Hi guys and gals,
I haven't been at all active on this forum really - I joined simply because I would very much like to build a set of loudspeakers that would compliment my system and leave room for future upgrades and that could relay the kind of quality I desire but without breaking the bank.
My current speakers are Epos M12i standmounts which I have owned for years. They simply do not cut it in my current system.
My system consists of
Musical Fidelity M3i integrated
MF M6CD CD player/DAC
MF X-LPS phono stage
Rega RP3 with Grado Gold cart and TT-PSU
Chord cables
As for my musical tastes, a 10 artist snap shot that is quite representative off the top of my head would be
The Mars Volta
Lissie
Miles Davis
Dido
Bad Religion
Bjork
Brandi Carlile
Alanis Morissette
Imogen Heap
Boards of Canada
I got myself a book, read loads on forums and various websites etc etc and I'm just more confused than ever. It's making me feel like an idiot. The science of it all is way beyond me. I just can't even begin to get into it.
What I would really like is for it to be as simple as someone saying to me stick woofer (a) and tweeter (b) in a really well built box like this with crossover (c) and there you have it! The box is the bit I CAN do. I am good with my hands and I make stuff all the time. I am a Master Pattern maker by profession. I work with all sorts of materials and have a huge workshop filled with machines including a 3-axis CNC mill and a 5"x10" CNC router. So the box shouldn't be a problem. It's the rest that baffles me.
I was looking at a single driver full range project enitially as I thought it would be the simplest but I just don't think it will give me what I want in terms of punch and power. The M12i that I have sort of give me what I want in this respect but they lack the bottom end extension, fine detail and imaging that should be available with my system.
I'm pretty open to designs though I would prefer a 2-way, design as either a medium/large floor stander or standmount. Build complexity in terms of cabinet construction doesn't bother me too much - though if it could be constructed out of MDF or birch ply I would be laughing as I have literally tons of the stuff.
How should I start this?
Please forgive me if my post seems a bit of a rant or something - reading it back I'm not sure if I've written the right thing 😡
Karl
I haven't been at all active on this forum really - I joined simply because I would very much like to build a set of loudspeakers that would compliment my system and leave room for future upgrades and that could relay the kind of quality I desire but without breaking the bank.
My current speakers are Epos M12i standmounts which I have owned for years. They simply do not cut it in my current system.
My system consists of
Musical Fidelity M3i integrated
MF M6CD CD player/DAC
MF X-LPS phono stage
Rega RP3 with Grado Gold cart and TT-PSU
Chord cables
As for my musical tastes, a 10 artist snap shot that is quite representative off the top of my head would be
The Mars Volta
Lissie
Miles Davis
Dido
Bad Religion
Bjork
Brandi Carlile
Alanis Morissette
Imogen Heap
Boards of Canada
I got myself a book, read loads on forums and various websites etc etc and I'm just more confused than ever. It's making me feel like an idiot. The science of it all is way beyond me. I just can't even begin to get into it.
What I would really like is for it to be as simple as someone saying to me stick woofer (a) and tweeter (b) in a really well built box like this with crossover (c) and there you have it! The box is the bit I CAN do. I am good with my hands and I make stuff all the time. I am a Master Pattern maker by profession. I work with all sorts of materials and have a huge workshop filled with machines including a 3-axis CNC mill and a 5"x10" CNC router. So the box shouldn't be a problem. It's the rest that baffles me.
I was looking at a single driver full range project enitially as I thought it would be the simplest but I just don't think it will give me what I want in terms of punch and power. The M12i that I have sort of give me what I want in this respect but they lack the bottom end extension, fine detail and imaging that should be available with my system.
I'm pretty open to designs though I would prefer a 2-way, design as either a medium/large floor stander or standmount. Build complexity in terms of cabinet construction doesn't bother me too much - though if it could be constructed out of MDF or birch ply I would be laughing as I have literally tons of the stuff.
How should I start this?
Please forgive me if my post seems a bit of a rant or something - reading it back I'm not sure if I've written the right thing 😡
Karl
I understand how you feel when you say you have the physical ability to build whatever it is, but don't fully appreciate how to go about designing what it is you want to build. I think this is the bane of pretty much every DIYer at some point and it is usually what drives us into learning a little more.
As you have realised however there is quite a lot more too this than initially meets the eye and indeed one could say that no one will ever be fully versed in every engineering nuance that could be considered relevant to design work. So what to do.
Luckily there are many designs out there, by a number of competent designers, that basically give you all the details that you require. That is a selection of drivers, a crossover design and a set of cabinet construction details.
The M12I is your typical 6" + 1" two way, that has the potential to do a lot right, but can be left lacking in certain areas, One of which is bass extension. There is simply only so much that a driver of that size can do. Adding to this it is quite demanding on both the tweeter and the woofer as to maximise everything about the design you need drivers that are well behaved and capable.
The M12i isn't your typical 6" + 1" though as it uses no crossover on the mid bass, a simple 1st order on the tweeter and uses a very high xover point. This is really sub optimal, but it has been one of Epos' trade marks for a very long time.
Now I know from experience that some of the music you listen to happens to contain quite a lot of synthesized, and very deep, bass. In my opinion you really want to step away from the 6" driver and go to something a little bit bigger, like your typical 8".
This imposes issues and pretty much mandates the use of a mid range if you want to get the most out of what you are going to build. By going this route you open up other advantages by being able to use a smaller driver for the mid that will naturally work better higher up, for the crossover to the tweeter.
To cut a long story short you'd probably be very satisfied with these.
Speaker Design Works
They use an 8",5 and 1" and are a relatively compact 8" design. They are a large stand mount type design, but there is nothing stopping you from extending the cabinet down to the floor, if you wish, although this will require a different port length.
The 8" RS225 and 1" RS28F are real gems as they cost very little, when compared to other big names, but punch way ahead of their price point. The only 'expensive' driver in this system is the NE vifa/peerless driver used as the mid, but it is a very nice driver.
The crossovers are relatively simple and use shallow slope filters, which is as close as you're probably going to get in a comparison vs the way the Epos do things, except that the Finalists crossover actually integrates the drivers at a proper frequency with proper out of band filtering.
There are of course more options than just this, but these would be pretty high on my short list if I was after a compact design with better bass than what you've got and a better mid and top end to boot.
As you have realised however there is quite a lot more too this than initially meets the eye and indeed one could say that no one will ever be fully versed in every engineering nuance that could be considered relevant to design work. So what to do.
Luckily there are many designs out there, by a number of competent designers, that basically give you all the details that you require. That is a selection of drivers, a crossover design and a set of cabinet construction details.
The M12I is your typical 6" + 1" two way, that has the potential to do a lot right, but can be left lacking in certain areas, One of which is bass extension. There is simply only so much that a driver of that size can do. Adding to this it is quite demanding on both the tweeter and the woofer as to maximise everything about the design you need drivers that are well behaved and capable.
The M12i isn't your typical 6" + 1" though as it uses no crossover on the mid bass, a simple 1st order on the tweeter and uses a very high xover point. This is really sub optimal, but it has been one of Epos' trade marks for a very long time.
Now I know from experience that some of the music you listen to happens to contain quite a lot of synthesized, and very deep, bass. In my opinion you really want to step away from the 6" driver and go to something a little bit bigger, like your typical 8".
This imposes issues and pretty much mandates the use of a mid range if you want to get the most out of what you are going to build. By going this route you open up other advantages by being able to use a smaller driver for the mid that will naturally work better higher up, for the crossover to the tweeter.
To cut a long story short you'd probably be very satisfied with these.
Speaker Design Works
They use an 8",5 and 1" and are a relatively compact 8" design. They are a large stand mount type design, but there is nothing stopping you from extending the cabinet down to the floor, if you wish, although this will require a different port length.
The 8" RS225 and 1" RS28F are real gems as they cost very little, when compared to other big names, but punch way ahead of their price point. The only 'expensive' driver in this system is the NE vifa/peerless driver used as the mid, but it is a very nice driver.
The crossovers are relatively simple and use shallow slope filters, which is as close as you're probably going to get in a comparison vs the way the Epos do things, except that the Finalists crossover actually integrates the drivers at a proper frequency with proper out of band filtering.
There are of course more options than just this, but these would be pretty high on my short list if I was after a compact design with better bass than what you've got and a better mid and top end to boot.
One of Jeff Bagbys designs would be a safe bet (He's a right clever bugger). The Kairos uses the some of the best drivers you can buy and his designs seem to go down very well at diy gatherings.
I know that Troels, Zaph and Jeff B all say that the (got to be careful how I word this) 2nd order L/R (acoustic obviously) crossover is the sweet spot. 1st order is too shallow and usually causes problems. 4th order L/R can still sound very good but 2nd order has the edge in terms of sound quality.
Because both of the SB Acoustic drivers used the the Kairos have nice, flat and extended responses, Jeff used a 2nd order L/R.
I know that Troels, Zaph and Jeff B all say that the (got to be careful how I word this) 2nd order L/R (acoustic obviously) crossover is the sweet spot. 1st order is too shallow and usually causes problems. 4th order L/R can still sound very good but 2nd order has the edge in terms of sound quality.
Because both of the SB Acoustic drivers used the the Kairos have nice, flat and extended responses, Jeff used a 2nd order L/R.
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This is certainly getting off to a good start! Thank you all so far. That first design seems to tick a lot of boxes for me in all but aesthetics lol.
Greets!
Well, a lot depends on the room, listening distance [Lp] and how loud you and/or the neighbors will tolerate [avg./peak SPL].
For instance, Miles Davis is the only music of yours I'm familiar with and I like to listen at ~ piano bar, Jazz Club levels, so a minimum of 85 dB at the Lp and since some recordings have up to +20 dB peaks, it’s 105 dB/Lp.
There’s some loss over distance also, losing up to 6 dB/doubling of distance, so with my Lp being ~4 m, this equates to ~ 12 dB + 105 dB = ~117 dB/Lp peaks. Stereo reduces it 3 dB, so ~114 dB/channel/Lp.
Using your amp with its ~19 dB of dynamic headroom, I’d need ~114 – 19 = ~95 dB eff. speakers at minimum, and even then there’s nothing left in the amp in case I want to ‘crank’ it a bit, so ideally I’d need ~98 - 101 dB efficient speakers and why in reality I have huge ~104 dB eff. speakers originally designed for a 75 W/channel tube amp.
Regardless, few two way cone/dome speakers can muster ~95 dB without multiple drivers, so consequently tend to be both large and quite pricey by most folks standards.
Before any meaningful recommendations can be presented then, we need to know your efficiency requirements, so ideally we need to know if any of the other music has > +20 dB peaks.
GM
The component that dominates sound quality is the speakers. I would agree that in your setup the speakers look by far the weakest link.
Why do you want an inevitably compromised 2 way particularly when you have established the bass is inadequate with your current 2 way? The best sound quality is typically achieved with something like 3 way mains plus multiple subwoofers placed around the room. Such a setup is not always practical but having it in mind when you are evaluating the cost vs benefit of lesser systems can help perspective.
I guess you are looking to build an existing design that you have confidence is well designed. If you can zero in on a type of speaker I am sure you will get plenty of suggestions. Some good and some not so good so sorting that will be the tricky part.
I agree that the aesthetics on the finalists aren't exactly super, but loudspeakers that house front firing 8 inchers tend to be somewhat squad looking.
You want better bass? You really have to go bigger than 6". Or add subs.
The finalists were designed to be easy to construct mind you. Now as long as you keep the cabinet width, the driver layout and the fact that the drivers are all mounted on one flat baffle, the same. You are free to add in round overs or small facets to improve the frontal visual all you want.
For example.
Kind of thing keeps the width of the speaker the same, but because the front baffle is faceted it has the subjective effect of making them seem far less squat. I would advocate smaller facets than that in the finalists though as they will change the diffraction of the tweeter and mid somewhat and the crossover isn't designed for that. But small ones would be absolutely fine.
You want better bass? You really have to go bigger than 6". Or add subs.
The finalists were designed to be easy to construct mind you. Now as long as you keep the cabinet width, the driver layout and the fact that the drivers are all mounted on one flat baffle, the same. You are free to add in round overs or small facets to improve the frontal visual all you want.
For example.
Kind of thing keeps the width of the speaker the same, but because the front baffle is faceted it has the subjective effect of making them seem far less squat. I would advocate smaller facets than that in the finalists though as they will change the diffraction of the tweeter and mid somewhat and the crossover isn't designed for that. But small ones would be absolutely fine.
Thanks for the info.
^ see now that is a nice design.
I don't have a problem with multiple drivers. I would not like to start having too add subs etc.
My room is pretty small. 14' x 14' x 8' ceiling. Sofa against one wall with a side table each sude, hifi/tv on the opposite wall. Nothing else in the room except a rug and the cats bed.
^ see now that is a nice design.
I don't have a problem with multiple drivers. I would not like to start having too add subs etc.
My room is pretty small. 14' x 14' x 8' ceiling. Sofa against one wall with a side table each sude, hifi/tv on the opposite wall. Nothing else in the room except a rug and the cats bed.
OK, then based on my listening habits I'd want the same ~95 dB efficiency at minimum, so either a large mid/tweeter horn or small tweeter horn and prosound wide BW mid, both with a prosound 15" would be my choice and frankly, there's normally lots of used prosound JBL or similar that will 'fill the bill' at reasonable prices, so DIYing may not be the way to go. Of course if you'll never listen this loud, then speaker efficiency can drop.
For instance, from research based on typical households, movie broadcasts are usually mixed for 81 dB average unless it's changed in recent years, so maybe 91 dB efficient will be enough.
GM
For instance, from research based on typical households, movie broadcasts are usually mixed for 81 dB average unless it's changed in recent years, so maybe 91 dB efficient will be enough.
GM
We drop the 2 way for sound quality reasons since you are not prepared to use subs and settle on a pair of 3 ways. Approximate price range: £500, £1000 or £2000? Narrow baffle like the drawing above, monitor or wide baffle?
ZDT3.5
That is looking like the sort of thing I am after in terms of size and form. Looks properly easy to build too.
I like the idea of a tower.
That is looking like the sort of thing I am after in terms of size and form. Looks properly easy to build too.
I like the idea of a tower.
Saying that though, I'd be really happy if I could just build something like a PMC Twenty 24 as they suit my taste and needs, just not my budget!
??? I guess I will have to leave you banging your head against a wall. That is a 2 way using the same size drive units as your current speakers but in a transmission line cabinet. It would probably cost a few hundred to build but will not have the bass or midrange performance of a competent 3 way.
Ignore my last post. My head is in a strange place today.
I have had a google for the ZDT3.5 for listening opinions but I can't really find anything that goes into much detail about how they actually sound in terms of detail and imaging/soundstage which is really important to me.
I know its totally different but I listen to my neighbours Martin logan electrostats and get so drawn in to the detail and placement of individual instruments it leaves me wanting some every time, but I think they would be difficult to live with. Narrow hot seat for listening, physically imposing and bloody expensive. Not really practical.
I don't expect to achieve that kind of resolution from something like the ZDT3.5 but I would like to know what sort of thing I could expect.
I have had a google for the ZDT3.5 for listening opinions but I can't really find anything that goes into much detail about how they actually sound in terms of detail and imaging/soundstage which is really important to me.
I know its totally different but I listen to my neighbours Martin logan electrostats and get so drawn in to the detail and placement of individual instruments it leaves me wanting some every time, but I think they would be difficult to live with. Narrow hot seat for listening, physically imposing and bloody expensive. Not really practical.
I don't expect to achieve that kind of resolution from something like the ZDT3.5 but I would like to know what sort of thing I could expect.
Your Epos M12i is an interesting, near crossoverless 6" polycone 2 way. It is evidently quite revealing, but would suffer from lack of bass and distortion on complex program IMO.
My own interest is 8" paper bass and cone tweeter which makes a nice Jazz speaker for Diana Krall or Norah Jones with a good bit of bass and a smooth top end and pleasant voices. Shown below. It's quite easy to design a 3.5kHz crossover for this sort of thing. Reflex and closed box both work well, albeit they sound different of course.
In a perfect world, I'd build a three way, which has much better midrange dispersion and speed along with all the other goodies from a big bass cone:
3-Way Classic
I suppose this is a modern take on the Celestion Ditton 33.
You could do worse than have a look around Troels Gravesen's site.
DIY Loudspeakers
The world is your oyster here, but Troels' site is more suited to Europe in choice of drivers.
My own interest is 8" paper bass and cone tweeter which makes a nice Jazz speaker for Diana Krall or Norah Jones with a good bit of bass and a smooth top end and pleasant voices. Shown below. It's quite easy to design a 3.5kHz crossover for this sort of thing. Reflex and closed box both work well, albeit they sound different of course.
In a perfect world, I'd build a three way, which has much better midrange dispersion and speed along with all the other goodies from a big bass cone:
3-Way Classic
I suppose this is a modern take on the Celestion Ditton 33.
You could do worse than have a look around Troels Gravesen's site.
DIY Loudspeakers
The world is your oyster here, but Troels' site is more suited to Europe in choice of drivers.
Attachments
Have you read THIS thread?
I'd personally choose a Zaph design over a Troels but only because Troels tilts the frequency response down towards the high frequencies. Most loudspeaker manufacturers do the opposite and it's something I've found I prefer too. When you think a lot of the sound you hear is reflected, coupled with the fact that drivers beam at high frequencies, I can understand why a lot of well regarded commercial designs often have a rising response at high frequencies.
I'd personally choose a Zaph design over a Troels but only because Troels tilts the frequency response down towards the high frequencies. Most loudspeaker manufacturers do the opposite and it's something I've found I prefer too. When you think a lot of the sound you hear is reflected, coupled with the fact that drivers beam at high frequencies, I can understand why a lot of well regarded commercial designs often have a rising response at high frequencies.
I am not sure "detail" has an accepted meaning but in a positive sense it might be related to an absence of distortion. Larger drivers help here by having to move only a small amount to generate a given SPL compared to a smaller driver. Multiple drivers also help reduce intermodulation distortion by giving each driver a small frequency range to handle. However people have speculated that what some are calling "detail" is actually significant distortion.
The quality of "imaging/soundstage" primarily follows from the quality of the stereo effect on the recording. Sitting close to the speakers in order to reduce the relative strength of the reflected sound compared to the direct will enhance the effect. Diffraction off surfaces in the room can interfere with the effect such as a wall near the head, chair back, objects near the speakers and to some extent the speaker shape. It usually not a strong function of the speakers themselves.
I am not trying to have a go but to point out why speaker designers may be shying away from using some of the vague terms audiophiles tend to use.
Without knowing quite what you are listening for it is hard to say. You might get some idea by comparing a 2 way and a 3 way from a competent brand like B&W, KEF,... in a hi-fi shop. The Dayton drivers are good value in the US but less so here in Europe.
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