@ClasssicalFan
Your stated position is clear and you have empiricism on your side. However, what you don’t have on your side is the very “real” experience of all who disagree with your position.
Just as it’s much easier to go to a street performer and watch a coin “disappear” (and perhaps continually fail to guess where it went) than it is to read (and comprehend) what theoretical physics posits as the obstacles to teleportation of physical matter, you are up against the difficulty of the average person to setup a controlled double-blind ABX test vs simply swapping out a device and listening for (expecting) a change.
A thread such as is this is an attempt to square a circle that is near impossible to square in such a relaxed environment.
Even if you succeeded in convincing every single person who initially disagreed with your position to see things your way, your job would only be half-done; you would still have the insurmountable task of convincing them that their own subjective experiences was their mind fooling them. No easy feat!
If you’re a regular drinker, no beer tastes better than the one you have after a month of abstaining. Does it taste better than the last one you had a month prior? Absolutely! Does it empirically taste better? Impossible to determine in a universally satisfactory way.
The difference is psychological; some “thirst” for occasions to listen for a change in the performance of their gear after some minor tweak. Now, perhaps, they are listening more closely so they are hearing more.
While I have never been to mass, I have been to musical performances that gave me a taste of what the religious might consider the “sublime.” I cherish those experiences and have no interest in objective accounts of what transpired on those occasions. I know what I felt. Perhaps the same has happened to you.
Please understand that I am not disagreeing with you, I am merely suggesting there are occasions where one has to make peace with the behavior of oneself and occasions where one has to make peace with the behavior of others. In this instance I think it’s the latter.
Stay safe.
Your stated position is clear and you have empiricism on your side. However, what you don’t have on your side is the very “real” experience of all who disagree with your position.
Just as it’s much easier to go to a street performer and watch a coin “disappear” (and perhaps continually fail to guess where it went) than it is to read (and comprehend) what theoretical physics posits as the obstacles to teleportation of physical matter, you are up against the difficulty of the average person to setup a controlled double-blind ABX test vs simply swapping out a device and listening for (expecting) a change.
A thread such as is this is an attempt to square a circle that is near impossible to square in such a relaxed environment.
Even if you succeeded in convincing every single person who initially disagreed with your position to see things your way, your job would only be half-done; you would still have the insurmountable task of convincing them that their own subjective experiences was their mind fooling them. No easy feat!
If you’re a regular drinker, no beer tastes better than the one you have after a month of abstaining. Does it taste better than the last one you had a month prior? Absolutely! Does it empirically taste better? Impossible to determine in a universally satisfactory way.
The difference is psychological; some “thirst” for occasions to listen for a change in the performance of their gear after some minor tweak. Now, perhaps, they are listening more closely so they are hearing more.
While I have never been to mass, I have been to musical performances that gave me a taste of what the religious might consider the “sublime.” I cherish those experiences and have no interest in objective accounts of what transpired on those occasions. I know what I felt. Perhaps the same has happened to you.
Please understand that I am not disagreeing with you, I am merely suggesting there are occasions where one has to make peace with the behavior of oneself and occasions where one has to make peace with the behavior of others. In this instance I think it’s the latter.
Stay safe.
In the first post, @classicalfan gave perfectly logical and valid explanation why some capacitors sound different - loudspeaker frequency response obviously will be different if you put 12 microF instead of 10 microF crossover cap (20% tolerance). Subjectively, that easily will be perceived as a sound difference.
After 122 posts, still no one here attempt to disprove it (it can't be disproved, by the way). But I am still puzzled why everyone started to argue that different capacitors brands with essentially the same capacitance (2% or 5% tolerance) do sound different, when that was not the point of the first post???
After 122 posts, still no one here attempt to disprove it (it can't be disproved, by the way). But I am still puzzled why everyone started to argue that different capacitors brands with essentially the same capacitance (2% or 5% tolerance) do sound different, when that was not the point of the first post???
It's the question that matters, not who said it. Can you answer it, you need to if you want "proof", how else will you know it when you see it?
Way over half of the world population believes in a higher power without proof……..I don’t see this as such a stretch.
JM, what percentage of a involved group would have to agree on something to make it overwhelming?
I use the term ‘involved’ as in familiar with…..not just randomly asking on the street.
Maybe we should do a blind poll to see where our members stand, yes I believe there to be differences/no I believe differences are impossible/ maybe differences are possible
I have no idea how to set one up but I’ve seen plenty of threads with polls.
JM, what percentage of a involved group would have to agree on something to make it overwhelming?
I use the term ‘involved’ as in familiar with…..not just randomly asking on the street.
Maybe we should do a blind poll to see where our members stand, yes I believe there to be differences/no I believe differences are impossible/ maybe differences are possible
I have no idea how to set one up but I’ve seen plenty of threads with polls.
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Well, I don´t.
No problem in letting Subjectivists and True Believers live inside their tiny caves of assumed beliefs, who cares?
Why waste my time?
I love it when someone is looking at an unidentified can in one hand, and has a can opener in the other
I'll go along with what you want. IMHO it's going to be difficult getting meaningful data.
What was your intention on your previous post?.... "While it's understood that people don't always measure their capacitors and that's why they hear a difference, do you think there is a real difference.. something that you cannot explain or prove, and believe it because it's the word on the street, or because you had a strange experience once?"
I'm sure there's a way.
I'll go along with what you want. IMHO it's going to be difficult getting meaningful data.
What was your intention on your previous post?.... "While it's understood that people don't always measure their capacitors and that's why they hear a difference, do you think there is a real difference.. something that you cannot explain or prove, and believe it because it's the word on the street, or because you had a strange experience once?"
I'm sure there's a way.
It's a little hard to judge when he edits the first post as the thread goes along. It may be that something in the tone of his original post is what subsequent posters were reacting to.
As far as I can tell none of the posts here claiming a difference in sound based on capacitor brand comparisons have been done with controlled blind testing. As a consequence the test results being reported are without any merit whatsoever.
But don’t just take my word for it. Watch this video by a real expert on the subject:
Audio Blind Testing - You Are Doing It Wrong! - YouTube
But don’t just take my word for it. Watch this video by a real expert on the subject:
Audio Blind Testing - You Are Doing It Wrong! - YouTube
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Caps do sound different and if you have not tried them then you do not really have an opinion. You claim that if you can't measure it you can't hear it or something to that effect.
I claim you are measuring the wrong thing! Science does not have all the answers, however they did manage to prove that a bumblebee can't fly.
You also display an unpleasant and confrontational online demeanor. You state you are not prepared to try in the face of many who have and can hear these things. We do not need double blind testing nor do we need to prove anything. You started the thread so the onus is on you to provide proof.
You are doing yourself a disservice by rejecting the possibility of upgrading the caps and will always wonder what you are missing. Bagby's designs are detailed and clean providing you with a solid platform for experimenting. I helped a friend assemble his Bagby designed Kairos crossovers and suggested he use a better cap in series with the very fine tweeter. A comparison was made and the standard cap was shown to be very good but fell short of the reasonably priced Mundorf Supreme.
But be of good cheer, you have been promoted to the top of my ignore list.
I claim you are measuring the wrong thing! Science does not have all the answers, however they did manage to prove that a bumblebee can't fly.
You also display an unpleasant and confrontational online demeanor. You state you are not prepared to try in the face of many who have and can hear these things. We do not need double blind testing nor do we need to prove anything. You started the thread so the onus is on you to provide proof.
You are doing yourself a disservice by rejecting the possibility of upgrading the caps and will always wonder what you are missing. Bagby's designs are detailed and clean providing you with a solid platform for experimenting. I helped a friend assemble his Bagby designed Kairos crossovers and suggested he use a better cap in series with the very fine tweeter. A comparison was made and the standard cap was shown to be very good but fell short of the reasonably priced Mundorf Supreme.
But be of good cheer, you have been promoted to the top of my ignore list.
That statement is absurd and reveals a great deal about how seriously someone should take any of your remarks. I certainly don't.
Try telling that to the serious scientists and researchers who test drugs for human consumption with well controlled double blind testing. Maybe you can advise them so that they don't have to work so hard at their testing.
If you really want clarity on this subject watch the video by Amir using the link to it in my last post above.
And if you expect me to believe that you or any of the others here is smarter and understands audio reproduction better than he does I'm afraid you are going to be very disappointed.
Nonsense! That myth is proved wrong, long time ago.
The Bumblebee Flight Myth — Animal Dynamics
(PDF) Wing Rotation and the Aerodynamic Basis of Insect Flight
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