your listening position alters the sound that you hear.
Now listening on headphones is so much different because there is not enough distance between the diaphragm and your eardrum to take effect of the adding and cancelling of different sounds since it is far less than the wavelength of even the highest note.
I would like to raise one further observation and that is of single and mutiple drivers on the same baffle. A single driver sounds so much better at the listening point than multiple drivers. If you ever have an opportunity to listen to a Tannoy dual concentric driver and compare this to a multi speaker baffle, you may agree with me. But this is another topic altogether.
here is a simple example that all of you have experienced. Take a room with one person talking. You can hear him perfectly. Now take a room with 100 people talking and you can hear nothing except that the original person has to shout at the top of their voice to be heard. All the talkers are at different distance from you, but the sound pressure level has risen 100:1.
Now take the same scenario when one person is singing, then take the second scenario where 100 people are singing the same tune (a choir), the sound pressure level is still 100:1 but in this case the sound is coherently adds while in the previous case it is not.
The same applies to speakers. If you consider a single sine wave and a single speaker. Adding a speaker/amplifier would double the sound pressure level. Take the scenario of music playing at the same level as would the sine wave and you still double the sound pressure level, but in the second case the different sounds of the music would interact and sometime will be coherently and while other times not, now it becomes a question of the listeners position relative to speakers and to the geometric sum of the sounds.
This is where things get interesting, how much power do you need? Well this depends entirely on the type of music you listen too. If you only listen to a solo violinist playing or a soloist singing then 108 dBSPL at the listening posistion would be far to loud and you would turn the volume down to a more manageable 80 - 90 dB.
However, if you are listening to complex music, say rock, then 108 dBSPL would probably not be enough since the non-coherent addition and subtraction of the different sounds and frequencies is perceived at the listening point as much lower.
These are some of the reasons that it is so difficult to come to any conclusion with regard to how sound reproduction equipment sounds, because of the relatively long wave lengths, interference of signals, placement of the speakers and listening position all affects what you are hearing. Listening to your hi-fi system and just turning your head or moving slightly in your listening position alters the sound that you hear.
Now listening on headphones is so much different because there is not enough distance between the diaphragm and your eardrum to take effect of the adding and cancelling of different sounds since it is far less than the wavelength of even the highest note.
I would like to raise one further observation and that is of single and mutiple drivers on the same baffle. A single driver sounds so much better at the listening point than multiple drivers. If you ever have an opportunity to listen to a Tannoy dual concentric driver and compare this to a multi speaker baffle, you may agree with me. But this is another topic altogether.
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I have a pair of meters on my amp, they have been calibrated to indicate +0 dB = 240 watt into my speakers using a sine wave of 1 kHz. Okay this is not the point, but what is the point is than when listening to a soloist at a realistic and comfortable volume setting hardly peaks the meters at -15 dB, while when listening to heavy rock say Budgie playing radar love at the same comfortable and realistic level peaks the meters around +3 dB and the average never drops below - 5dB.
The point is that it depends entirely on what you are listening to and how loud is confortable. I have a single ended class A amp that is capable of 8 watts before the sound falls appart completely. It produces simplistic music like chamber music and solos as loud as I can bear. But try playing rock music, it just cannot cope.
The point is that it depends entirely on what you are listening to and how loud is confortable. I have a single ended class A amp that is capable of 8 watts before the sound falls appart completely. It produces simplistic music like chamber music and solos as loud as I can bear. But try playing rock music, it just cannot cope.
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I also think that when one listens to complex music such as rock, one filters the sounds that you like, for instance bass and you turn up the volume so that you enjoy the bass punch, while the rest of the racket becomes increasingly objectional to your neighbours, it does not matter to you the listener.
I cannot imagine any neighbour that enjoys listening to someone elses music through walls while trying to watch a TV program or have a conversation or a snooze.
I cannot imagine any neighbour that enjoys listening to someone elses music through walls while trying to watch a TV program or have a conversation or a snooze.
Thanks Nico, your explanation and reasoning is good. I had never thought of it in quite those terms.
Whether you listen to solo instruments or complex music my original question was really referring to "how much amplifier power do you need"... and I can't just recall anyone actually trying my rough and ready method in post #1
Whether you listen to solo instruments or complex music my original question was really referring to "how much amplifier power do you need"... and I can't just recall anyone actually trying my rough and ready method in post #1
That's like 'how much power does your car need?' - not much, to cruise around town, to get from A to B.
Need to pass another vehicle? Can't do it, not enough power.
Feel the thrill of a burst of acceleration? Can't do it, not enough power.
Your method is fine for those who will not 'turn it up' and need limits placed upon them, lest they go wild and disturb the neighbours or their domineering wives.
🙂
I wrote this originally
"You turn the amp up to what is the loudest you would ever normally listen on a music CD."
Perhaps following Nico' observations a fairer statement would be "this depends somewhat on the type of music so choose something complex such as full orchestral finale or complex rock etc".
Also most know what the max position is that they turn the volume control to. So set it there, perhaps a few degrees more to allow a little headroom and perform the test. It puts the results in the right ballpark.
If what you listen to is test tones from a CD.
Generally speaking everybody needs the amount of amp power that is loud enough for them with the amp not turned more than halfway up. Until clipping actually which more often than not begins with the volume control around 5.
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Hi,
If what is required is the maximum output signal from the CDP, then precisely, test tones and measurement give that.
From there one can check whether the system is capable of playing quiet or loud and what limitations if any need to be put in place.
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Why ? - I often use my tube amp on full throttle, I figure I'm putting the least amount of conductive track in the path of my audio signal when I do this.
Following this reasoning my "ideal" target amplifier would be around 20 to 30 watts RMS. Once you reach that level then it takes a relatively large increase in power to get a "noticeable" increase in volume. A doubling of power gives a 3db increase which is not as noticeable as you think and certainly not twice as loud."
Mooly, your reasoning is absolutely correct, but I would like to point out that 3dB is not necessarily twice as loud. If using a measurement instrument you would be correct, but using ears is a different matter all together.
If you play around with your own ear's response to relative loudness, you may listen to a soft sound and not notice anything, if you double it. Now take a loud sound and double it, what do you perceive?
Now what you saying Mooly, if I understand you correctly. In your environment with your listening room and its peculiarities and the distance you sit from your speakers, 20 - 30 watt is sufficient to make your ears almost pain.
However, in a car where you practically sit inside the speaker box and running a 1000 watt make only make your number plate fall off but through all the interference between different frequencies, refections, etc and the ambient noise, this is just not enough.
The ambient noise and environment plays a healthy role in what you perceive as loud. Using headphones isolates your enviroment somewhat and only a few dB above your hearing threshold could make your eyes water, but would hardly make a glass shatter.
There is not an easy or straight forward answer to your question/statement. I know where you are coming from, in the seventies they rated amplifier power relative to room size. But I think the seventies was much quieter than today. The ambient noise in a typical household has shifted up a few decibels, cars, airconditioners, every kid playing a video game, neighbour using power tools, microwave oven running, PCs fans, etc. Compared to the seventies the ambient noise was such that you could hear a flea tapdancing on your dog's back.
perhaps a close approximation would be that you nead 30 watt plus 20 Log (current year - 1970)
Mooly, your reasoning is absolutely correct, but I would like to point out that 3dB is not necessarily twice as loud. If using a measurement instrument you would be correct, but using ears is a different matter all together.
If you play around with your own ear's response to relative loudness, you may listen to a soft sound and not notice anything, if you double it. Now take a loud sound and double it, what do you perceive?
Now what you saying Mooly, if I understand you correctly. In your environment with your listening room and its peculiarities and the distance you sit from your speakers, 20 - 30 watt is sufficient to make your ears almost pain.
However, in a car where you practically sit inside the speaker box and running a 1000 watt make only make your number plate fall off but through all the interference between different frequencies, refections, etc and the ambient noise, this is just not enough.
The ambient noise and environment plays a healthy role in what you perceive as loud. Using headphones isolates your enviroment somewhat and only a few dB above your hearing threshold could make your eyes water, but would hardly make a glass shatter.
There is not an easy or straight forward answer to your question/statement. I know where you are coming from, in the seventies they rated amplifier power relative to room size. But I think the seventies was much quieter than today. The ambient noise in a typical household has shifted up a few decibels, cars, airconditioners, every kid playing a video game, neighbour using power tools, microwave oven running, PCs fans, etc. Compared to the seventies the ambient noise was such that you could hear a flea tapdancing on your dog's back.
perhaps a close approximation would be that you nead 30 watt plus 20 Log (current year - 1970)
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This doesn't exist for me. I don't keep track of and chart how loud I listen to everything - I have no 'normal' listening level.
I turn it up until it is loud enough for how I want to hear it and the extra power needs to be there for that (for me).
Hi John.
I think the observation in general could be made: "how long is a spiece of string?" obviously it has to be long enough to be useful. 🙂
Nico
I think the observation in general could be made: "how long is a spiece of string?" obviously it has to be long enough to be useful. 🙂
Nico
My brother has the attitude that he turns up the juice until his eyes water then turn it a tad back. Same when tightening a bolt, turn it until you hear a crack then slacken half a turn
I must admit when I was younger I pushed until I could smell the amplifier, then back it off a little. Those days a 40 -50 watt amplifier was massive.
Today a 1000 watt almplifier seems to be the norm, what has changed? Maybe people are evolving to hear less so they can purchase bigger amps. One day we may not even have ears so how will we wear glasses?
Today a 1000 watt almplifier seems to be the norm, what has changed? Maybe people are evolving to hear less so they can purchase bigger amps. One day we may not even have ears so how will we wear glasses?
Interesting Nico that you would label rock music as complex and it would take an increase of about 10 db to "feel" twice as loud.
Very efficient speakers playing rock music can get away with 30-40 watts , very complex music with big dynamic swings will require 10 times as much..
Very efficient speakers playing rock music can get away with 30-40 watts , very complex music with big dynamic swings will require 10 times as much..
One the items in my 'End Of The World' preparedness kit is a piece of stout rope, long enough to hang oneself with.
😉
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