Here is a link to a brand new YouTube video just released today from Audioholics that discusses well controlled blind speaker testing by some experts on the subject. One of them is Sean Olive from Harman who along with Dr. Floyd Toole has been a pioneer in the field and is a well respected expert.
The Dishonesty of Sighted Listening Tests vs Double Blind - YouTube
I think that this should pretty much put most of the posts in this forum from uncontrolled test into their proper perspective as nothing more than subjective opinions and not to be taken too seriously by others.
The Dishonesty of Sighted Listening Tests vs Double Blind - YouTube
I think that this should pretty much put most of the posts in this forum from uncontrolled test into their proper perspective as nothing more than subjective opinions and not to be taken too seriously by others.
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Yes, but then the arguement becomes, you can't possibly hear those differences, they're far too small in the overall scheme of things.
And exactly what do these other experts have to say about blind testing, which was the context of my comments about Amir, Toole, and Olive?
Do you think that these other experts you referenced disagree with the experts I listed? I don't know, because I didn't see any comments from them about it.
My guess is that they would agree, but if you find out anything otherwise by all means let me know.
Do you think that these other experts you referenced disagree with the experts I listed? I don't know, because I didn't see any comments from them about it.
My guess is that they would agree, but if you find out anything otherwise by all means let me know.
They've said a lot of things over the years, as you can imagine, quite a bit on this forum too, and their views have changed too. But some are of the view that blind testing, although it has it's uses, is not the be all and end all. I think that is the main take away, it has it's limitations, like anything else.
I am very familiar with the work of Dr:s Toole and Olive, thank you. Their work is pretty much base knowledge if you have any serious interest in speaker building.
Appealing to authority is not how science is debated and appealing to youtubers like Amir certainly not. Neither does appeal to ‘common sense’ and proving the negative.
The premise of your argument holds the same intellectual merit as “if it was be true I would believe it”. You have so far completely failed to provide a single rational evidence based argument on the subject you yourself raised. From a science based point of view I come away non the wiser from reading your thread.
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It is not my definition of confirmation bias, it is the generally accepted definition.
Confirmation bias Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com
About 50 years ago I went to an AES (Audio Engineering Society) seminar where the presentation was about the audibility of power supply capacitors in power amplifiers, therefore "capacitor sound" has been under scientific investigation for at least half a century. A cursory search in Google Scholar turns up plenty of published papers detailing the mechanisms of nonlinearities in capacitors. Any nonlinearity is potentially be audible under the right circumstances.
Below I have linked some peer reviewed research papers, two published in the Journal of the AES and one published on IEEE Access (the online journal of the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers). The first concludes unequivocally that capacitors in crossovers can have significant audible effects. (Unfortunately only the first paper linked accesses the paper in full; the other two are not open access.)
Non-linear distortions in capacitors
Many people have claimed that capacitors have a notable influence on the audible quality of systems. We have identified one of the major causes of non-linear distortions in capacitors. Charging the capacitor will result in an attractive force acting on the conducting plates. As no material is infinitely stiff, this force will reduce the thickness of the dielectricum and thus increase the capacitance. This process occurs in both phases of an AC signal in the same way and is thus non-linear. In this paper the consequences of this process are discussed. It should be noted that other passive components like resistors and inductors can also show similar non-linear behaviour.
We will show that these kind of effects can lead to severe intermodulation distortion in passive cross-over filters as applied in loudspeakers.
http://temporalcoherence.nl/cms/images/docs/AES%20124-paper.pdf
Audio Capacitors. Myth or Reality?
This paper gives an account of work carried out to assess the effects of metallised film polypropylene crossover capacitors on key sonic attributes of reproduced sound. The capacitors under investigation were found to be mechanically resonant within the audio frequency band, and results obtained from subjective listening tests have shown this to have a measurable effect on audio delivery. The listening test methodology employed in this study evolved from initial ABX type tests with set program material to the final A/B tests where trained test subjects used program material that they were familiar with. The main findings were that capacitors used in crossover circuitry can exhibit mechanical resonance, and that maximizing the listener’s control over the listening situation and minimizing stress to the listener were necessary to obtain meaningful subjective test results.
AES E-Library >> Audio Capacitors. Myth or Reality?
Electrical noise generated from the microphonic effect in capacitors
Passive components such as capacitors and inductors are often used in high-frequency circuits. EM engineers often model the frequency response of these components by adding "parasitic" components to the circuit model. For instance, parasitic resistors and inductors are added to the model of a capacitor. Some capacitors also exhibit an electrical response when stressed physically. This response can be significant. This response is called the "microphonic effect" because the frequency of the response is often in the audible range. A simple operational amplifier circuit is used to examine this response for several off-the-shelf capacitors. Considerable variation is observed-depending on capacitor type, capacitor size, and physical location.
Electrical noise generated from the microphonic effect in capacitors | IEEE Conference Publication | IEEE Xplore
@airvoid +1
@johnmath, I'm not entirely happy with your post. I will now have to make time to read it all 🙂
@johnmath, I'm not entirely happy with your post. I will now have to make time to read it all 🙂
That is what I an trying to say, most capacitor rolling is useless...
I think I agree with you (?)
"Watch the video that I referenced in Post #137. Then you can decide for yourself if most of the opinions being offered here that aren't based on well controlled testing are of any real value or not."
I think I agree with you (?)
"Watch the video that I referenced in Post #137. Then you can decide for yourself if most of the opinions being offered here that aren't based on well controlled testing are of any real value or not."
I find it a good thing that this thread isn't locked down yet. Now if only both sides would actually hear each other that would be marvelous.
We don't have to be in separate camps here. All it takes is to keep your mind somewhat open to possibilities and have some respect for the other side.
I'm a measurement type myself, raised to think as an engineer by education and work, I stepped into this hobby using those work ethics and stick to changing one variable at a time. Taking measurements of each step on my way. But those measurements show me what I measure. It might not tell the whole story.
I do read and listen to the experimenters, and when in doubt I run my own experimentation. That has taught me that I can't explain everything away with the commonly used measurements. We simply don't know it all yet.
How do we explain dynamics in measurements? Lots of theory out there, very few answers...
Without science we wouldn't have music reproduction, that's clear. But there's nothing wrong with some experimentation, hopefully somewhat controlled. Even in science some things happen by accident. So stay open and listen to each other... keep an open mind!
We don't have to be in separate camps here. All it takes is to keep your mind somewhat open to possibilities and have some respect for the other side.
I'm a measurement type myself, raised to think as an engineer by education and work, I stepped into this hobby using those work ethics and stick to changing one variable at a time. Taking measurements of each step on my way. But those measurements show me what I measure. It might not tell the whole story.
I do read and listen to the experimenters, and when in doubt I run my own experimentation. That has taught me that I can't explain everything away with the commonly used measurements. We simply don't know it all yet.
How do we explain dynamics in measurements? Lots of theory out there, very few answers...
Without science we wouldn't have music reproduction, that's clear. But there's nothing wrong with some experimentation, hopefully somewhat controlled. Even in science some things happen by accident. So stay open and listen to each other... keep an open mind!
Attachments
Play with your toys as you wish. If experimenting with caps in a crossover filter looks like fun to you, soar like an eagle. It is very far removed from the power plug so it should be fairly safe.
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There must be a deep seated doubt that comes to a head in order for one to want to start a thread like this……the need of peer support when having thoughts about going to the dark side.
Classicalfan, just get yourself a set of speakers for experimentation and a handful of different brand caps to try (they don’t have to be expensive as you seem to believe) I suggest trying this with a simple first order filter on a tweeter (just a series cap)….. I’ll bet members here would send you some from their cap stash for free if money is the problem.
Afraid you might find something and become one of US !?
And don’t say you haven’t the time for such drivel……..you’ve already shown you have plenty of free time. 😀
Classicalfan, just get yourself a set of speakers for experimentation and a handful of different brand caps to try (they don’t have to be expensive as you seem to believe) I suggest trying this with a simple first order filter on a tweeter (just a series cap)….. I’ll bet members here would send you some from their cap stash for free if money is the problem.
Afraid you might find something and become one of US !?
And don’t say you haven’t the time for such drivel……..you’ve already shown you have plenty of free time. 😀
How people spend their hard-earned is entirely their choice.
As I've put in another post on this forum, there are some film capacitors here (Oz) which retail for $600-$800 each: if someone wants to use them and can hear the difference, or think they can hear a difference, between those and a good quality Janzten Cross Cap which costs $12, fine.
I've chosen to go with whatever the designer recommends and have never been disappointed in the sound. For example, I built Paul Carmody's Classix II and the XO parts cost about $140. Would they really sound better, or even different, if I'd spent $300 on the XO parts? Given my age and hearing range, I doubt it; and if I had that much extra money to spend, I probably would have built his Amigas.
It must be confusing for newbies to the hobby/obsession, - as I was some years ago - to sort out what's desirable or necessary for them to enjoy what they're going to build. If, say, several experienced people in forums say 'use electrolytic for any application, they work fine', and other experienced people say 'electrolytic are rubbish, you need to spend at least $60 on a film cap for your speaker to sound good', who do people new to the hobby believe?
This point isn't just about caps: some people will say binding posts are rubbish, or that you have to use 'oxygen free x gauge wire', or premium resistors, or heavy duty expensive power leads or whatever else is flavour of the month. Again, very confusing to newbies, who might well say 'stuff this DIY for a lark, I'll just buy a retail pair instead'.
Just my five cents' worth (two cents aren't legal tender here any more!)
Geoff
As I've put in another post on this forum, there are some film capacitors here (Oz) which retail for $600-$800 each: if someone wants to use them and can hear the difference, or think they can hear a difference, between those and a good quality Janzten Cross Cap which costs $12, fine.
I've chosen to go with whatever the designer recommends and have never been disappointed in the sound. For example, I built Paul Carmody's Classix II and the XO parts cost about $140. Would they really sound better, or even different, if I'd spent $300 on the XO parts? Given my age and hearing range, I doubt it; and if I had that much extra money to spend, I probably would have built his Amigas.
It must be confusing for newbies to the hobby/obsession, - as I was some years ago - to sort out what's desirable or necessary for them to enjoy what they're going to build. If, say, several experienced people in forums say 'use electrolytic for any application, they work fine', and other experienced people say 'electrolytic are rubbish, you need to spend at least $60 on a film cap for your speaker to sound good', who do people new to the hobby believe?
This point isn't just about caps: some people will say binding posts are rubbish, or that you have to use 'oxygen free x gauge wire', or premium resistors, or heavy duty expensive power leads or whatever else is flavour of the month. Again, very confusing to newbies, who might well say 'stuff this DIY for a lark, I'll just buy a retail pair instead'.
Just my five cents' worth (two cents aren't legal tender here any more!)
Geoff
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Those are both extreme views, hopefully people new to the hobby aren't new to hearing extreme views and so should be able to easily dismiss both.
😀 you lost fun part....
I past for you :buy 20$ of caps and make some test you will learning something really.....
TRY
Why would I want to do all of that when I'm perfectly happy, in fact thrilled, with my speakers just the way they are?
And please don't give me the argument that "you don't know if you don't try." It's a silly one when there is no need for change.
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