Of course Terry. Listen very carefully, I shall say 'zis only once! 😀 ...
A/B switching is for amateurs.
I guess that means you don't buy into that ABX nonsense and all that 'silly science' behind it! Ha, ha ...
Of course not, my attention to a certain component is on much more personal level. 😎
Somehow I knew you would say that. That is exactly why you "think" you hear differences, because you are relying on memory to compare. This allows for "selective hearing". Now that I know how you are evaluating it is very clear to me why you think you can hear differences. Name calling does not make you right, it just reveals your character.
Blessings, Terry
If a system good enough most of the time I can hear it if I or someone exchange a Pc of wire in the signal way. Here Ièm not talking about iron wires copper or silver.
At the beginning 30 years ago when I started to listening (audiophile products hardly noticed, heard any difference between audio components)
People around me do you hear these or that spoke to each - other at high-end show or other places I didn't understood what they are talking about!
It was all Greek to me!.
You can exercise your ear.
We DIY-ers have to have a Etalon (amp, speaker etc) and compare to that our new stuff.
Sometimes if one component from the system sound (bad- sharp, muddy, clouded etc) that can eliminate to hear the differences between audio component.
I know some people disagree with me but that can be a speaker cable, interconnect, or just one or more of the audio component.
If all sound the same or very close to each-other we must find out why. Can be my ear to! Other wise no reason to spend $$$$ to get better and better stuff.
If anybody canèt hear the difference I advise to get a decent system and enjoy the music. Stop DIY because you waste a lot of your time, money, energy etc.
I wrote these not to criticize anybody please nothing personal.
If you have different opinion please respect mine, I respect yours and let s be in peace. Life is short to argue over things we supposed to enjoy!
Greetings
At the beginning 30 years ago when I started to listening (audiophile products hardly noticed, heard any difference between audio components)
People around me do you hear these or that spoke to each - other at high-end show or other places I didn't understood what they are talking about!
It was all Greek to me!.
You can exercise your ear.
We DIY-ers have to have a Etalon (amp, speaker etc) and compare to that our new stuff.
Sometimes if one component from the system sound (bad- sharp, muddy, clouded etc) that can eliminate to hear the differences between audio component.
I know some people disagree with me but that can be a speaker cable, interconnect, or just one or more of the audio component.
If all sound the same or very close to each-other we must find out why. Can be my ear to! Other wise no reason to spend $$$$ to get better and better stuff.
If anybody canèt hear the difference I advise to get a decent system and enjoy the music. Stop DIY because you waste a lot of your time, money, energy etc.
I wrote these not to criticize anybody please nothing personal.
If you have different opinion please respect mine, I respect yours and let s be in peace. Life is short to argue over things we supposed to enjoy!
Greetings
Of course Terry. Listen very carefully, I shall say 'zis only once! 😀
I don't need A/B switching setup because it is completely wrong way to evaluate sound quality of a component/system. Switching among two amplifiers interrupts music flow in a way you'll never know how certain detail heard on one amplifier would sound in a previous connected amplifier, because this detail appears only once and it cannot be repeated. A/B switching brings more confusion than real evaluation.
Correct way of evaluating components is to listen certain part of the track, lets say 30 s to 1 min or so and then listen exactly the same part on the other component. We can remember this kind of sequencing even if there's a minute or more between the component switch. But this kind of test brings integrity and a lot more of our involving in that part of the test track. And complete method of evaluation goes through 1-5 or more completely different tracks to get even more impression about sound quality.
A/B switching is for amateurs.
Totally I agree with that!!
Terry, Terry is again completely wrong.
Look I had an opportunity to test seven different top sh.. OP amps in my DAC output and after a week or more I positively remembered a SQ plus character of a certain OP amp which was the best for me as a second try. After seventh change of all different OP amps I wished to have the sound of a second attempt and guess what, after a week I put it in the second tried OP amp again and I recognized it immediately and I don't want any of the remaining six to put in ever.
So much about our SQ memory ...
Look I had an opportunity to test seven different top sh.. OP amps in my DAC output and after a week or more I positively remembered a SQ plus character of a certain OP amp which was the best for me as a second try. After seventh change of all different OP amps I wished to have the sound of a second attempt and guess what, after a week I put it in the second tried OP amp again and I recognized it immediately and I don't want any of the remaining six to put in ever.
So much about our SQ memory ...
I have clear memories of participating in extended ABX listening tests when I was working for DTS. DTS was polishing on the IP that later came to be known as their NEO:X product. What I remember most was when the visual cues were removed I began to doubt myself and questioned if I truly was hearing a difference. That experience was very enlightening and made me realize that what we think we hear as humans is grossly influenced by what we see, setting expectations for what we think we hear.
In another test that was characterized as testing the audible qualities of two integrated amps the exact same circuit was put in an expensive looking machined aluminum chassis and in a simple painted box with labels made with a hand squeeze printer. Nobody was told that the circuits internal were identical. When the test subjects knew which box was in the circuit (and these were people who thought of themselves as 'golden eared') they consistently decided that the shiny expensive looking box sounded better. Clearly what these golden eared listeners heard had been influenced by what they saw on the table next to them.
In another test that was characterized as testing the audible qualities of two integrated amps the exact same circuit was put in an expensive looking machined aluminum chassis and in a simple painted box with labels made with a hand squeeze printer. Nobody was told that the circuits internal were identical. When the test subjects knew which box was in the circuit (and these were people who thought of themselves as 'golden eared') they consistently decided that the shiny expensive looking box sounded better. Clearly what these golden eared listeners heard had been influenced by what they saw on the table next to them.
Even if you use A-B switch please listen to the same track listen to that special 30-60sec of that track.
For evaluation I like to use CD player, the time counter make my life that much easier.
Any other way A-B test just waste of time.😀
Greetings
For evaluation I like to use CD player, the time counter make my life that much easier.
Any other way A-B test just waste of time.😀
Greetings
The method I use is seamless and does not rely on memory. That is the method I will continue to use. I will be a lot more careful to report my findings because there are designers around who use alternate methods that allow them to draw their own conclusions. I will not argue about this again.
I agree, most people influence of what they see greater than what they hear. So, keep good looking 😉
But ear frequency response can be different. There is a medical test about it. I have a friend who can not hear anything above 13 kHz.
Terry you can use A-B test but please ask someone to skip back to that special 30 or 60sec. and listen that again and again.
You can ask your helper to not to tell you which amp you listening to.
In that case you are not influenced by knowing these or that amp is on that time.
Just an advise.
Just to switch between the two ap and the track keep running that not a listening test.
At least not to me.
Greetings
You can ask your helper to not to tell you which amp you listening to.
In that case you are not influenced by knowing these or that amp is on that time.
Just an advise.
Just to switch between the two ap and the track keep running that not a listening test.
At least not to me.
Greetings
Terry I believe purely in ABX too it's just impossible for me to set anything up that could do that in a meaningful way with my system being what it is. The main stereo pair uses 8 channels of amplification so it's complicated.
One thing I do believe very much in though is suggestibility. I know that if something I've built isn't measuring up to standard that I will not be 'happy' with that piece of equipment until I've ironed out all the bugs. This has a direct influence on the way I perceive the thing to sound and I am happier (obviously) when something is working up to par.
One thing I do believe very much in though is suggestibility. I know that if something I've built isn't measuring up to standard that I will not be 'happy' with that piece of equipment until I've ironed out all the bugs. This has a direct influence on the way I perceive the thing to sound and I am happier (obviously) when something is working up to par.
it is futile to argue when comparing "personal" experiences...
what you enjoy on your "personal" level is what matters the most, not the say so of anyone else, me included....😀
knowledge is acquired thru experience, not by what another tom and dick or harry said...😉
Of course Terry. Listen very carefully, I shall say 'zis only once! 😀
I don't need A/B switching setup because it is completely wrong way to evaluate sound quality of a component/system. Switching among two amplifiers interrupts music flow in a way you'll never know how certain detail heard on one amplifier would sound in a previous connected amplifier, because this detail appears only once and it cannot be repeated. A/B switching brings more confusion than real evaluation.
Correct way of evaluating components is to listen certain part of the track, lets say 30 s to 1 min or so and then listen exactly the same part on the other component. We can remember this kind of sequencing even if there's a minute or more between the component switch. But this kind of test brings integrity and a lot more of our involving in that part of the test track. And complete method of evaluation goes through 1-5 or more completely different tracks to get even more impression about sound quality.
A/B switching is for amateurs.
LC, I agree with the approach with regards to listening a 30s to 1 min and then listen exactly the same part on the other component. But! The exercise must be "blind". Human brain works in a way that you tend to prefer something, based on your knowledge and experience. So in a "clean" evaluation, especially if the difference is rather subtle, you must not know which amp is playing when. You have to repeat those 30 s listening exercises in a random order, register the results and then calculate statistics. If statistics show something close to "normal distribution", then you can't identify the difference.
Otherwise, if the test is not blind, your opinion is biased, even if you don't want it to be biased or convince yourself it is not biased 🙂
So, correctly organized totally blind A/B switching test is not for amateurs. It's rather for professionals 😉
Never thought about, but i agree. And use the same method than you. More than this, I need a little time of silence, between two listenings of the same musical part. To fix my feelings.
I make several listening of the same parts, on each appliance to be compared, at different levels, concentrating on a detail, attack, decay, separation, localisation, fluidity, dynamic etc... And, i usually finish the comparison by a "non attentive" listening, may-be from out of the room.
At the end, i need several hours of 'normal' listening of many records i know to get a definitive opinion.
I usually use recordings that i know very well, chosen for a specific detail i want to figure out. The nails on an acoustic guitar, the hammers on a piano, his size, the 'tear' of a brass section, the skin and stick on a drum, the 'body' of a cymbal, the way a special acoustic or electronic reverberation is perceived etc...
I had listened to a lot of various amplifiers of various technology (and other studio gears) . Some are very close to each others, not often found two identical.
About blind or not, i really don't care: i don't want to fool myself, and, because my choices had professional consequences, err is a mistake. On an other way, if something is not obvious, i forget the supposed differences, and just consider them as negligible. If not, you can turn crazy, when you have to chose components.
Now, it is not about any kind of 'golden ear'. It is a question of 'culture', to can discriminate what you are looking to.
I had the chances to met some famous 'noses'. You know, the guys who create perfumes, able to list all the components of an existing one, and name-it immediately. One was even smoking. They all explained that they do not smell differently than you or me.
Just they know the smell of all the components of any perfume, that you and me don't. So they are able to recognize them.
In the same spirit, specialists of wines do not need immediate comparisons to can say even the year and place of fabrication of a unknown wine.
Just my two cents...
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As i was unable to answer during 7 days (read my lips), i was unable to make several remarks about VAS currents some used to drive their Lateral, and some strange results about quiescent currents in the OPS i had read.
Even using a single pair of output devices, 5mA is far to be enough to can feed in class A the parasitic gate capacitances of a MOSFET OPS.
~ 15ma in the VAS for a single pair is what you need to do not run out of current at 20Hz. (as the levels of upper HF are much lower, it will be good, even at 100Khz in normal conditions). This will avoid TIM.
Too, you have to compare the way musical details are reproduced, between a single pair plus a single VAS driving them, and an EF to drive several output pairs, adding a pole. Not sure the second is always the winner. And why, when a single pair of power MOSFETs can produce up to 150/200W /8 Ohms ?
About internal resistance of the power Mosfets, i don't think it is an issue: the damping factor of an amp is done by the GFB.
About quiescent currents, Laterals do not need a temperature compensation stage. One of their advantages. And they usually sound the best at the point where their transonductance/temperature curve is flat, ie ~100/150ma. If you want to compare them with BJT, you need both to adapt their quiescent and to remove the temperature compensation stage. Note that 150mA will keep your amp in class A at normal listening levels and loudspeakers with a good efficiency (95db/w).
Hoping it helps.
Even using a single pair of output devices, 5mA is far to be enough to can feed in class A the parasitic gate capacitances of a MOSFET OPS.
~ 15ma in the VAS for a single pair is what you need to do not run out of current at 20Hz. (as the levels of upper HF are much lower, it will be good, even at 100Khz in normal conditions). This will avoid TIM.
Too, you have to compare the way musical details are reproduced, between a single pair plus a single VAS driving them, and an EF to drive several output pairs, adding a pole. Not sure the second is always the winner. And why, when a single pair of power MOSFETs can produce up to 150/200W /8 Ohms ?
About internal resistance of the power Mosfets, i don't think it is an issue: the damping factor of an amp is done by the GFB.
About quiescent currents, Laterals do not need a temperature compensation stage. One of their advantages. And they usually sound the best at the point where their transonductance/temperature curve is flat, ie ~100/150ma. If you want to compare them with BJT, you need both to adapt their quiescent and to remove the temperature compensation stage. Note that 150mA will keep your amp in class A at normal listening levels and loudspeakers with a good efficiency (95db/w).
Hoping it helps.
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