Tell this to singer, sound engineers and musicians of world's top record "Despacito" (really good music and sound), who made it using audiophile-grame cables MOGAMI, based on the early scientific articles from Japan about skin-effect in audio :
Source:
MOGAMI® - Luis Saldarriaga engineered the #1 hit "Despacito" using all Mogami Cable
"Hi-Fi Cable NEGLEX 2803 & 2804 - Historical Review
Part No. 2803 and 2804 are dif?cult to manufacture and have a very low yield rate. So we can make relatively small amounts of them. These present the paradox that if they became very popular it would take too many factory resources which could be used more pro?tably in making other products. Frankly most companies would discontinue them as too much trouble for the revenue they generate.
How they came about and why we have continued production for so many years is an interesting story.
The reader must remember that for many years it was assumed that audio cable did not affect the sound of audio systems. This is taken for granted by most people today.
Then, back in April 1974 Mr. Akihiko Kaneda of Akita University presented in the technical magazine for amateur "MUSEN TO JIKKEN" (Wireless & Experimentation) that the sound quality of an ampli?er could be changed even by wire or cable. Further, sonic effect was assumed to be caused by skin effect, and also made worse by the common tin plate over copper structure.
At the same time, audio critic Mr. Sabro Egawa presented his experimental results in a music magazine
"Record Geijyutsu" (Record Art) in its December, 1975 issue that the sound quality is different between speaker cables, and he pointed out the possibility of its relation to skin effect as well.
These two statements that I called "Kaneda-Egawa prospect" were in error in the following points:
It is against common sense of electro-acoustical engineering (we knew electrical characteristic of a cable cannot change sound and skin effect at audio frequencies is extremely low, un-measurable in level.) Since it referred to the electrical property which caused difference in sound de?nitely as skin effect, it could become a veri?cation and argument subject with
non-ambiguous electrical engineering."
Source:
http://www.mogamicable.com/pdf/Mogami_Tech_cat2014.pdf
About a billion (now 7 BILLION) downloads on YouTube of this song:
“Despacito” on YouTube was played billions of times—but hardly made any money — Quartz
"It was only, in actuality, streamed 1.9 billion times on these services, meaning it raked in around $15 million. Add in YouTube's $3.2 million payout, and that's a total of $18.2 million in total streaming money—nowhere near $38.6 million".
No skin-effect in audio?
The Absolut Sound magazine.
"A Short History of High-End Cables"
BLOGby Dick OlsherAug 02nd, 2019
A Short History of High-End Cables - The Absolute Sound
"The status quo was shattered by the publication of several articles. In Japan it was Akihiko Kaneda at Akita University (1974) who argued that sound quality of a speaker/amplifier interface could be impacted by wire or cable. He suggested that this could be caused by the skin effect whereby current is progressively pushed to the skin layer of a conductor at increasing frequency, an effect made worse by the common practice at that time of tin-plating copper wire. Soon thereafter, in 1975, the late great Japanese audio critic, Saburo Egawa (1932–2015), practically started his audio career with the publication of listening test results showing sonic differences between different speaker cables. At Japan’s Mogami Cable, Koichi Hirabayashi was determined to prove Egawa wrong. But after extensive listening tests he became convinced that despite its apparent minimal theoretical effect over the audible bandwidth, skin effect does play a rather large role in perceived sonic differences. The end results of his research were the Mogami 2803 interconnect and 2804 speaker cable."
"A Short History of High-End Cables"
BLOGby Dick OlsherAug 02nd, 2019
A Short History of High-End Cables - The Absolute Sound
"The status quo was shattered by the publication of several articles. In Japan it was Akihiko Kaneda at Akita University (1974) who argued that sound quality of a speaker/amplifier interface could be impacted by wire or cable. He suggested that this could be caused by the skin effect whereby current is progressively pushed to the skin layer of a conductor at increasing frequency, an effect made worse by the common practice at that time of tin-plating copper wire. Soon thereafter, in 1975, the late great Japanese audio critic, Saburo Egawa (1932–2015), practically started his audio career with the publication of listening test results showing sonic differences between different speaker cables. At Japan’s Mogami Cable, Koichi Hirabayashi was determined to prove Egawa wrong. But after extensive listening tests he became convinced that despite its apparent minimal theoretical effect over the audible bandwidth, skin effect does play a rather large role in perceived sonic differences. The end results of his research were the Mogami 2803 interconnect and 2804 speaker cable."
Well, that explains where that erroneous stuff came from.
First, skin effect was misidentified as the culprit. It was not. Proximity effect is much worse.
Second, that tin plating worsens skin effect. It does not do that at audio frequencies, it actually reduces the effect because of lower conductivity.
Only when the frequency is high enough that the current resides only in the plating will skin effect really increase resistance drastically.
It's interesting to see how far back some of these errors go.
Jn
First, skin effect was misidentified as the culprit. It was not. Proximity effect is much worse.
Second, that tin plating worsens skin effect. It does not do that at audio frequencies, it actually reduces the effect because of lower conductivity.
Only when the frequency is high enough that the current resides only in the plating will skin effect really increase resistance drastically.
It's interesting to see how far back some of these errors go.
Jn
Well, it's good for a seasonal yuk or two.
OK, in fairness, if we kick up wire loop resistance, we're going to impact behaviour ('quality') albeit not for any of the mystical reasons usually touted. And with my generous hat on, Dick Olsher did note the highly impressive change in sound quality brought by the old Polk Cobra -largely as a result of the excess capacitance putting enough amplifiers into uncontrolled oscillation they released the magic smoke.
Attachments
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Wow, 1974 Vintage BS.
Thanks to this ever lasting snake oil.
Yeah, I just poked my head in here to briefly see the "typical" comments and arguments, opinions and bias, knowing full well this is just another one of those "wire threads" that other audio sites sadly feature.
I'm certainly not going to go through all the pages, I've done enough of that on other websites - it's always the same babble.
People are going to believe what they want to believe - particularly when they read some so-called "famous authority's article" somewhere on the internet, and treat it as a biblical final word.
Scottmoose,Well, it's good for a seasonal yuk or two.
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I don't know how I could ever trust anything you post anymore.....the driver is on the wrong side of the car!!!!
I was always laughing when visiting London, seeing the crosswalks with painted words telling pedestrians to look to the RIGHT!!! I mean, duh!
Thankfully, I as a stupid American, saw that. Multiple times it saved my life.. I assume it was idiots like me getting run over that prompted that signage.
I don't think I could ever get used to that. Bad enough driving a moped in Bermuda..
Jn
In other words You claim that if something does not exits "in textbooks", then it does not exist at all !
This is something new in modern science and engineering !
What century are you from?
16-th?
You have just burned Giordano Bruno?
What do you know about science?
If you are from our times, who gave you diploma?
O-o-ps, sorry, wrong question.
Proper question :
Have you ever visited any University?
I am asking because you and other sceptics here, applying "textbook questions" know nothing about science, or scientific method:
"The scientific method is an empirical method of acquiring knowledge that has characterized the development of science since at least the 17th century. It involves careful observation, applying rigorous skepticism about what is observed, given that cognitive assumptions can distort how one interprets the observation. It involves formulating hypotheses, via induction, based on such observations; experimental and measurement-based testing of deductions drawn from the hypotheses; and refinement (or elimination) of the hypotheses based on the experimental findings. These are principles of the scientific method, as distinguished from a definitive series of steps applicable to all scientific enterprises.[1][2][3]"
Scientific method - Wikipedia
All sceptics here are making assumptions that all stages of scientific process can be done in 2-3 days, and should be published in next month. They know nothing about modern science.
All their questions should be provided to fat cats Sony and Toshiba with millions $$$ and huge measurement equipments/resources they own.
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Alex Ra,
You're new in town, aren't ya.
Some of my work product is SOTA currently. And it was done 23 years ago.
Stuff I do today will eventually make it's way into university teachings.
Nature of the beast w/r to my employer and what I am called upon to do.
Many here are true experts in what they do, mine just happens to be E/M stuff, diode stuff, motion control stuff. I would never argue with a doctor using googled information, or a pilot on how to land a plane.
Edit: to answer your "have I ever visited a University". The answer is yes, I have. I think the last time was Cornell University, as an expert consultant to help them solve a problem with some of their accelerator magnets. But that was about 15 years ago. Now my consult work is all zoom... CERN, APS, IHEP, KEK...you know, national labs around the planet..
Pps.. toshiba, LOL. About 15 years ago they worked with another national lab to duplicate one of my machines for making particle accelerator magnets. Foreign nationals sneaking into the facility, taking all kinds of pictures of my machines.. ten years later that national lab purchased 45 magnets from us... I'm sure they were smart, but they do not understand the collaborative effort we used to achieve our goals. We had a really good team.
Jn
You're new in town, aren't ya.
Some of my work product is SOTA currently. And it was done 23 years ago.
Stuff I do today will eventually make it's way into university teachings.
Nature of the beast w/r to my employer and what I am called upon to do.
Many here are true experts in what they do, mine just happens to be E/M stuff, diode stuff, motion control stuff. I would never argue with a doctor using googled information, or a pilot on how to land a plane.
Edit: to answer your "have I ever visited a University". The answer is yes, I have. I think the last time was Cornell University, as an expert consultant to help them solve a problem with some of their accelerator magnets. But that was about 15 years ago. Now my consult work is all zoom... CERN, APS, IHEP, KEK...you know, national labs around the planet..
Pps.. toshiba, LOL. About 15 years ago they worked with another national lab to duplicate one of my machines for making particle accelerator magnets. Foreign nationals sneaking into the facility, taking all kinds of pictures of my machines.. ten years later that national lab purchased 45 magnets from us... I'm sure they were smart, but they do not understand the collaborative effort we used to achieve our goals. We had a really good team.
Jn
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The main method of modern engineering (based on math/physics formulas) is:
"Knowledge of some principles easily compensates the lack of knowledge of some facts".
(C) Claude Helvetius.
I have provided a theorem ( Ageyev's theorem) that states, in simple words, that any (tight) bunch of low frequency harmonics from 10 Hz... to ... 20 Hz can oscillates (at some time to time) as often as 20 000 Herz sinusoid.
And therefore, for sure, can have high gradient, equal to 20 kHz signal.
This is described in textbooks back from 1950-1960 year.
This is a key point of modelling of polyphonic musical sound.
The skin effect is caused not by AC frequency, but by an ACCELERATION of electrons, which is for sure depends approximately on frequency. This is also described in textbooks.
If anyone combine these two simple textbook facts, he/she will easily understand the skin-effect in wires.
Who is Ageyev?
Look at your smartphone right now. Do you see it? Does it work?
It works because professor Ageyev invented orthogonal modulation in 1939 - it is called now CDMA.
Later he invented linear-independent modulation - it is called ADSL now.
Dmitry Vasiliyevich Ageev - Wikipedia
I think it is pretty enought.
Other questions - directly to Sony and Toshiba.
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Unfortunately if expressed that way, the statement about the skin effect is incorrect, as the effect exists in a cable always if used for transmission above DC (usual conditions assumed), as you know.
@ Alex Ra,
nondirectional velocity of electrons is always quite high (at fermi velocity if contributing), so it seems to be the superimposed AC that leads to the skin effect.
If I remember the models correctly ....
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Alex RA,
You didn't know that the velocity of electrons in normal conductors is in the mm/second range at high currents?
Where are you getting this stuff?
Skin effect is the redistribution of current density as a consequence of eddy current toroidal loops which add to the transport current at the surface and subtract at the center. The eddy toroidal loops are a consequence of rate of change of internal magnetic fields generated as a result of Faraday's law.
I truly recommend you find a good textbook, this stuff I learned back in '74.
Jn
You didn't know that the velocity of electrons in normal conductors is in the mm/second range at high currents?
Where are you getting this stuff?
Skin effect is the redistribution of current density as a consequence of eddy current toroidal loops which add to the transport current at the surface and subtract at the center. The eddy toroidal loops are a consequence of rate of change of internal magnetic fields generated as a result of Faraday's law.
I truly recommend you find a good textbook, this stuff I learned back in '74.
Jn
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