Smoothest Fullrange driver through the sibilance range.

[auplater]

While we are talking about drivers and how they sound over the sibilant range, let me link you to my past work for comparison. Over several years I designed and built several mass loaded transmission line speakers with small full range drivers.

I completed designs that use Mark Audio Alpair 6 and 10 versions plus the Jordan JX92S. The attached link details my Alpair 6 design and it is a sweet sounding small tower speaker but also shows a photo of the three speakers. All of these speakers use metallic drivers and have no sibilance to my ears.

Small MLTL for Mark Audio Alpair 6 Drivers

In fact this afternoon I connected the Alpair 6 MLTLs for some easy listening and they are still impressive. The Jordan JX92S with a ribbon tweeter MLTLs are still my daily TV listening speakers.

I remember you demo'd them (the Jordans) in KY way back 10 years or so ago... they did sound good, within the design constraints of power in a large room

 

[onform]

Kjf don’t stock the 6p’s anymore.

 

[Scottmoose]

That's because they're not made any more.

 

[planet10]

I have 6 almost finished being EnABLed. A really nice driver.

dave

 

[scottjoplin]

Some measurements would be nice Dave since the OP is asking what to look out for in the frequency response measurements and you are now talking about ones you have modified

 

[onform]

And some photos I quite like the simple clean looks of the standard version. Can you enable a driver a keep it looking almost stock, maybe clear coatings?

 

[planet10]

You can. It is harder to be as consistent because it is hard to see the spots, particularily as the get drier.. Bud always used clear. I try to use it sparingly.

Some schemes still given reasonable contrast on application, but the spots are close to the cone colour once set, ie orange on Mark Audio’s copper coloured cones (they call it gold, its not), grey on the siler cones, and blue on the blue paper cones.

dave

 

[scottjoplin]

Have you before and after measurements?

 

[planet10]

Yes. Differences can be seen, but as one would expect, given that we ar edealing with small pieces of information, subtle, and open to interpretation. Noy nearly as useful as actually listening to them.

dave

 

[scottjoplin]

Can we see them?

 

[planet10]

Some of the most interesting, maybe. I had a page where you could move the cursor over the chart and it would switch between before & after. I’ll see if i can find it and make it work again.

dave

 

[planet10]

1st one: JohnK waterfalls. Don’t remeber what driver but Bud did them and they would have been EnABL V1.

Enable Tests

2/ Gary Pimm

Enable Tests

Mige Pairwise tests of 4 drivers (ABCD) (can’t tell you what drivers, and the caption does not clear say which is which). URL will tell you what pair is being displayed, there is context buried in the forum somewhere, probably in the EnABL thread.

Implulse Response:
AC
AD
BC
http://www.planet10-hifi.com/bud/mige-test/IR/BD/

Spectrogram:
http://www.planet10-hifi.com/bud/mige-test/spectro/AC/
http://www.planet10-hifi.com/bud/mige-test/spectro/AD/
http://www.planet10-hifi.com/bud/mige-test/spectro/BC/
http://www.planet10-hifi.com/bud/mige-test/spectro/BD/

Waterfall:
http://www.planet10-hifi.com/bud/mige-test/waterfall/AB/
http://www.planet10-hifi.com/bud/mige-test/waterfall/AC/
http://www.planet10-hifi.com/bud/mige-test/waterfall/AD/
http://www.planet10-hifi.com/bud/mige-test/waterfall/BC/
http://www.planet10-hifi.com/bud/mige-test/waterfall/BD/
http://www.planet10-hifi.com/bud/mige-test/waterfall/CD/

Wavelets:
http://www.planet10-hifi.com/bud/mige-test/wavelet/AC/
http://www.planet10-hifi.com/bud/mige-test/wavelet/AD/
http://www.planet10-hifi.com/bud/mige-test/wavelet/BC/
http://www.planet10-hifi.com/bud/mige-test/wavelet/BD/

dave

 

[scottjoplin]

Ok, thanks Dave. There appears to be small differences in resonances, as if they are shifted a bit? I am unable to determine whether one is better that the other, and we don't know which is which in most cases, maybe it will be helpful to someone?

 

[planet10]

As i suggested, interpretation is hard. You can see differences, but what do those differences sound like? Likely a tougher issue to sort than many that still remain unresolved.

dave

 

[Joseph Crowe]

Sibilance is causes by resonances in the upper treble which can be measured by looking at various acoustical measurements. Mainly it will show up in a cumulative spectral burst decay but it will also show as anomolies in the off-axis response. A great website to how much one driver varies from one to another is the rutcho website. If you scan through the various drivers you can see the spectral waterfall plots that shows resonance (stored energy).
Loudspeaker Raw Driver Measurements

For example if we look at the older Foxtex FE108e∑ it has good decay in the upper treble.
Fostex FE-108 Sigma Fullrange Loudspeaker Measurements Data and Information Full Range

However if you look at a larger driver such as the Fostex FP-203 you'll see an unacceptable resonance at 10kHz
Fostex FP-203 Fullrange Loudspeaker Measurements Data and Information Full Range

I should note that all of these fullrange drivers exhibit pretty average burst decay results. I've attached a burst decay in ARTA that would be considered by most to be very good.

 

[scottjoplin]

As i suggested, interpretation is hard. You can see differences, but what do those differences sound like? Likely a tougher issue to sort than many that still remain unresolved.

dave

Are you suggesting they wouldn't sound similar to how they look, that is, small shifts of the resonances?

 

[scottjoplin]

Sibilance is causes by resonances in the upper treble which can be measured by looking at various acoustical measurements. Mainly it will show up in a cumulative spectral burst decay but it will also show as anomolies in the off-axis response. [/url]

Thank you very much Joseph, great information and examples 🙂

 

[Joseph Crowe]

This thread had about 4-10 posts a day for eight days straight, then I comment and the thread stops and there’s no more comments. I’m starting to develop a complex! Like that awkward silence when you walk into a room full of people! 😀

 

[GM]

Just now reading this and noticed your response plots [thanks!] highlighting the 'bleeding edge' of sibilance that the pioneer's more accurately called 'pierce', whereas the sibilance that ~defines how much sibilance is acceptable/wanted is centered around 7 kHz in the ~ 6-10 kHz 'definition' BW where many 'FR' drivers have some obvious peaking and makes my teeth hurt, though have noticed over time that many here want/need it apparently for good articulation. Guess my ~life long tinnitus is good for something.

Anyway, I'm way out of date as to which all drivers are smooth up top, but of the early CSS/MA, Fostex or similar all were too sibilant for me with the Jordan JX92S? smooth as a baby's bottom in a MLTL, almost too smooth really, so imagine its replacement is worth an audition if one doesn't have to buy it to try it.

GM

 

[KaffiMann]

It's tricky to get good on+off axis response at higher frequencies, even with a well designed 1" dome.
So using a 5" or larger cone is certainly not going to help.